RE: Which scales? (Full Version)

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Piwin -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 27 2019 14:20:08)

quote:

So what about soloing over tonal and modal music?


Probably best to wait for the big bosses to address this one because I'll be out of my depth here. [;)] Especially on the use of accidentals. I wasn't under the impression that you couldn't use them in modal music, but Ricardo seemed to be saying otherwise.

For instance, I was taught that this piece was modal:



Yet there is an accidental, with the use of a major D chord (and the F sharp in the melody). So I dunno, I'm out of my depth here. [8D]

I think some of the confusion when you try to learn about modal music is that in jazz theory (and so, in a lot of the theory stuff you find on the internet), they often use modes to describe how they approach a scale within the context of a tonal piece. So, take a ii-V7-I progression in C major (D minor, G7, C major). Instead of thinking of the whole thing as a C major scale, they'll conceptualise it as D dorian (over D minor), G Mixolydian (over G7) and C Ionian (over C major). All 3 have the same collection of pitches, the key remains C major, but they use modal language to describe how to improvise over the chord progression. You just have to remember that this is not the same thing as "modal music". Even if they're using modes to describe scales, the ii-V7-I progression is still functional harmony, and so it's tonal music.




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 27 2019 14:34:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Mr. Marlow I studied your post and came to the following conclusion. Could you correct me if I'm wrong?

Modal music is harmonically static such that single chord is played throughout a song while melodic lines/solos change. However, they cannot contain any note. Notes from solo must come from parent scale.
I.e. in case of modes from C major, melodic lines contain notes with no sharp and flats.
In case of modes from A major scale, only notes with 3 sharps are used for soloing.

For example, we play G chord throughout a song and solo over it using any note with no flats and sharps. Then the song is played in G mixolydian mode.
Once we use melodic lines with notes with 3 sharps, the song turns out to be in B phrygian mode.

To make this song tonal (in G major key), we change 2 things.
(1) Harmonic changes and progression that resolves to the tonic. (C D -> G).
(2) Melodic lines and solos can be any scale. In musical notation, we use accidentals whenever some weird scales come into use. Since G major key has one sharp, the single symbol # is not meant to be an accidental. But more than one # and any b symbols are accidentals.
But I believe solos cannot be any scale too. They follow changing harmonic progression so that melody and harmony go hand in hand to make musical sense.

Summary

Tonal music uses harmonic changes and resolution to the tonic happens. Solos in tonal music can be any scale as long as we travel back to the tonic and the tune sounds consonant.

Modal music uses single chord. There's no harmonic change and no resolution to the tonic. Solos/melodic lines in modal music cannot be any scale. Only parent scale from which the mode is derived is used.


Everything you said is correct. Except you make an error with “...notes with three sharps, the song turns out to be in B phrygian”. B phrygian the mode has one sharp, F#. The phrygian DOMINANT, the 5th mode of harmonic minor contains two sharps (F# and D#) as it is derived from the E harmonic minor scale. Since it borrows from E minor KEY, you would use one sharp in the key signature and always add in the D#.

If what you meant was three sharps (they have to be order, F, C, G ) turns out be C# phrygian mode you would be correct ONLY if your static chord, drone, or vamp is based on C#. You were referring to a G chord at first so I think you were confusing keys. If you meant you add three random sharp notes over a G chord that is totally different. So if you need to clear it up maybe give more specifics.




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 27 2019 14:46:45)

quote:

No. It's just that the chords are "independent". They don't "resolve".


Well both statements are true. You see what happens in modal music is either 1.drone, or single bass note or chord. OR 2. A vamp...meaning a series of (yes unresolving) chords that actually together spell out a single scale/13th chord. You can actually use EVERY chord in the chord scale so long as you avoid that pesky V-I.

And to be clear, about mixing modal vamp music and tonal progressions in a single song, of course it’s done all the time, but the point is to distinguish the description of what’s going on. If the intent of a modal vamp is to have a single scale, it must be recognized. The idea of mixing modes on ii-V-I is so SUBSTITUTIONS can be done in the improvised solo. That is the jazz concept, so for example an E chord and F chord vamp sounds to many as the standard phrygian dominant vamp sound...but a jazz guy might opt to sub in the E super locrian over the E and the F lydian dominant over the F....for example.

Coming back to flamenco, folks think it is modal scales or vamps when it is more often simply tonal progressions similar to the minor key. I always point to Aug6 examples (it’s not really Renaissance but classical yes) because it LEGITIMIZES the concept that Solea is in a PHRYGIAN key to be distinguished from say a Buleria in A minor. They are different to people that understand flamenco, but to western minded folks they are the SAME. So yes flamenco is unique and would need a unique description of it’s harmonic movement as I have tried to do. But people keep going back to the same old misconceptions, phrygian modes, Andalusian cadence etc, it’s not that stuff.




devilhand -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 27 2019 16:12:41)

You're right. In modal music, if we solo over G or A major chord using a scale with one or three sharps (G or A major scale), the song will be in B or C# phrygian mode.

quote:

If what you meant was three sharps (they have to be order, F, G, C ) turns out be C# phrygian mode you would be correct ONLY if your static chord, drone, or vamp is based on C#.


This static chord based on C# can be only A major chord?
If this is not the case, I misunderstood the whole concept.




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 28 2019 0:13:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

You're right. In modal music, if we solo over G or A major chord using a scale with one or three sharps (G or A major scale), the song will be in B or C# phrygian mode.

quote:

If what you meant was three sharps (they have to be order, F, G, C ) turns out be C# phrygian mode you would be correct ONLY if your static chord, drone, or vamp is based on C#.


This static chord based on C# can be only A major chord?
If this is not the case, I misunderstood the whole concept.


Maybe all you are trying to say is one Sharp, G major, is the same as B phrygian? They all share the same scale, however you said “soloing over G major chord”, which means you are in “G Major”, either the key or the Ionian mode. Maybe you should say “if I play the G major scale over a B minor chord, it’s actually Phrygian sounding”.

If you are soloing over the A major chord you can only describe THAT section of the song, and it’s necessarily in “A whatever”. If it is modal music we are talking about, it doesn’t have other chords or scales. So there is no point to bring in the term “phrygian” if you are talking about a G and A chord with two sharps or less...(you can’t have both chords if there are 3 sharps or more, because G is the third sharp). Two sharps implies EITHER G lydian OR A mixolydian. There is ambiguity because you don’t specify more info. For example the rhythm might pull us more into the A major chord territory by the phrasing, and we can call it Mixolydian. However you can also kill the ambiguity by playing a Gmaj7, then A/G....effectively producing a drone on the G that hangs under both chords and you must then describe the music as “G lydian” and only that.

“This static chord based on C# can be only A major chord?” Maybe you are mixing up scales vs chords? C# is the bass, the drone, or the Chord and we call it phrygian, which is sharing the same number of sharps as A major key, so you would opt to use the A major key signature. AT no point do you want to play an actual A major chord because then you kill the entire modality you are trying to make over the C# bass or root or Chord. For the record, when making an appropriate vamp you have to be careful about ambiguity caused by distant chords vs nearby chords. See saw between C# minor chord and A major chord doesn’t spell out enough of the scale to distinguish between C# phryrian (3 #) and C# aeolian (4#). It could be either mode because neither chord has D or D# in it. As a rule you should include the relative tritone interval in your vamp to reveal the intended mode relative to the two or more chords you use.




devilhand -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 28 2019 17:35:20)

I'm more confused now. So better call it quits before my brain explodes. Thank you for your effort. I'll come back to your post again though.

Here is youtube video I found. What do you guys think?





Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 29 2019 12:33:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

I'm more confused now. So better call it quits before my brain explodes. Thank you for your effort. I'll come back to your post again though.

Here is youtube video I found. What do you guys think?




Hey don’t be discouraged, your summary earlier was dead on. Probably you just need to work through some examples with actual music and note names, chords etc.
quote:

Summary

Tonal music uses harmonic changes and resolution to the tonic happens. Solos in tonal music can be any scale as long as we travel back to the tonic and the tune sounds consonant.

Modal music uses single chord. There's no harmonic change and no resolution to the tonic. Solos/melodic lines in modal music cannot be any scale. Only parent scale from which the mode is derived is used.


As for the scales... well I guess they can be useful but he miss leads you entirely by putting unnecessary random form names with each scale... for example E lydian used with only those two forms? The scale can work in Any form.... but what or how if you don’t understand the traditional form? It’s only technique excercises he shows here... might as well be chromatic patterns too.




Auda -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 29 2019 14:46:03)

quote:

Here is youtube video I found. What do you guys think?


I like the use of the metronome. His has good power. A minor observation is that his left hand seems overly tense at times.

I hope you checked out the link in my earlier post. I really like the very last scale on the bottom of the page due to it switching back and forth along with the additional string crossings. I also like, except for the beginning and end, to play it backwards.

Cheers




devilhand -> RE: Which scales? (Oct. 29 2019 17:32:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

quote:

Here is youtube video I found. What do you guys think?


I like the use of the metronome. His has good power. A minor observation is that his left hand seems overly tense at times.

I hope you checked out the link in my earlier post. I really like the very last scale on the bottom of the page due to it switching back and forth along with the additional string crossings. I also like, except for the beginning and end, to play it backwards.

Cheers


canteytoque.es is one of the best I have seen on internet. Hope this website will last longer. I'm gonna absorb all the information on it. Examples with audio. Very nice.




kitarist -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 9 2019 20:11:53)

quote:

But people keep going back to the same old misconceptions, phrygian modes, Andalusian cadence etc, it’s not that stuff.


I mentioned Andalusian cadence recently, by which I meant the iv - III -II - I harmonic sequence in E/A phrygian tonality (so II is semitone up from I). Why is it a misconception for flamenco?

I understand about the mode thing (why you say THAT is a misconception), but here we have a harmonic sequence.




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 9 2019 21:11:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

But people keep going back to the same old misconceptions, phrygian modes, Andalusian cadence etc, it’s not that stuff.


I mentioned Andalusian cadence recently, by which I meant the iv - III -II - I harmonic progression in E/A phrygian tonality (so II is semitone up from I). Why is it a misconception for flamenco?

I understand about the mode thing (why you say THAT is a misconception), but here we have a harmonic progression.


Yes well first the Andalusian cadence is NOT a progression really unless you end on iv, in which case why on earth call it iv when it’s actually the i chord, and the previous was the V in actuality? Meaning the “cadence” is actually the V-i in minor. Middle section of Entre dos Aguas is the classic Andalusian cadence in E minor, nobody flamencos or otherwise would confuse that section to be in B phrygian vs E minor. I actually call this a sequence instead of a progression as you often hear a diatonic melodic sequence trace out those chords since baroque times to the present. It’s basically the cycle of fourths progression in disguise. While it works in the phrygian key as well as the relative minor it’s not a necessary component to properly “cadence” in either key. That brings me to the second point.

As a student I was struck early on at how rarely the actual Andalusian cadence appears in solea and other forms, after reading about how it was all based on that supposedly. In practice I found my self play Fmj Cmj Fmj and often avoiding Am altogether. Accompany cante again I noticed it was not important. Of course some folks might argue these are substitutions, however in the end it comes down to simply F-E. There is a change of scale like in the relative minor however it’s not literally the same thing as A minor. Why it works confused me for a while in the beginning until a light bulb went off regarding the secondary dominant Aug6 moves....secondary dominants are like little cadences. The flamenco cadence is not about a long sequence of harmonic moves any more than any song in the minor key is. It all whittles down to V-I and flamenco is no different.

Something simple like sevillanas reveals the three different keys by stating each cadence clearly... in key of A the three cadences are:
1.E or E7-A major
2. E or E7-a minor
3. Bb or Bb7-A phrygian

It’s that simple. Otherwise the third sevillanas would need to state the complete cycle of Dm-C-Bb-A if the Andalusian cadence were of ANY importance and of course it doesn’t have to do that at all.




kitarist -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 9 2019 21:18:57)

quote:

Yes well first the Andalusian cadence is NOT a progression


Dammit, I just meant a sequence of chords. Corrected above. Now will read the rest.. [&o]

EDIT. OK cool. Thank you for the explanation. I can see how F-E / Bb - A is a more stable/enduring/characteristic sequence than the whole 4-chord sequence.

quote:

It’s basically the cycle of fourths progression in disguise.


I don't get this. How is iv-III-II-I a cycle of fourths in disguise? (I am still labelling the degrees as they are in Phrygian tonality)




orsonw -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 10 2019 11:18:28)

Maybe a bit off topic:
I am ignorant about theory but I find these videos Jason made exploring harmony helpful.








Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 10 2019 15:12:58)

quote:

I don't get this. How is iv-III-II-I a cycle of fourths in disguise? (I am still labelling the degrees as they are in Phrygian tonality)


Ok well if you think about Entre dos aguas again. Each chord has two measures:
Em-Em-D7-D7-C-C7-B7-B7, repeat.

So if you replace every other chord with a 4th above and keep it diatonic, you have:

Em-Am-D7-G-C-F#m7b5-B7-(B7).

Please note that this is the cycle of 4ths progression, each set of three chords is like a ii-V-I type cadence, and the reason it is so pleasing and useful as a music device. If you actually play Entre dos Aguas like this you may notice it doesn’t harm the song at all and further more, it’s almost identical to Rio Ancho, his other famous rumba he used to often attach to Entre dos Aguas in performances anyway.

If we now do the same thing to Rio Ancho (expand it to two measures and insert chords after each) we see even more connection to the cycle of 4ths using accidentals to cadence each chord move like this:

Em-E7-Am-A7-D7-D7(b9)-Gmj7-G7-C-C7-F#m7b5 or C7b5/A# which is more flamenco -B7...

So again you can cram those secondary dominants for a nice pull to each chord and it doesn’t affect the melody or song structure. The flamenco cadence is realized in the final phrase with the C7/F# stuff we always hear in Granaina, however the rhythm and phrasing is using this move as a proper secondary dominant here, because the B7 always pulls back to the Em or i chord. In other flamenco applications this cadence is used as the main cadence and B is the place of rest. Going back to a Entre dos Aguas, the opening section is doing this, as does the conclusion of the granaina cante.

My point is the so called Andalusian cadence is nothing more than a reduction of the above sequence.




devilhand -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 10 2019 15:20:01)

quote:

You see what happens in modal music is either 1.drone, or single bass note or chord. OR 2. A vamp...meaning a series of (yes unresolving) chords that actually together spell out a single scale/13th chord.


What is drone and the difference between drone and bass?

quote:

Yes well first the Andalusian cadence is NOT a progression


Another basic question. What's the difference between harmonic progression and harmonic sequence?

As for the Andalusian cadence, Wikipedia says:

Despite the name it is not a true cadence (i.e., occurring only once, when ending a phrase, section, or piece of music); it is most often used as an ostinato (repeating over and over again).




El Burdo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 10 2019 22:44:43)

Very interesting article, that (Wikipedia Andalusian Cadence) enlarging on both my intuitive use of harmonic minor harmony to analyse what's going on, and the notion of the Phrygian Tonic. (That has another fan in Manolo Sanlucar evidently, so that's him and Ricardo...). I'm only thinking of Solea and Siguiriyas here by the way - there may be other toques where it can apply. So...

I mentioned the minor version (mentioned in that Wiki article) in an earlier discussion (so called i, bVII, VI, V) - that is, in Por Arriba - Am, G, F, E to much affront.

If we harmonise A harm. minor (in 3rds) we get - (chord i) AmM7, (ii) Bm7b5, (III) CM7aug5, (iv) Dm7, (V) E7b9b13, (IV) F7#11, (vii) G#dim7.

All chords in Soleá figure there as far as I can see, though they may not be played with all the extensions. I don't know how often we see chords ii, III and vii but they sound fine and provide lots of flexibility for impro.

Unfortunately, the G chord in Soleá has always been a speck of sand in the oyster of perfectly ordered harmony, but I saw it differently tonight. And I found a pearl.

The G chord (ie the bVII) in the AC is not found in A harm. minor...or is it?

In the A harm minor chords above, chord ii is Bm7b5. Any theory-aware Bluesperson worth their gasoline (or anyone who has ever played any T-bone Walker) would recognise Bm7b5 as a rootless G9 chord (ie from the bottom, M3, b7, P9, P5 - note, no G, the implied root) - so as far as I'm concerned the G chord is indeed there by implication....and it contains a very nice b7 too - the F note.

The moral is, Devilhand, learn the A and D (where the same principles will apply) Harmonic minor scales and the chords they harmonise (notes 1,3 ,5 ,7 ,9 etc in each case) and you will have found a secure basis on which to analyse what you then hear bearing in mind that the 'home' chord will be chord V of each of those scales - i.e. E in A harm min, A in D harm minor. Whether you subscribe to the notion of a Phrygian Tonic is up to you but that's the theoretical framework.

The alterations that Jason McGuire plays with (and they do sound great) are likely to be chromatic alterations which may not be so obvious - they are probably doctored 5ths or 9ths though in the context of each chord and won't belong so directly to the related harmonic minors.

Of course, the 'music' is another thing and is probably hiding until the theory nerds have left.




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 11 2019 15:32:56)

quote:

What is drone and the difference between drone and bass?


A single tone or pitch that rings out constantly or perhaps gets repeated rhythmically. In India they have a person perform the sound on a tanpura. A bass guitar can mimic the sustaining drone sound by repeating a single note and perhaps it’s octave. Other
Instruments will play over top of the drone, the notes of whatever intended mode. You can experiment with this on guitar using the low E string as a drone, and practice your modes, anynand all based on E, using the other 5 strings.

quote:

Another basic question. What's the difference between harmonic progression and harmonic sequence?


A sequence repeats an idea. For example a diatonic sequence could be 4 note figure, or an up down arpegio, but it changes position in the scale. A progression is designed to take you away then back towards the tonic, like a mini adventure, the return to home is called the cadence. Reason I used “sequence” referring to Andalusian cadence, is because it refers to a repeating pattern of chords that often couple with a melodic sequence as described, none of the chords necessarily pull to each other until the end when you return to the start, ie they don’t progress. As I showed above you can make it progress by adding in the missing chords of cycle of 4ths, but even when this is done in baroque music say, the section is still thought of as a special sequence section. Bach always used this device to spice things up after he already stated his main musical ideas, such as fugue you will find such a sequence after all the voices have entered. A lot of modern music is left over ideas from baroque practices.

You probably will ask next what’s ostensto vs sequence... ostentato is the specific thing repeating. For example the repeating melodic sequence 1,4,3,2, etc or if a bass note figure is repeating underneath a group of chords. Pachellbell cannon famous sequence using bass line ostenato.




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 11 2019 15:44:40)

quote:

In the A harm minor chords above, chord ii is Bm7b5. Any theory-aware Bluesperson worth their gasoline (or anyone who has ever played any T-bone Walker) would recognise Bm7b5 as a rootless G9 chord (ie from the bottom, M3, b7, P9, P5 - note, no G, the implied root) - so as far as I'm concerned the G chord is indeed there by implication....and it contains a very nice b7 too - the F note.


Sorry but there simply is no G natural involved in a chord scale built from A harmonic minor, neither played nor implied. The Bm7b5 is implying perhaps the missing G#, or diminished 7 chord with added b9th, not a G9 chord. What you are implying by saying “far as I’m concerned...” is that you want to change the scale, ie do away with A harmonic minor and revert to the A natural minor chord scale. Mixing your scales like that is the whole point of defining the overall music as in a Key, NOT built out of a single mode or scale.
If you keep insisting flamenco music is built off of the Phrygian dominant because the home chord or tonic also comes OUT of that chord scale, it implies your G chords and C maj chords are some odd “out notes” that occasionally creep in, and this is simply misleading the truth about what the music is doing.




kitarist -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 11 2019 21:47:34)

quote:

So if you replace every other chord with a 4th above and keep it diatonic, you have:

Em-Am-D7-G-C-F#m7b5-B7-(B7).

Please note that this is the cycle of 4ths progression


Thank you Ricardo. If I understand this correctly, can't we also say this another way - that it is a circle of fifths diatonic sequence of chords if one goes backwards (anti-clockwise) around it? What in classical music seems to occur often and is called a 'circle progression'; a succession through all seven diatonic chords of a diatonic scale by fifths, like so, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi-ii-V-I :



EDIT: For anyone trying to make sense of the harmony discussions, I found the following free resource quite helpful (still making my way through it): http://www.simplifyingtheory.com/

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 12 2019 5:48:41)

Circle of 5ths anti clockwise...correct. Those are 4ths.

Please note the viidim-iii-vi doesn’t resolve or is a weak move and more often appears as iidim/vi-V/vi-vi. Basically ii-V-i in relative minor, and the iii is altered to V/vi by borrowing the V chord from the parallel major V-I move, hence the change of scale (harmonic or melodic minor used in the melody).

Another thing to fix that weak spot might be to use Bb major instead of the Bm7b5, continuing the perfect 4ths concept and avoiding the augmented 4th. Again it won’t be a perfect circle when you do this unless you are willing to change keys further. Using the device in either major or minor keys doesn’t mean you always need to close the complete circle or sequence where you started. See this bach example.

At 1:19 he has finished all 4 voices making a fugue statement, now in D minor, uses the circle of 5ths sequence device to modulate back to G minor. Dm-Gm-Cm-F7-Bb-Eb... but here he introduces F#dim/Eb instead, pulls down to D7 and back in G minor.
Later at 2:24 he has finished the Bb major version of the fugue melody and again uses circle of 5ths sequence to modulate to C minor this time Bb-Cm-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Ddim-G7-Cm.
Finally 2:50 takes back to Gm: Cm-F-Bb-Eb-Adim-D7-Gm.





mark indigo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 12 2019 17:45:00)

quote:

If we harmonise A harm. minor (in 3rds) we get - (chord i) AmM7, (ii) Bm7b5, (III) CM7aug5, (iv) Dm7, (V) E7b9b13, (IV) F7#11, (vii) G#dim7.

All chords in Soleá figure there as far as I can see, though they may not be played with all the extensions. I don't know how often we see chords ii, III and vii but they sound fine and provide lots of flexibility for impro.


Not only do you not have a G major chord as Ricardo pointed out (and it's often played just as a triad without the 7th, let alone extensions), but you don't have a C major chord necessary to accompany the cambio in letras por soleá.

I read an article a while ago which compared the use of harmony in Turkish and Flamenco music. The idea being that they are both non-harmonic song traditions that "borrow" harmony from western classical music for accompaniment. So in that sense flamenco borrows from both major and minor harmony.

To my mind all this "what scale over what chord sequence" discussion is framed in entirely the wrong way. It is trying to apply theoretical concepts from OTHER kinds of music to flamenco, and then trying to make it fit. It's like people are asking for the one single right formula for flamenco instead of actually listening to it and learning it from the ground up.




El Burdo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 12 2019 22:42:27)

The whole point of my interjection is that you DO have a G chord by implication in A harm. minor. Bm7b5 implies the G chord. Play it, then stick a G underneath. (Then stick a G# - what?). And if you add a G note as I also suggested (making an 8 note scale) it's there in black and white. Never did I say you are confined to one scale. The melodic note G is present in the falsetas too often to ignore. But 'harmonically' it is implied.
Similarly - how can you say there is no C major chord? It's chord III (ie notes C and E). If you want a natural 5th it's there in the additional G. But I'm betting if you substitute the extended chord for your C major in the cambio it'd work. If not, use the added G.

quote:

To my mind all this "what scale over what chord sequence" discussion is framed in entirely the wrong way.

I'm not interested in complicating things. The A harm scale describes the environment and that is it. It doesn't prescribe what to play, it describes what is played. It doesn't justify or proscribe what you are allowed to play, it describes what is played.
I really can't see why you want a different theory to account for flamenco. It's like asking for a different kind of science to account for dowsing. The A hm scale accounts for both chords and melodies (with added G) encountered in both Solea and Siguiriyas so it's a pointer to what to study. And as I said many times, the theory is not the music.




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 13 2019 0:01:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

The whole point of my interjection is that you DO have a G chord by implication in A harm. minor. Bm7b5 implies the G chord. Play it, then stick a G underneath. (Then stick a G# - what?). And if you add a G note as I also suggested (making an 8 note scale) it's there in black and white. Never did I say you are confined to one scale. The melodic note G is present in the falsetas too often to ignore. But 'harmonically' it is implied.
Similarly - how can you say there is no C major chord? It's chord III (ie notes C and E). If you want a natural 5th it's there in the additional G. But I'm betting if you substitute the extended chord for your C major in the cambio it'd work. If not, use the added G.

quote:

To my mind all this "what scale over what chord sequence" discussion is framed in entirely the wrong way.

I'm not interested in complicating things. The A harm scale describes the environment and that is it. It doesn't prescribe what to play, it describes what is played. It doesn't justify or proscribe what you are allowed to play, it describes what is played.
I really can't see why you want a different theory to account for flamenco. It's like asking for a different kind of science to account for dowsing. The A hm scale accounts for both chords and melodies (with added G) encountered in both Solea and Siguiriyas so it's a pointer to what to study. And as I said many times, the theory is not the music.


Sorry man, that is simply incorrect. The A harmonic Minor scale by definition has a G#. By “adding” as you say a G natural, you change the scale out right. You can’t pretend that adding an 8th note is the only thing needed. There is a logic behind only seven note names, you can’t have two Gs you are simply altering one. So Next we can add a Bb, an F#, a D#, and so on until you end up claiming “A harmonic minor is the thing.... however you add all the other notes from the Chromatic scale when the chord needs it”.... well that was my point all along, it’s a key, and in this case the key signature is not G# as per the A harmonic minor scale, rather it’s no sharp or flat, meaning G is variable as are any other notes that might appear. Forget my phrygian key thing for now, you can easily argue, if you want, A minor is tonic, but A harmonic minor is a specific scale, and E phrygian dominant a mode of that scale. You don’t even define minor key songs that way. Think of chords as scales that are simply heard all together, maybe that will help as a start. You keep wanting to create new harmonies by inserting notes to your chord scale, and that is simply taken care of by understanding what being in a key is, because when you do that you alter both the chords and scales at once, rather than you have this confused G note hybrid that doesn’t know if it’s making a normal chord or an augmented or diminished one.




El Burdo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 13 2019 6:48:35)

We are going to have to agree to disagree Ricardo. I am, contrary to what you might think open to the idea of a Phrygian key, though I see it as an unnecessary complication of something that is quite sufficient to describe a musical identity. The OP wanted to know what scales to practise and Ahm was my suggestion.
quote:

you want to change the scale, ie do away with A harmonic minor and revert to the A natural minor chord scale
There really is no point in putting up statements that people haven't made in order to shoot them down. I am happy that A harmonic minor remains core to what I hear, but that melodically a G note must be added as, as you seem to think I haven't noticed, there is no diatonic G.

quote:

So Next we can add a Bb, an F#, a D#, and so on until you end up claiming “A harmonic minor is the thing.... however you add all the other notes from the Chromatic scale when the chord needs it”....
Only G. Just the one addition will do it. But on principle, I don't see the problem with adding notes when needed.

Now, you seem to have a fixation with a defined key and its representation, rather than harmony. That's irrelevant to me. I don't care how you notate a piece. Use whatever key sig you want (within reason) and then add the appropriate accidentals when needed in the text. Adding a note doesn't change anything.

Does your methodology account for there being a G and a G# in this Phrygian key? What's the key signature? I haven't read your attempts at explanation on the grounds of their enormous tedium - note that many eventually say they are confused by your explanation - but I'll have a go as I'm open to it. I don't necessarily think that all truths are simple but this is not the musical version of Relativity. I think all this circle of 5ths/4ths, Neopolitan 6th stuff is smoke and mirrors. It obfuscates rather than clarifies and I suspect that might be the purpose. My purpose is to clarify and where holes appear, account for them.

I've also asked a couple of questions which have gone unanswered: viz: are Cmajor7th#5 chords played? G#dim7? (These are of course respectively E/C and G7b9 without the G) This could be a contribution to the debate on the 'jazzification' of new flamenco, and
quote:

do many falsetas for Soleá, Siguiriyas etc. omit the minor 3rd and allow that enormous m3rd leap? (e.g. E F G#A....) It sounds far more Arabic and I would have expected to hear it more often.
I guess that should strictly be an augmented 2nd. Actually, I am quite happy to hear C# played instead of C occasionally (por arriba).

(Just as a final side note - there is a chord, the sus b9, which is called 'Phrygian'. It appears mostly in jazz from the 80s when the world had gone scale crazy. Think Chick Corea.)




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 13 2019 11:50:32)

quote:

Only G. Just the one addition will do it. But on principle, I don't see the problem with adding notes when needed.


As I said before flamenco music has a lot more than a single 8 note scale and it’s chords going on. The falsetas and the singing simply make use of the entire chromatic spectrum. It’s misleading to point to a single scale and say the music is based on that. Incidentally the home chord based on E using the 8 note scale could also be the famous E7#9, as it has both your G notes. However this is NOT an important chord used in flamenco any more than the super locrian scale is (that you probably know jazz guys like using on the chord when improvisation occurs). It is simply more correct to view the two G notes as variable in flamenco context.

About if the other chords you wrote do they appear in flamenco, the answer is yes they can and do, IN ADDITION to a bunch of others 😂. By focusing only on a scale and it’s chords you miss the entire bigger picture of both what’s going on and what’s available to do that is new or personal yet still authentic. I’m not saying others don’t do as you imply, however their end results always miss the mark and end up sounding fake spanishy.

About 80’s chick corea etc in jazz... it goes back to miles Davis playing SOLEA and Flamenco Sketches etc his inspiration being flamenco music that already existed, so people like Paco learning jazz from guys associating with Miles was simply taking back the fusion ideas already going on with his roots.




El Burdo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 13 2019 12:50:11)

Interesting. How about the E, F, G#, A line? i.e. without the G natural? How usual is that? And the C#?




Ricardo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 13 2019 15:03:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

Interesting. How about the E, F, G#, A line? i.e. without the G natural? How usual is that? And the C#?

Earlier I posted this link and you can see your notes used in the Picado falseta of sabicas.... and a bunch of other accidentals as well, and that is only in ONE falseta. Some are used purely as chromatic steps, but things like the C# on the 5th string are used to pull back to D nicely before resolving the phrase using natural phrygian at the end. Please note the E phrygian dominant proper didn’t even appear.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=320771&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1




El Burdo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 13 2019 16:29:55)

Thanks. Do you mean the Aires de Puerto Reale? That picado is mostly a chromatic line which is not quite what I meant. I was wondering about the deliberate missing out of the G natural, preferencing the G# giving that enormous arabic 3 s/t interval. I'm expecting to hear it when I get around to Zambra.
I seem to remember hearing it watching a teenage Lole and her mother sing an arabic song, with what looked like Manuel Morao on guitar - from memory.

quote:

Please note the E phrygian dominant proper didn’t even appear.


[:D] It doesn't have to




mark indigo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 13 2019 19:10:23)

quote:

The whole point of my interjection is that you DO have a G chord by implication in A harm. minor. Bm7b5 implies the G chord. Play it, then stick a G underneath. (Then stick a G# - what?).

A harmonic minor has G# and no G. If you stick a G underneath B-7b5 you have gone outside A harmonic minor. If you are harmonising with A harmonic minor your only option is G#

quote:

Similarly - how can you say there is no C major chord? It's chord III (ie notes C and E). If you want a natural 5th it's there in the additional G. But I'm betting if you substitute the extended chord for your C major in the cambio it'd work. If not, use the added G

There is no C major triad. If you harmonise A harmonic minor you get a C Augmented triad, so no C major chord.

So Harmonic minor is not sufficient to explain what's going on in phrygian flamenco. It also plays into the misconception of people, especially with some kind of classical training (in my experience), that it is in a minor key. It's not, it's an entirely separate thing to major or minor keys.

I don't think that's complicating anything. A harmonic minor alone is insufficient to describe what is played in phrygian flamenco.

quote:

I am happy that A harmonic minor remains core to what I hear,

I think you're hearing it wrong[:D][:D][:D]

it's called "por arriba" 'cos the home chord is E, everything is based around E and resolves to E.

A harmonic minor implies key of A minor. I think that's wrong, and anyone who hears it that way is hearing it wrong. I also don't think that's complicating anything, it's actually really simple, and based entirely on what is happening in the music, on what is played and sung.




El Burdo -> RE: Which scales? (Nov. 13 2019 20:15:27)

quote:

quote:

The whole point of my interjection is that you DO have a G chord by implication in A harm. minor. Bm7b5 implies the G chord. Play it, then stick a G underneath. (Then stick a G# - what?).

A harmonic minor has G# and no G. If you stick a G underneath B-7b5 you have gone outside A harmonic minor. If you are harmonising with A harmonic minor your only option is G#

quote:

Similarly - how can you say there is no C major chord? It's chord III (ie notes C and E). If you want a natural 5th it's there in the additional G. But I'm betting if you substitute the extended chord for your C major in the cambio it'd work. If not, use the added G

There is no C major triad. If you harmonise A harmonic minor you get a C Augmented triad, so no C major chord.

So Harmonic minor is not sufficient to explain what's going on in phrygian flamenco. It also plays into the misconception of people, especially with some kind of classical training (in my experience), that it is in a minor key. It's not, it's an entirely separate thing to major or minor keys.

I don't think that's complicating anything. A harmonic minor alone is insufficient to describe what is played in phrygian flamenco.

quote:

I am happy that A harmonic minor remains core to what I hear,

I think you're hearing it wrong

it's called "por arriba" 'cos the home chord is E, everything is based around E and resolves to E.

A harmonic minor implies key of A minor. I think that's wrong, and anyone who hears it that way is hearing it wrong. I also don't think that's complicating anything, it's actually really simple, and based entirely on what is happening in the music, on what is played and sung.

_____________________________

 


Hello Mark Indigo. I've addressed all the points you refer to. You don't get it, fine. Another time.




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