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Ricardo -> RE: Cultural appropriation (Apr. 26 2022 12:27:50)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Steelhead
Now then, on another topic, though on the same thread, I must beg to differ with Ricardo regarding the “pre-historical” fandango:
<<I have yet to see evidence in any form of what we know is “fandango” today, meaning the rigid harmonic structure and phrasing, existing before the first recordings of Malagueñas and such on the first wax cylinders. The baroque music that claims to be related, even by name, is not related at all by any important musical specific. The Scarlatti fandango has a bit of a solea falseta in it.>>
For one thing, in El Murciano’s 1840s “Rondeña,” the copla section is in clear fandango form (“Los ojos de mi morena”). Castro Buendía notices a fandango in a 1754 dance manual of Minguet y Yrol with the copla moving from the Dm-A ritornello to the standard F-Bb-F-C—at which point the next page is lost, but one strongly suspects that the ”textbook” F-Bb-A is following. In general I think it’s useful to look at the fandango, historically, as having two components—the Dm-A (por medio) ritornello/entrecopla—and the copla, with the fandango chords. In different “fandangos” over the centuries, these have different degrees of import. The fandangos of Soler and Máximo López are mostly ritornellos, but with short “copla”-like excursions in relative major. But I think Ricardo (who we know is incredibly erudite) knows all this.
Yes, well my comment quote above was summer of 2020, mid pandemic. I learned a lot since then, and have read numerous “scholarly” papers on the subject. The Minguet y Yrol partial evidence I will have to take your word for it, however, since pages are missing I don’t see it as very valuable in comparison to the Maximo Lopez Fandango which has no date, but considering his death in 1820’s it is safe to assume the piece was written or conceived of close enough to the 1750-1800 window that we can admit there must have already existed the basis of the flamenco version:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=332747&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=lopez%2Ccopla&tmode=&smode=&s=#332784
The issue I have with the above, if you read my interpretation, is that the ritornellos are clearly Minor key, not Phrygian based, and the copla of Fandango is done or focused on as the “glorious triumphant purpose” of the Fandango form in Flamenco, whereas the classical music/dance seems to be about meandering “falsetas”. It is either “fakemenco” (I suspect as much), or the Gitanos took that silly little copla and for reasons unknown expanded it into the Glorious 2/3 of the flamenco tree (far fetched). In addition to the above I was quite impressed with the collection of Eduardo Ocón, giving hard evidence of several flamenco structures in play by the 1860s (time of gathering the collection long before publication in 1874), including not only Soleá and Fandango, but the derivative concepts of Malagueña, Granaina (with these, the Rondeña and Muriciana chord charts), the Caña (swapped title for the Polo), Tanguillo, and Sevillanas. A familiar nana is in there, and conspicuously absent, the Siguiriyas. I have also tried keeping up with Castro Buendia’s work such as suggested by his massive Silverio Franconetti dissertation (3017 pages) where his conclusions tend to dispel many of the myths I have tried to address over the years. With exception that the timeline bar for the above song forms has moved way back from 1900 wax cylinder evidence to the 1860s (for certain) and likely 1800 (the scores taken with writings of Calderon and Borrow mainly for me, who admit the music they observe is much older than 1838), very little in regard to origins has come to light since the earliest “flamencology”. The general belief (I feel is very wrong) that this music just magically “came together” as if in some cultural soup of witches caldron that produced “flamenco” suddenly, thanks to 1.) gypsies and 2) time, continues to prevail. If everybody just stops and thinks scientifically for one second, the structure is so clear that it must have an origin and with that, a REASON for holding its structure, just like Blues.
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