kitarist -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Oct. 22 2020 2:39:51)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo quote:
When literally translated, they indicate respectively second place, third place, fourth place and fifth place. It is believed that this 'place', in the context of medieval music, referred to the position of the respective finalis ("tonic") of these modes, in relation to a fundamental pitch, on the fingerboard of lute-type instruments. (though now that original meaning is not operative as there is no fundamental pitch; just pitch relations and melodic rules). Right, well you quoted from before my last post. The name “segah” was the third place note NAME, for whatever 8 note scale the ancients used, yes. The first place was called yegah. The point was they used that name, and chargah (4th place) for the Turkish Rast makam to call it’s third degree...which just so happened to be slightly flat in Rast. In my mind, if you start a mode or tonic on an off tuned pitch, then what is REALLY happening is ALL THE OTHER DARN NOTES ARE ACTUALLY SHARP!!!!! This is before you apply any “rules” to your music. This simply logic. If a musician does not accept this it what is happening for “segah” makam or whatever, then, simply put, something ELSE is happening musically than they think it is. IE, segah is not actually TONIC it’s simply a relationship they want to experience relative to something else...to me it is clear already that “something else” is actually Rast. A quick summary [of the relevant parts] of what I've been reading so I can get to what you wrote. This 53-note scale is such a misleading concept (I can see now where Mavi was coming from). There were about one and a half dozen notes or so used historically (similar to the Persian and Arabic practices; they are all related). The 53-note division is a purely synthetic creation because someone wanted to have a regular-sized interval grid such that all music notes used would land on that grid. Since the comma (22-24 cents) was the smallest such interval, it meant that the regular grid has to have that as its 'step'. Since about 9 commas make a whole tone, this meant the creation of a VERY SPARSE regular interval grid on which all notes lay, but which is about two thirds empty: while it has 53 spots per octave, only about a third of these at most are 'real' in the sense of actual practice. So why a comma? Because the notes were constructed so that the octave and fifths are pure/just (and so are the fourths), meaning ratios of 2:1, 3:2 (702 cents), and 4:3 (498c) respectively. Then fifth minus fourth makes a 9:8 whole tone interval T, 204 cents. A fourth minus two whole tones gave a limma L (90 cents) as a semitone. So a tone T is two L semitones plus another 23.5 cents - a Pythagorean comma. (Also the major third (408c) in this is too sharp by a synthonic comma, about 22 cents, from the 5:4 just major third.) Mansur Zalzal, a famous eighth-century lutenist, introduced a fret between the second (wusta) and the third (binsir) finger frets, to produce a neutral third relative to open string, about 350 cents (so about halfway between a minor and a major third). Thus the quarter-tone offset from the eventual equal-temperament notes, about 2 commas and a bit. If starting from G open string, this is the Bd note; if starting from C open string, it is the Ed note. Different regions at the same time and at different times may have slightly different Bd or Ed notes by having it flat, compared to equal temperament, by 1, 2 commas or in-between. But everyone listening can apparently tell which 'mode'/'colour' the music is in, so the differences do not matter for the purposes of distinguishing the musical 'colours'. I guess this is analogous to if different peoples regionally can see slightly different hues of, say, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, but all can understand which general colour is being referenced. quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Anyways your Brief musical examples have no hope but to project as C major regardless of what the gurus want. There are a ton of better ways to make the ear hear segah as tonic IMO. I don't understand why - the examples were basically repetitions of the Ed note and dancing around it but always coming back to it. And secondly, what are these better ways to hear Ed as a tonic?
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