RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Full Version)

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Echi -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 8 2020 9:19:22)

Difficult to say anything here.
I suppose people have a very personal way to listen music and to catch details.

quote:

I simply challenge you all to take a sample yourself playing 4 or more guitars, the same short music. Have a significant other use their phone.

Honestly I did it in the past with 3 of my guitars. In truth it was just a long recording of me playing different pieces on the 3 guitars (in that case a Conde a Caceres and a Sanchis Carpio). At the end I forgot the order of my playing and had to listen very carefully to spot the right guitar on.
I regularly record my guitars when I buy them and (in case) when I sell them: just to keep memory of them.
What to say?
A. Differences may be minimal or not substantial with blind test, I agree. Usually the “attack” or initial transient of the note is where you spot the differences.
B. Memory works well if it is you playing the guitar: in other words my brain associated the music to a certain guitar by recalling the feeling I had when playing that guitar. If it wasn’t me playing it would have been harder to tell.
C. After multiple listening and reckoning my preference usually goes for the same guitar I actually preferred with my gut playing.

It’s not a mistery classical guitars are very hard to record and a different mic or mic position makes for a big change.



aaron peacock -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 8 2020 12:23:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

If all preamps did was change the volume I could understand your point. However a pre-amp changes the ‘colour’ or ‘texture’ of the sound. I am suggesting it is possible that the changes made by the pre-amp can mask the original subtle differences and make the guitars sound the same.

Rob


Years ago I used to hang around with some pro symphony players. Some of them had big fantastic record collections, but all of them had cheap playback equipment. Some of them were pretty well off. I asked them why they didn't spend a little more on hi-fi gear. Every one of them replied, "None of them ever sound like the real thing, so why bother?"

Lots of commercial guitar recordings, both classical and flamenco, are very highly processed these days. They sound more like some kind of extra-terrestrial synthesizer than a guitar.

RNJ



to say nothing of unintentional coloration produced in live recordings by
1) compression

2) eq (channel and overall PA system "impulse response" - aka the driverack settings(crossover points and curves, dynamics, etc) , the cabinets, their placement, the room...

3) feedback. (actual PA->mic feedback)

4) saturation, intentional or otherwise.

(all 4 factors being present here on these 2 recordings)



then you can add piezo pickups, which already have a "bright" sound, bridge mounted!? (brighter) and then compensated for
(deliberate frequency compensation built-into pre-amp circuits, often additionally modifiable by tone controls) in the pre-amp and/or recording channel...

it is indeed an otherworldly sound, PDL has harp-like tones here, part of which are a result of putting the capo all the way up at Sol or G of course.

but yes, generally, even with all the differences of hearing a guitar vs recordings of a guitar, I will still agree that the fingers/fingernails/person playing it is the biggest differentiator in tonal quality across the board, as others have said here.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 8 2020 18:04:08)

On recording I definitely agree that it almost doesn't matter what guitar you use. The microphone itself changes the sound more than most people realize before effects are added at all. Then between EQ, reverb, compression, etc. you can make an audio signal sound completely unrecognizable, and the very act of recording and playing through speakers means that the music is no longer coming from its original source. The fact that you can make a speaker sound like a guitar at all is actually something of a miracle.
I have owned guitars that were weak, quiet and stiff but on recording sounded top-notch!



Ricardo -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 9 2020 18:13:30)

Ok, well the last half dozen posts seem to have mutual point of view ... that being a “recording” of any type is affecting the perceived sound so drastically the differences of tone render the experiment “biased” or otherwise bent in a wrong direction. I don’t get why everybody doesn’t understand that recording method and equipment used in a test, being the same for each different instrument just like your bedroom or studio affects the guitars played inside it, is a non variable control that cancels out in the experiment. In other words, the fact it adds some common element to each instrument is a GOOD thing as it helps to cut through the other biases (the wood label finish action etc), so the objective listener can discover the true differences.

You can pretend you have a controlled blind fold test with your naked ear which is fine, but you are still hearing the room. You can do the test out side with birds chirping or crickets, but those are variables no good for a test. A padded styrofoam room is ideal...and that’s what a mic will capture. You guys wondering “is it real, is it memorex?” Are deluding yourselves that recording tech has not achieved the “real” sound since freaking decades already. Even this stupid cellphone with its horrible unnecessary compressor and noise cancel built in is about as good as you need for such a test. And again, the effects are helping by adding non variable controls to the experiment.

I did also want to point to echi who attempted a similar experiment but at once admits “memory works well“ meaning it influenced his ability to figure out which guitar was which, but earlier contradicts that by saying he “forgot” what order he played them in. Despite the contradiction, the test was NOT objective IMO, the way he did it, and therefore worthless. However, the fact he had “trouble” at all points to the reality that a proper test set up (simply have another person scramble the order for you) would certainly give him the same experience I had. I’m sure of it.



RobF -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 9 2020 18:45:55)

You’re making good points, Ricardo. If I may add to them; throughout the years, during the development of telephony, Bell Labs did numerous experiments to determine the minimum bandwidths required for a human voice to be distinguishable/recognizable in the presence of noise while being transmitted over an analogue system. I can’t quote the exact studies, but the necessary bandwidth is surprisingly narrow and there can be a significant amount of noise and distortion. One can recognize a person’s voice quite easily. I think the same principle applies here, I don’t believe for one minute that the characteristics of an instrument are wiped out by a recording, especially if one is using high quality equipment and not altering the placements or processing.

I still think your experiment might be skewed a bit due to the ability of a good player to smooth out differences in tone and bring the most out of an instrument. You probably need someone less capable to play the guitars and then do the comparisons, or force yourself to play using the exact same hand positions and tensions to try to stop making minute adjustments.

It reminds me of a time I played a very high end guitar. I found it to be quite powerful, but it was really displeasing to me tonally, it had honking notes and harsh overtones. I was told “yeah, but the audience won’t hear that.” To me, I didn’t care, the guitar wasn’t pleasing so I would never want to own or to make one with those characteristics, super loud or not. The funny thing was, I was at a show where the exact same guitar was being displayed and a very good player was raving about how much he loved it. It still sounded like crap to me, even when he was playing it, so go figure.

It occurs to me another fly in the ointment could be if the guitars you used were all personal instruments that were selected by you. If so, is it possible you seek out a specific set of tonal characteristics when acquiring instruments? In other words, they all sounded the same to you simply because they all actually do sound similar.



Ricardo -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 9 2020 19:15:55)

quote:

I still think your experiment might be skewed due to the ability of a good player to smooth out differences in tone and bring the most out of an instrument. You probably need someone less capable to play the guitars and then do the comparisons, or force yourself to play using the exact same hand positions and tensions to try to stop making minute adjustments.


Interesting point to consider. However it implies only the novice player can truly bring out the true tone, good or bad, of a fine instrument. [:D]

Ok not joking around, yes I might adjust my manual technique a bit as I get used to an instrument. Sort of like borrowing a friends stick shift vehicle getting used to the feel of clutch gears and gas. Or if you have two cars that feel different, even though they are yours, it’s still weird and takes some getting used to every time you change cars. But honestly, I need to play an entire piece of music to fully settle into these changes. The different feel doesn’t really manifest until I have covered the full range of the instrument. I Experienced this with my own guitars again the other day after learning a Bach prelude.

But in my objective test I played two short falsetas that where pretty much in first position. Very little or nothing of my manual technique changed. It’s totally possible that playing some music that covered the entire fingerboard might reveal the guitar make so I deliberately avoided it and kept the test simple for myself.

I want to add that I have noticed two important factors over the years that might actually be hidden bias.
1. Collections of guitars by a single owner or a store tend to have a “sameness” of tone. Perhaps humidity, vibrational energy, or voodoo be the cause?
2. Strings...possibly relates to 1. If the owner likes one special set and uses them for all instruments, we could be all undervaluing the importance of string tone vs guitar make and material.

Testing the relative importance of those two factors involves a totally different experiment.



RobF -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 9 2020 19:37:50)

quote:

It occurs to me another fly in the ointment...
I want to add that...

Haha, it looks like I was editing my post at the same time you were composing yours. Yeah, I think that player preference when it comes to instrument selection, strings, perhaps climate, voodoo, etc... also comes into play, too.

Maybe it just comes down to good instruments being played by someone who is capable of drawing the best out of them actually do have a lot of similarities in sound. That’s what makes them good. Especially if those instruments were personally selected by the player to be their own.



JasonM -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 10 2020 0:34:10)

Vicente Amigo’s latest album, the one he recorded with the Navarro guitar, sounded off to me. I didn’t know at first that he used that guitar but I could tell something sounded weird. I thought it was the mic he used or his home studio.

The other time was with Paco playing that Devoe. I was like, hey this doesn’t sound right!



Andy Culpepper -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 10 2020 3:14:45)

The old "witch not the wand" expression applies now as much as ever. I think Ricardo needs to check his "virtuoso privilege" [:D]

I think everyone should choose the guitar that inspires them most, for whatever reason that may be. Most of us are just bedroom players anyway. The greatest difference between guitars will be felt from the "driver's seat" as it were.



Ricardo -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 10 2020 21:41:04)

quote:

Vicente Amigo’s latest album, the one he recorded with the Navarro guitar, sounded off to me. I didn’t know at first that he used that guitar but I could tell something sounded weird


Well, that’s not objective and now you have a specific bias... the guitar. Look at PDL recordings... a large sample will be the exact same guitar, but each album sounds wildly different.

Watch 49:39, then 52:10


Same guitar same guy, different strings,different sound set up... but for me it’s mainly the strings (La Bella reds First)



Echi -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 11 2020 6:50:29)

Ricardo, you have your points but I am with Jason here.
Again the differences may be subtle and it’s also true we listen with all our senses: that’s why blind people develop incredibly their hearing skill and a blind test can be fooling.
Anyway I had the same feeling of Jason regarding Vicente in many occasions:
For instance listen to him with this Sanchis: differences are minimal but still.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 11 2020 16:15:47)

Echi,

There is always going to be a difference in tonal output from different builders, even if they build the same top pattern.

The important point is how the articulation happens through certain toque against top tension; how the top marries with the strings to produce a vowel tone rather just string noise.

This has been the quest of many builders. Sanchis is a good builder and I've played one of his guitars that sang a beautiful song........but it wasn't a Reyes style.



Echi -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 11 2020 17:05:51)

Well, I for one think there is a big difference between a Sanchis and a Reyes.
It’s Ricardo saying that in a blind test the differences are minimal. I posted a video of Vicente playing a Sanchis (very unusual for Vicente) so that people can listen and decide.



Ricardo -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 14 2020 18:26:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Well, I for one think there is a big difference between a Sanchis and a Reyes.
It’s Ricardo saying that in a blind test the differences are minimal. I posted a video of Vicente playing a Sanchis (very unusual for Vicente) so that people can listen and decide.


To be clear, in a two guitar test it might be easier to guess. The problem is appearing with a larger sampling. And of course with a biased mind the Sanchis and Reyes sound different in Vicente’s hands. We don’t see Vicente play the same piece with the different guitar to compare so it’s a pointless exercise in that case and your example goes directly against everything ive been saying. Yes we can hear him deal with a different instrument, and yes of course we perceive the differences. I am saying those differences will disappear suddenly when you are blind tested and you have more than two choices (three or more guitars) in the same setting (music played, person, and recording set up all the same).



Tom Blackshear -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 15 2020 19:18:58)

Ricardo,

I think you'll agree that the Reyes has a sharper attack.




JasonM -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 15 2020 21:04:22)

Vicente playing the Sanchis sounds like Vicente Sanchis [:D]

But, I agree with Ricardo, for a true test we have to remove bias and other variables.

For Paco, what came to mind was live show during Cositas tour when he switched to the Devoe for some songs.



Ricardo -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 16 2020 18:00:57)

quote:

Ricardo,

I think you'll agree that the Reyes has a sharper attack.


I agree. It sounds almost as good as a conde!



Echi -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 17 2020 8:45:12)

No need to have a proper test here. For a proper test better the videos of Solera or even better a home made test as suggested by Ricardo.

Tom, I’d say the Sanchis is sharper even though the Reyes is more focused.



JasonM -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 17 2020 20:29:51)

The test has to be the same Ricardo, same nails, same strings, Same humidity, and same recording setup



Echi -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 18 2020 9:47:34)

And then?
Of course in such a test with identical strings, nails, player and set up the differences will be minimal.
IMHO this doesn’t entail all the guitars are the same or everything is bias. It’s not.

To come back to the topic: I believe laquer and shellac have a specific effect on tone, at least for an attentive player.



Ricardo -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 18 2020 17:08:14)

quote:

differences will be minimal.


No, those are the controls, so the true variable can be measured, the different guitars. That’s why I did the experiment that way, to get at the true heart of what makes each guitar unique sound-wise, and only sound-wise however “minimal” it might be. I was simply prepared to choose which ever guitar sounded most Flamenco or impressive or whatever, not biased by the label look or finish or wood type or price tag. The answer I got was clear to me. It did not matter in the slightest. [:D]



Andy Culpepper -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 19 2020 3:12:34)

quote:

IMHO this doesn’t entail all the guitars are the same or everything is bias. It’s not.


I didn't think this was what Ricardo was saying...Ricardo, are you saying that all guitars actually sound the same from the perspective of playing them live in a room? If so, you've totally lost me on that one. Honest question here: what is it that you love so much about your Conde? Is it just the low setup and the orange spray-tan? That would make my job a lot easier [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 20 2020 18:53:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

quote:

IMHO this doesn’t entail all the guitars are the same or everything is bias. It’s not.


I didn't think this was what Ricardo was saying...Ricardo, are you saying that all guitars actually sound the same from the perspective of playing them live in a room? If so, you've totally lost me on that one. Honest question here: what is it that you love so much about your Conde? Is it just the low setup and the orange spray-tan? That would make my job a lot easier [:D]


I won’t say that all guitars in a room sound the same. What I learned is that whatever distinctions I thought each guitar had were actually a biased auditory illusion since when the bias was removed, the sound distinctions were not strong enough for my brain to discern which guitar was which.

In other words, as my ear is focused about the mid range conde blanca, vs the woody bassy tone of the negra jeronimo Peña, suddenly those distinctions disappeared when I was no longer sure which was which, and while the two guitars might not have sounded identical, I certainly could not tell which was which based on my normal perceptions. Once it was made aware which guitar was which suddenly those distinctions reappeared like magic into the audio spectrum of my minds eye. The “knowing” affects everybody’s perception of the sound, is what i shockingly proved to myself.

Now you ask what I like about conde, well it’s the feel and response of course. They look very handsome as well. Considering what I learned about the sound after my experiment I have to admit feel and response to your technique and style is all the guitar market is about. I can pretend the expensive guitar “sounds” better, but I know that’s just an illusion.

Lastly I will admit I always had a prejudice in favor of blancas over negras, but since that experiment I’ve come to truly love the negras in my collection equally to the blancas. The prejudice was based on biased auditory illusions, and now I can “hear” past them so to speak.



JasonM -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 20 2020 19:46:33)

quote:

What I learned is that whatever distinctions I thought each guitar had were actually a biased auditory illusion since when the bias was removed, the sound distinctions were not strong enough for my brain to discern which guitar was which.


But... then again there is the whole recording/ playback aspect. Could you pick them out in a blindfold test with someone playing them live in the same room?



Ricardo -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 21 2020 20:46:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

quote:

What I learned is that whatever distinctions I thought each guitar had were actually a biased auditory illusion since when the bias was removed, the sound distinctions were not strong enough for my brain to discern which guitar was which.


But... then again there is the whole recording/ playback aspect. Could you pick them out in a blindfold test with someone playing them live in the same room?


Is it real? Is it memorex? That silly question has been answered. Anyway I played that game too with a friend. It’s more shocking when it’s your own self playing back on a recording. Here’s a horrible reality everybody needs to swallow. When you hear yourself playing on a recording....YES that’s what you sound like mofo!!!!😂



Andy Culpepper -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 22 2020 3:06:32)

quote:

I won’t say that all guitars in a room sound the same. What I learned is that whatever distinctions I thought each guitar had were actually a biased auditory illusion since when the bias was removed, the sound distinctions were not strong enough for my brain to discern which guitar was which.

In other words, as my ear is focused about the mid range conde blanca, vs the woody bassy tone of the negra jeronimo Peña, suddenly those distinctions disappeared when I was no longer sure which was which, and while the two guitars might not have sounded identical, I certainly could not tell which was which based on my normal perceptions. Once it was made aware which guitar was which suddenly those distinctions reappeared like magic into the audio spectrum of my minds eye. The “knowing” affects everybody’s perception of the sound, is what i shockingly proved to myself.

Now you ask what I like about conde, well it’s the feel and response of course. They look very handsome as well. Considering what I learned about the sound after my experiment I have to admit feel and response to your technique and style is all the guitar market is about. I can pretend the expensive guitar “sounds” better, but I know that’s just an illusion.

Lastly I will admit I always had a prejudice in favor of blancas over negras, but since that experiment I’ve come to truly love the negras in my collection equally to the blancas. The prejudice was based on biased auditory illusions, and now I can “hear” past them so to speak.


Interesting. I totally respect your experience but personally I think you may be weighting the results of that one experiment a little too much.

At a theoretical level, in my mind at least, it seems impossible for two guitars to sound "the same", let alone every guitar. You're making a reasonable argument that the differences, at least among finely crafted concert guitars, are below the threshold of objective perception, but maybe different listeners have different thresholds for that.

If you changed the experiment to include, say, a Gibson dreadnought with nylon strings on it, I think you'd probably be able to pick that one out of the lineup. Also I still think that the way our ears pick up sound from being in the room live with the instrument is different than hearing it played back on a recording.

Manuel Reyes (I think it was he) seemed to be of the opinion that the physical shape of the guitar was one of the primary factors influencing its sound, so maybe all the guitars being roughly similar in plantilla shape matters more than we think it does. But then there are the guys with salty fingers fine-tuning the sound...[:D]



JasonM -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Jul. 22 2020 15:33:12)

Memorex tape in a boom box and might mistake my guitar for a real Reyes



hhmusic -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Aug. 12 2020 20:50:47)

In these Covid times we've recently had to switch to remote recording for some projects, and that includes recording with iPhones, when it was the only option. And those recordings all sound like ... crappy phones.

So, the phone itself is equalizing the 4 guitars more than you think! As always, better recording gear and TECHNIQUE allow the differences in any source to be more apparent.

Agree the player's style and attack and nail preference -- and mind and intention -- make a much bigger difference than spruce, cedar, negra, blanca, FP, lacquer.

Agree too that 'the driver's seat,' not the recording, is the place to make the judgement. A guitar's response, feel, looks (they matter more than we care to admit), volume and sound, in the places we normally play, all allow us to most ENJOY playing that guitar, which usually leads to the most inspired playing. That would be the one I'd choose to record.

Cuz Ricardo's right, recording is a rude awakening. One of the best ways for anyone, professional or otherwise, to become a better player is to listen critically to their own recordings ... if you can stand it!

Finally to not totally hijack this thread... from my experience in 'the driver's seat' FP guitars are (usually) more responsive therefore more satisfying but also less forgiving of technical mistakes. Lacquer guitars can still be very loud but respond less to microdynamics and are less clear in the upper harmonics, both of which mask the small errors and differences in attack on different notes/strings. This can make lacquer guitars better to stick a mic 6 inches in front of, and a good choice for a performing pro. But less enjoyable, and perhaps less instructive, for the large majority of our time, when playing / practicing with just ourselves -- whether professional or amateur.



hhmusic -> RE: The "lacquer sound"? (Aug. 12 2020 21:37:57)

In a lot less words... lacquer is a mild compressor and low pass filter.



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