RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Full Version)

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JasonM -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 12 2020 1:44:01)

quote:

It’s called Flamenco!!!!


Mr. Marlow, this is just another negative consequence of playing the fakemenco. [:D] But that is seriously a good story about the braces falling off and throwing them away I literally laughed out loud on that one ! And now I am again just typing this. Does this mean braces are overrated ?



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 12 2020 4:58:54)

quote:


Mr. Marlow, this is just another negative consequence of playing the fakemenco. But that is seriously a good story about the braces falling off and throwing them away I literally laughed out loud on that one ! And now I am again just typing this. Does this mean braces are overrated ?


That’s one of the best stories I’ve heard about braces. Apparently braces are only important to kids with gappy crooked teeth, and dentists.



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 12 2020 15:34:14)

I plan on drawing this out in excruciating detail in order to exhaust your patience!

This is my way of gluing the head veneer to the headstock. The veneer is planed and scraped, then the angle of the headstock is planed across the end grain edge that the nut gets fit against. I use this nice carpenters speed square as a stop for the veneer to be trued up to so the veneer is square on the center line etc

This is funny because showed this before several years ago and this dude picked a fight with me about it. He was this French guy ( Ricardo might remember) who was a Conde Man and everything else sucked balls. It was during the time I was relentlessly pounding Ricardo about Conde parking cone orange, because he was making fun of my comments about being mad when people asked if rosettes were stickers.

This dude really got in my face and told me my way of gluing the head veneer was all wrong. Then some other guitar makers told him its a way to do it and it works what’s the problem? He got really nasty and sent private messages that said my wife was a whore and I had a stupid dog. I didn’t have a dog and my wife may cost me a lot of money, but she’s no whore.

I finally sent copies of the messages to Simon and he kicked the guy off the site.
So if you have anything bad to say to me, I doubt you will be as bad as the French Conde Man



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estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 12 2020 15:35:38)



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estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 12 2020 15:37:17)

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estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 12 2020 15:40:27)

I think the Gekko’s that live around my kobo are getting fatter because I moved my bench in front of a window. At night they hunt the bugs that come to the light on the window. It’s like a nature drama happening- the life and death of gnats.



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JasonM -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 12 2020 22:14:26)

quote:

then the angle of the headstock is planed across the end grain edge that the nut gets fit against


Do you clamp the veneer to the headstock with a smidge overhang and plane it on the neck ? or shooting board?



ernandez R -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 13 2020 1:31:34)

First thing I noticed here was how the closing lower struts seemed to be much closer to the bridge, or rather, there was more of an unsupported area of the top plate aft of them.

Also the forward end of the sound bars were up against the lateral brace. Tapered at that end?

It would seem any lifting of the top, domeing? Would come from the unsupported bottom of the lower bought but that would depend how it was thicknesed?

A lot of good food for thought regardless and nothing like a wholesome food fight ;)

Ok, another sip of some bad box red Cab and I'm thinking, could the lower two struts work as a sort of Brouchet bar?

HR

Edit: would like to see the bridge position on the diagram.


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The top bracing- here’s a rough guide-
I have to make a new plexiglass half template for this model from the tracing and notes I took, but fast and dirty this is what we’re dealing with.




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ernandez R -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 13 2020 1:48:36)

I just flip the whole stack over after gluing a touch long in the nut side and smoke with the table saw. It's a fine line between a hero and an **** though ;)

Being the Flamingo heretic I am I also preglue my fretboard onto the neck as well and square up the whole nut notch with one blow or rather three strokes: fretboard and headstock veneer. Sacralidge? Don't get me wrong, I'm not that smart, If I was I would not have made up two necks for my 666mm Mk-IV Flamencas 650mm. Oy... Anyway I made up a second set in record time and this was how I came up with clearing out my nuts using the table saw.

HR


quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

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estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 13 2020 4:18:25)

quote:

then the angle of the headstock is planed across the end grain edge that the nut gets fit against


Do you clamp the veneer to the headstock with a smidge overhang and plane it on the neck ? or shooting board?



I do it the first way you mentioned. I lay the neck on the bench and push the head veneer out over it then clamp it there. Trim the end grain by laying the plane on its side and making shallow passes.

It’s so odd to me that the book by Bogdanovich shows him using a tiny expensive Japanese skew plane to cut the end of the head veneer right before he glues the fingerboard on. It’s so needlessly finicky when you can just do it with a block plane.

Here’s a tip about planing end grain, wet it by dipping your finger in water ( or that grown cold cup of tea ) and pass your finger over the end grain you want to plane. The water softens wood fiber and the blade will not micro chatter through the end grain.

Violin family instruments are built with the corner and end blocks oriented vertically so trimming the blocks to the rim of the ribs requires considerable end grain planing. They do it by touching a wet finger to the end grain. We all know end grain is hard to plane because its comprised of layers of alternating hardness, and the plane at a micro level stutters through the layers ( even a pretty sharp plane) so wetting a tiny bit makes the layers closer in hardness.

Some people will tune a plane up to the place it will it will not chatter, but on a practical every day level I’ll wet the end grain rather than stop and do Uber plane sharpening. And that’s what pro violin makers do to.



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 13 2020 16:37:40)

I’m such a slouch, hacked these out like hippie carving a clown sculpture with a chainsaw.
Onto refinement... ho hum



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estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 13 2020 16:43:26)

This is my middle girl, K2 is her name. She’s the second kitten I picked up off the street and when she was little she climbed on me so I named her K2 - kittten #2 and after the famous Himalayas peak K2. My next cat will be Annapurna- Maybe

K2 is a vital part of my household. There are five adults living here and K2 is the stress reliever because she’s so mellow and likes everyone.



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JasonM -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 14 2020 3:53:23)

quote:

My next cat will be Annapurna- Maybe


Or Kathmandu for a boy

Nice Pro tip on the end grain planing!



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 14 2020 6:05:32)

quote:

Or Kathmandu for a boy


I see what you did there



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 14 2020 6:51:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:


Mr. Marlow, this is just another negative consequence of playing the fakemenco. But that is seriously a good story about the braces falling off and throwing them away I literally laughed out loud on that one ! And now I am again just typing this. Does this mean braces are overrated ?


That’s one of the best stories I’ve heard about braces. Apparently braces are only important to kids with gappy crooked teeth, and dentists.



I remember playing a 1a Paulino Bernabe at Ivor Mairants's shop in London, some time in the 1970s. It had only one brace, a fairly hefty one on the center line of the top. I played a 1a Contreras there that day too. A friend had asked me to bring him a first class Spanish classical, cost was not a really big deal, time was a fairly big deal.

I couldn't get to Spain on that trip, so I brought my friend a 1a Ramirez from Mairants's shop. The markup wasn't too stiff, and I liked the sound of the Ramirez a lot better than the other two.

I remember it had the fret board tapered off on the bass side on the higher frets, as did a lot of Ramirez's of that era, and it would have had a 660-664mm scale. Mairants claimed Segovia liked them that way. It made for a very high action on the 5th and 6th strings above the tenth fret, but my friend never complained.

He regularly played a steel strung Martin 12-string, so he had a Herculean left hand.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 14 2020 13:15:57)

quote:




I remember playing a 1a Paulino Bernabe at Ivor Mairants's shop in London, some time in the 1970s. It had only one brace, a fairly hefty one on the center line of the top. I played a 1a Contreras there that day too.


One brace? Seems a bit excessive.



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 14 2020 15:49:06)

For whomever wanted to see where the bridge goes in relation to braces



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Richard Jernigan -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 15 2020 1:38:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:




I remember playing a 1a Paulino Bernabe at Ivor Mairants's shop in London, some time in the 1970s. It had only one brace, a fairly hefty one on the center line of the top. I played a 1a Contreras there that day too.


One brace? Seems a bit excessive.


Maybe so. I remember the guitar sounding a bit harsh for a classical, but that was a long time ago.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 15 2020 11:48:52)

Rosette outtakes-

This one is flawed, I haven’t decided to use it yet. It’s meant to be used on the design I created two years ago which is a small body classical in the spirit of early - and pre Torres Spanish work.
Two problems, there are still enough period guitars from mid 19th century around to make players invest in older guitars and have them refurbished into playing condition. Which is cool. Second problem, I can’t find a tuner set suitable for the period or a set that’s lightweight enough not to kick the body off balance when the neck, so I only offer it with pegs. Fine for you guys, but classical folks who are not committed period players balk.

I’m not sure I like this one too much, but eventually I’ll make another of the small guitars with this. It’s meant to be a contemporary take on those old wide roses of the mid 19th century.



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 15 2020 15:46:42)

Better photo



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Ricardo -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 15 2020 16:50:36)

quote:

For whomever wanted to see where the bridge goes in relation to braces


Won’t that position change depending on the scale length? Or do you always build 660mm?

(Nice sticker above!)



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 15 2020 21:19:31)

quote:


Won’t that position change depending on the scale length? Or do you always build 660mm?


The bridge position on the top should remain the same by simply shortening the length of the top at the 12th fret for a shorter scale........This will shorten the box a little but retain the basic pattern, as I understand it.

I find Steve's tutorial very interesting.



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 16 2020 3:17:02)

quote:



The bridge position on the top should remain the same by simply shortening the length of the top at the 12th fret for a shorter scale........This will shorten the box a little but retain the basic pattern, as I understand it.

I find Steve's tutorial very interesting.



I don’t think so, the bridge changes location very slightly on the top in relation to scale. This is a fundamental guitar design convention. If you changed the shape of the upper bout where the body and neck join you’d have to redraw the plantilla every time you use a different scale.

It’s more like this:

Bodies or plantillas with back lengths of around 19-1/4” are suited to longer scales in the 655 to 665 range, they all work by splitting the difference at the 12th fret and leaving the plantilla the same size.

Bridge placement only varies 5mm in either direction if you look at 660mm scale as a median mensure for a 19-1/4 “ back. If you then use a 655 you will move the bridge a few mm towards the sound hole- because you automatically correct for compensation of the intonation and hold the bridge back a couple mm anyway.

Then if you are using 660 as a median and want to use 665 or 666(!) then you move the bridge a few mm lower for the scale and then a few more for compensation.

What this means, and I could draw you a chart with exact numbers, is that in relation to the body join point at the top of the plantilla, the bridge is only moving in a very limited space. Because half the expansion of the system is taken up by the neck getting longer- the point where the stretch happens is the 12th fret.

To dramatize it, if you have a 650 scale and want to increase it to a 660 scale you look at what half a 650 is: 325mm The length from nut to 12th fret is 325mm
Change to 660 and the distance from nut to 12th fret increases to half of 660: Which is 330mm - the distance between nut and 12th increased by 5 mm that’s equally distributed between frets ( let’s just say that it is )

How much does the bridge move away from the 12th fret between 650 and 660?

It moves 5mm

No Big deal - add compensation it moves about 7mm also no big deal.

It’s not a big deal because that much variation in placement does not effect the sound, you may think it does, but it doesn’t ( I can get into it later on that point)

So what’s the solution?

It depends on where you wants to break the 19th fret with the edge of the sound hole, because there is ‘slop’ in the system to move the sound hole 2 or maybe 3 mm up or down to change the visual relationship between sound hole and saddle.

Think about it.

Another solution is to use a slightly smaller plantilla for the 640 to 650 range guitars. All you need to do is have a plantilla with a 19” back length and the bridge location situation is less important. This back length works well for slightly shorter scales.


The problem is one of those things that you solve by drawing plantillas and looking at scale length, sound hole radius, where the 19th fret intersects with the sound hole and other small design details. The reason some guitar makers designs have a beautiful proportion or ratio as a whole is because they looked at all these design conditions and worked out beautiful sets of compromises to create a whole instrument with graceful continuity between all the parts.



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 16 2020 3:28:33)

I build whatever scale the customer wants, but myself I prefer 660 or 665.

This next year I have an order for a 630 mm scale classical and most Japan based dealers like 640 scale guitars, and above 650 mm guitars are very unpopular, except for a few pro flamenco players- who are rare. And those guys are getting guitars in Spain.
For the smaller scales I have plantilla sets which fit those scales better visually and the back lengths vary between 18” to 19-3/8”
Back length being the point that determines how the 12th fret or center of the scale is located in relation to the sound hole etc.


But see my ramble above, bridge placement on the top is more a visual thing than a sonic thing, moving the bridge a 5 mm or more in either direction does not impact sound as much as you think it does. This has been studied.



Ricardo -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 16 2020 18:36:37)

Thanks for that, I realize now my analytical mind thought it had stumbled on a system of guessing a guitars scale by eyeballing the distance between bridge and soundhole, but it’s BS...and I realize I was going off two extreme examples in my collection that had “sloppy” soundhole placement after all. The 670mm has a baby fret and therefore an enormous space between bridge and hole, and the 650mm guitar has an enormous 19th fret on which I could play the note on the G string whose name I dont’ even KNOW!! [:)][:D]

Ricardo



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 16 2020 22:37:56)

quote:

I don’t think so, the bridge changes location very slightly on the top in relation to scale. This is a fundamental guitar design convention.


Thank you, and also I have a new cat that looks very close to your cat, for the past 2 years.[8|]



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 17 2020 1:42:56)

Is the scale length to body fit all clear for everyone?



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 17 2020 8:49:39)

quote:

The 670mm has a baby fret and therefore an enormous space between bridge and hole, and the 650mm guitar has an enormous 19th fret on which I could play the note on the G string whose name I dont’ even KNOW!!

Ricardo


I think that note is a D



estebanana -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 17 2020 15:18:16)

Ok let’s see what can be done with this. Tomorrow I will throw together this rosette- it’s going to be black, dark navy blue, white, brown and have diamond motif tile. Very simple,



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JasonM -> RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso (Sep. 17 2020 21:20:38)

quote:

This next year I have an order for a 630 mm scale classical and most Japan based dealers like 640 scale guitars,


Classical Guitarist: "Hey Guys!! Do you like my new 630mm scale guitar? Its sooo much easier to do stretches AND it feels nice and comfy between my legs!!"

Flamenco Guitarist:




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