Looking for good book on music theorie (Full Version)

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Schieper -> Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 3 2020 14:29:01)

Hi all,

any recommendations on a good book on music theorie. For beginners and not to boring [if that is possible]. I am a predominantly self thought guitarist, learned by spending 1 distanced summer learning "sweet child of mine" guitar sole from tab and recording 2 power-chord/distortion songs.

Anyway, I am looking for that whole chord building, notes, A7, with dominant 5th stuff.

I always have been completely dazzled when people use 4 chord songs and than none pentatonic scales fit into that...

I hope you get the point. Also, as I only can read tab, I would like to find a way how to learn to read music. Al help welcome :-)



Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 15:36:58)

Hey amigo. When I was a teen in your exact position, with only advantage perhaps I took drums in 6 grade and learned to read rhythmic rudiments, two doors opened for me that I literally learned in two days.

1. Three note per string diatonic scales. There are 7 overlapping patterns. Start with C major (no sharps and flats) and discover your fingerboard completely. Before you try to learn the same 7 patterns in any other key, refer to 2.

2. The circle of 5th and what it means. My teacher drew it on the black board and explained it was more than a memorization tool, it’s literally a window into how music works in terms of keys, chords, scales etc. Wiki has a picture and explanation but the difference is my teacher would target a position, as if you could turn the wheel, and circled the equivalent of the 11 oclock, 12, and 1 o’clock positions, called the 6 note names “chords”, outside majors, inside minors, and explained how a song in a key uses or can use those 6 chords. Light bulbs went off. Modes might be using the 12 o’clock named scale with the 11 o’clock major chord, it’s lydian, or the minor chord, it’s dorian, etc. changing keys is turning the wheel. Done. Still applies to this day.

3. Combining 1 with 2, I learned the whole fingerboard pretty quick.

No need for any books. My teacher has a book he wrote and it’s really thick, pertaining to all kinds of Guitar stuff. His name is Michael DeLalla. I don’t think it’s necessary for what you need, but it is weird that I have never found the same simple explanation in any text book of theory.



RobF -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 16:08:52)

quote:

I don’t think it’s necessary for what you need, but it is weird that I have never found the same simple explanation in any text book of theory.

Why don’t you write one? Serious. I don’t know how popular magazines are these days, but an article in an established publication might be pretty cool. At the very least, you could self-publish on Amazon. If successful, you could follow up with more advanced topics.

I’d buy a copy, and I suspect most everyone else on here would, too.

P.S. out of curiousity, is Michael DeLalla’s book called “The Mindful Guitarist”? It’s available as a PDF, as well as paper copy.
http://www.fallingmountain.com/products-page/michaels-books



Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 16:42:05)

quote:

P.S. out of curiousity, is Michael DeLalla’s book called “The Mindful Guitarist”? It’s available as a PDF, as well as paper copy.
http://www.fallingmountain.com/products-page/michaels-books


Yep that’s him. The meaningful theory stuff is early in the book. I found two small errors in case anybody reads it I’ll point em out.

As a busy performer and teacher, the idea of writing my thoughts on music in general, and Flamenco specifically, I was saving for when things slow down for me. Plus I keep revising certain things as I learn more about Flamenco. If I had already published something by now I would be going crazy wanting to revise it [:D] I totally get why Manolo Sanlucar has chosen to quit gigs and write his encyclopedia as an old man. [8D]



Schieper -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 17:08:00)

Thanks a lot Ricardo! Highly appreciated. Although I have no real clue what you mean with nr 1.. I wil probably need to sit a while and ponder over it.

nr. 2 i will look up :-)

And maybe I will just buy that book. At the least it will look professional in my music room ;-)



kitarist -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 17:13:19)

quote:

I found two small errors in case anybody reads it I’ll point em out.


I just got it. Please do.



devilhand -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 17:43:14)

quote:

Although I have no real clue what you mean with nr 1.. I wil probably need to sit a while and ponder over it.

3 note per string for E major scale. I guess 7 overlapping patterns are shown here.

https://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/scales-images/emajorscale-3nps.gif

@Mr. Marlow
Looks like none of these 7 patterns has open strings. Are they correct?



Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 18:01:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Although I have no real clue what you mean with nr 1.. I wil probably need to sit a while and ponder over it.

3 note per string for E major scale. I guess 7 overlapping patterns are shown here.

https://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/scales-images/emajorscale-3nps.gif

@Mr. Marlow
Looks like none of these 7 patterns has open strings. Are they correct?


This is printed for electric guitarists most likely or for guys with cut aways with access to high postions. The open string pattern is the same as the one that has 12th fret as the starting low note. Again, I recommend starting in C major (low E begins) first then use the circle to learn the rest. Going clockwise is G major, counter clockwise is F major. What you do in either direction is change only ONE note from what you previously mastered. So it stops being about pattern recognition via wrote memorization, and becomes more about understating relationships on the fingerboard. Also, the student can call the lowest note a modal tonic if they want to start learning that vocab as well. For example in your diagram you can think of the first pattern as Aeolian and the last as mixolydian if you want. The reason is for learning relationships not any specific application.



Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 18:22:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

I found two small errors in case anybody reads it I’ll point em out.


I just got it. Please do.


Page 28, the 11th partial is related to F natural above C. More often we relate that to F# instead, although neither is correct mathematically in equal temp. The reason it’s important to me is the “overtone scale” relates to this fundamental overtone series and is better known as “Lydian Dominant” , or via Rick Beato “Mixolydian #4” and just so happens to be a super important mode and vibe in my professional life. I don’t like the idea that the implied scale of the overtone series of nature, might be a basic mixolydian. As I said a minor error.

The next one was on page 61 near the bottom. He offers a suggestion to add the extension b13th to the bass of a chord. The example he gives shows G13 with b9 in the bass. I believe the error was that in his mind, Ab is the b13 of C major....his intended place of resolution. Another minor error. On the next page his application of the harmonic idea I feel is mis-named ...it’s not G13/Ab as per the guitar fingering. It’s E(b9)/G# in context, a very flamenco move. But these enharmonic misspellings are common in jazz/pop chart discipline.

Also in his discussion on Tonic-dominant-subdominant and chord quality on page 60, he forgets to add that maj7 also implies subdominant.

The music theory regarding the circle of 5ths is from page 64-72. That section is the thing we learned from him one afternoon at guitar camp, and it serves me to this day.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 18:22:36)

quote:

any recommendations on a good book on music theorie. For beginners and not to boring [if that is possible].


Among those aimed explicitly at guitarists:

Melody and Harmony for Guitarists by John W. Duarte
Harmony for Guitarists by Lance Bosman
Music Theory for Guitarists by Tom Serb

Lance’s in particular has good coverage of the modes, which is useful for Flamenco; but it may be out of print. (Let me know if you want a copy, Lance is an old friend of mine, and I might be able to help.)

You can find my review of the last-named here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R393TCAUPLMGHC/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B01HC1K6VW



devilhand -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 18:30:16)

Mr. Magnussen. I read your amazon review on the book Flamenco Guitar; A complete Method for Playing Flamenco by Ivor Mairants. You wrote your friend marked all the mistakes in this book. Could you please point them out?



kitarist -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 19:14:56)

Thank you, Ricardo.



RobF -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 4 2020 20:02:49)

quote:

Mr. Magnussen. I read your amazon review on the book Flamenco Guitar; A complete Method for Playing Flamenco by Ivor Mairants. You wrote your friend marked all the mistakes in this book. Could you please point them out?


This is what Paul wrote in his review: “I remember my friend Richard Lawrence marked all the mistakes he found in his copy and sent it back to Mr Mairants.”

Perhaps you should direct your request to Mr. Mairants’ estate?



Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 5 2020 18:11:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

quote:

Mr. Magnussen. I read your amazon review on the book Flamenco Guitar; A complete Method for Playing Flamenco by Ivor Mairants. You wrote your friend marked all the mistakes in this book. Could you please point them out?


This is what Paul wrote in his review: “I remember my friend Richard Lawrence marked all the mistakes he found in his copy and sent it back to Mr Mairants.”

Perhaps you should direct your request to Mr. Mairants’ estate?


[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



Piwin -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 7 2020 13:53:47)

This can get you through the basics without having to buy anything: https://www.teoria.com/en/tutorials/

Sometime last year I fiddled around at a friend's house with a program called Earmaster. I don't know how much it costs, but it was overall pretty good for the basics. Kind of a mix of ear training and sight reading. The theory is presented in there, but the focus is very much on ear training and reading. So, more of a practical approach. I mention it because it was very interactive, with a lot of exercises where you have to sing or clap in your computer mic. And since you wanted something not boring... I don't think it went all that far in theory proper, but it did cover the basics you're talking about, like chord building.

About reading classical notation, just bear in mind that it's a heavy investment in time if you want to become conversant enough that it's actually useful. It won't take much time to just learn the basics so you can very slowly decipher a piece. But to really have a handle on it, that takes a lot of time and practice. And there's just not much use for it in flamenco. Anyway, once you've learned the basic components, you could use the IMSLP database to practice. There's a section in there that ranks pieces per difficulty for certain instruments. So you can practice reading simple pieces, and then move your way up. You can then compare with recordings from the site or from youtube to check that you read it right.

That's pretty much all I can think of right now. None of the theory books I have seem particularly good for self-study as a beginner (more of the "book to work on with a teacher" type of thing)



mt1007 -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 7 2020 20:21:52)

guys,

here is a video i made for this thread. Ricardos explaniaton is dead on and i wanted to expand on it.. hope this helps




devilhand -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 7 2020 22:21:19)

In case of G7 you don't use primary/secondary relative minor 7th chords as a substitute because both don't have b7. You use Bm7b5 instead.
On the other hand Cmaj7 and Fmaj7 can be sustituted by both primary/secondary relative minor 7th chords. Do I have it right?

Another question is why do you use maj7 chord for C and F and dominant chord for G?



mt1007 -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 7 2020 22:40:50)

for devilhand:

lets work this out. can you please reply with the following:

1) c major scale spelled out

2) harmonize c major scale as in spell out every scale degree/chord with 7th

for all: the circle of fifths diagram does give secondary relatives plus 7 degree scale, just want to add this note in case i left out of video, it just boils down to how you're viewing diagram and how you build relationships in diagram, something we can look at later



JasonM -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 1:45:01)

[:D]

Thanks for the video MT! I still need to go back and work on that circle of 5ths exercise You made a while back.

The Beato Book is a nice resource to have. I recently started to memorize the triad inversions. That’s been really helpful for seeing the fretboard and build chords.



mt1007 -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 5:57:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

[:D]

Thanks for the video MT! I still need to go back and work on that circle of 5ths exercise You made a while back.

The Beato Book is a nice resource to have. I recently started to memorize the triad inversions. That’s been really helpful for seeing the fretboard and build chords.


J thanks man! I try to do that study every day and it has helped a lot not only with theory but also just with alternating fingers im or mi. you know i got the Beato book but haven't cracked it open. doing inversion studies is great, really helps when composing and making that bass line move around the fret board. if you ever start a thread on inversions, ill record a video for that. lately i've been working Bebop stuff along with checking out Barry Harris method



Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 14:35:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mt1007

guys,

here is a video i made for this thread. Ricardos explaniaton is dead on and i wanted to expand on it.. hope this helps




Nice job. I admit what we were taught was not so much substitutes but to decipher an existing song how it’s chords related to a scale or key center without introducing any terminology or spelling out chords even.

Also, in the same class the teacher introduced us to guitar trio where I heard the equivalent of your Em7 with the missing b9 (F natural) included in one spanishy tune. In a way it was working as a sub for G7. However not in key center of Cmajor, but rather in the key of F# (phyrigian). At the tender age of 14 it didn’t click yet how that works... it wasn’t until college the Aug6 chords revealed what Flamenco harmony (I was already familiar with) was all about.

Finally, the minor key is easy to understand when visualize a borrowing of the dominant from the parallel key (A major). The 1 o’clock position must contain the dominant7 chord. After that, if the student learns some minor scales (natural, harmonic, melodic) they should soon see how minor key harmonies are affected. After seeing how that borrowing works, we see you can tonicize ANY chord convincingly by sticking it’s Dominant chord in the 1 o’clock position. For example, you want to tonicize your Dm chord (in c major or any key really that contains that chord), you look where D is, put it at 12 o’clock, notice A7 in 1 o’clock spot and you’ve got your chord.

The problem with your scales, is you use two notes on D string. So in my “view” of the fingerboard you are shifting back a position mid scale. By understanding the 7 overlapping patterns, you can shift back or forward ANY WHERE on the neck at ANYTME rather than being stuck in one of those 3 safe boxes. It’s pure freedom.



devilhand -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 15:05:28)

quote:

2) harmonize c major scale as in spell out every scale degree/chord with 7th

I got what you showed. I remember now. I read it in a jazz harmony book a few months ago. But I didn't pay much attention to it.
Harmonizing C major scale and its seven 4 note chords are found on circle of fifths. Bdim chord is Bm7b5 which is relative minor of D (2pm on circle of fifths).

The question is do you use Bm7b5 as a substitute for G7 because of natural F. Right?



Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 15:17:01)

quote:

The question is do you use Bm7b5 as a substitute for G7 because of natural F. Right?
. It’s the upper structure of G9th chord (GBDFA). The Tritone still resolves. It’s actually not a great sub however in jazz there is an idea to let the bass instrument handle roots and 5ths, letting guitar handle colorful upper structure voicings. Another idea is if the melody Instrument is sustaining a G note on top, a Bm7b5->Cmaj move under it functions nicely as a first inversion V7-9.



devilhand -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 16:01:13)

quote:

By understanding the 7 overlapping patterns, you can shift back or forward ANY WHERE on the neck at ANYTME rather than being stuck in one of those 3 safe boxes. It’s pure freedom.

The problem I have with 3 note per string patterns is finger stretching. For example F major scale starts like this on the low E string 1 3 5.
At 15:20 Tuck Anderss advises not to strech fingers while playing 3 note per string patterns for the sake of comfort and natural finger positions. You change positions instead. Do you think it's a valid point for flamenco guitar playing?




Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 16:23:24)

No



devilhand -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 16:27:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

No

Ok. I thought it can be useful because he looks like Bach in this video.



Ricardo -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 17:56:49)

WTF



JasonM -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 17:57:54)

I found the 3 note per string stretches a little awkward at first but it becomes second nature.



RobF -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 18:20:31)

quote:

Ok. I thought it can be useful because he looks like Bach in this video.

You might be onto something. How tall was Bach?



FredGuitarraOle -> RE: Looking for good book on music theorie (Sep. 8 2020 18:26:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

quote:

Ok. I thought it can be useful because he looks like Bach in this video.

You might be onto something. How tall was Bach?

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



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