Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco-related Timeline 1740 - 1881 (Nov. 19 2021 22:13:18)
|
quote:
I agree with that...but riffed on what? Fandangos, Soledades, Playeras, all have characteristics that flamenco inherited. If we can agree that Joaquin de Paula 2 is a known cante melody, we next must agree that the Ocon score is showing THAT style (that might be a problem based on the rest of your message), and from that accept that this known melody has some other origin other than Joaquin (not only because he was not born yet but because we know all the solea are somehow related to something older melodically speaking, since they all ask for the same chord structure and rhythm). So I am saying she “riffed” or interpreted in her own way, whatever that might mean, the known song that is now understood as the root of Solea. Making up lyrics that work I hope is understood. Sometimes they (melody style and lyric set) work as a unit but I also hope you understand that they don’t HAVE to. My point is her melodic interpretation might have been slightly off or unique compared to the older known melodies (called Soleadad or not, we don’t really know), plus her version and lyric delivery or creation of new lyric might constitute the attribution…not a literal creation of a new melody and form. Soledad and Playeras as TITLES of music pieces don’t have ANY flamenco characteristics for sure because we don’t even know WTF they were!!!!! Well, we have the score books and to me it is clear what has what characteristics, but I will get to that. quote:
I respectfully agree to disagree and most of the scholars working on these problems are in agreement that there is a shift from soledades as a popular idiom to soleares as a flamenco idiom. For me the question is not who created flamenco, but rather, where do the traces of the different cultures that are usually said to be embedded in it originate. And can we discover them? Some of them we know... I don’t know how they could agree on such a thing if they don’t even know what the darn music was. And I don’t get the difference between “popular” and “flamenco” as separate…since flamenco is from the “people” in the region anyway. The implication there is solea evolved from some universal popular folk music then became focused and elitist “flamenco”? If that were the case the origins would be more known and obvious. Like seguidilla (popular and known and obvious) to siguiriyas (strange, exotic, small group of people doing it). The word yes, the music no freaking way, they are not related at all. quote:
He is 41 when he publishes Cantos in 1874. If you read backward in time, that soledad looks little like soledad that we know. Oscillation between I-II-I, accompanying a c in the melody with E major or Dm/FM7, resolving to CM over a g in the melody, etc., no resolution on 3 as in the bulerias por solea. If on the other hand you look at the baroque guitar strums, the accents that changing a harmony on beat two produce, it looks just as much baroque as flamenco. Wow, ok, so you don’t see what I am seeing at all. This is a huge problem because this is not subjective IMO, the elements I described were crystal clear. The guitar part has two or three extra threes and a missing three situation….THOSE are subjective things to argue. But the objective thing, which is the important thing, is the overall picture and its detail of alignment to practice. So how can I proceed? I would start with asking you to please up load examples of how you would accompany Santiago donday or Moneo from the Cante accomp thread as a start, to make sure we are on the same page regarding guitar and cante alignment in general. I don’t mean that to be condescending because it is a way to communicate the deeper meaning of the form IMO. The next is to take it measure by measure and explain how I am interpreting the score. I mean the ONLY thing I would alter to the score would be those odd 3 groups (which may have either been errors of the guitarist or ocon’s memory, impossible to know). And one of the first falsetas has a half compas phrase that I might repeat to make it cuadrao, but honestly I could leave that in too. The quarter-note chords with drum roll marks can be interpreted with rasgueados of choice (Castro Buenadia messed up with an opportunity there). So, for now I will address your points directly: 1. Accompanying a C in the melody? There is no C target note in the cante of this style (I say Joaquin 2). The C is signaling the drop down to A which is the target. The deliver is a bit late because the A lands on 10. The guitar seems to be ignoring it but the F chord is the normal 1,2,3 thing, but we can think of it as the 7-10 half compas. The guitar returns to E on 10. Hopefully you know how typical that is? E remate can be 456 OR 10 11 12 anytime. So it is arbitrary except the SINGER starts on 9, so we interpret that as 3 because of what happens next. 2. Resolving to Cmajor over a g in melody. I could show examples upon examples but for a start the Juan Talega performance of Joaquin 2 that is both on Norman’s page as exemplary and Carol Whitney transcription which you can SEE it emphasized with F# to boot. Pastora has examples of this too, Cagancho etc. Listen out for the sung G in the cambio there are gazzillions more examples brother. 3. When you realize the word “Caida” was the cambio above, it means the compas of the singing is a bit late so the guitarist waited, much like moraito does, to put it on the 1,2,3 of the next cycle. If you counted (or felt) that half compas between the repeat of the first line of verse correctly, then you can see what happened here. If you didn’t count it correctly and ignored the cante and compas alignment, then the C is 789 and F comes on 10. I hate to say it but that is not subjective, that is simply the wrong way to view it. It is reasons like that that flamencos are rolling there eyes at people that count the compas. If the guitarist had played the C a half compas earlier, it would have been the annoying type of anticipation thing singers hate. You are supposed to FOLLOW the singer not lead him. 4.The down beats of each 3/8 bar are 12,3,6, or 9. The chord changes on beat 2 you see correspond to our 1,2,3 or 7,8,9 10 phrases depending on what is going on because they bounce off the 12 or 6 accent. When they bounce off 3 it is either because of the 4,5,6 remate, OR the half compas situation. The odd 3’s would have to assigned a number that breaks the 12’s or 6’s patterns. I just want to add, I am glad there are no stupid andalusian cadences in the thing!!! [:D][:D][:D][:D]
|
|
|
|