Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof)

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soclydeza85 -> Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 25 2017 23:37:01)
I've come to realize that this site is really the only presence of any kind of flamenco community (hence why I feel it is important to keep going). I've been playing guitar since I was a kid and I have met many players of all different styles from different areas but have never once met anybody who plays flamenco. I've looked online to try and hook up with other guitar players/musicians in my state (New Jersey, USA) and have found all different kinds of players but I cannot find anyone who plays flamenco. In the online world, just about every forum for flamenco (aside from this one) is dead, except for maybe a reddit page on life support that tells beginners to get into flamenco by listening to Rodrigo y Gabriela. I've tried joining Facebook groups and of the few that exist for flamenco, they're pretty dead and are really just glorified classical guitar pages anyway. I have no problem finding stuff for other niche styles (like gypsy jazz), but flamenco seems like a style the many guitar players admire (if they know what it is) but never try to touch. All this had led me to the conclusion that flamenco is a widely unpopular and underappreciated style (outside of Spain). Perhaps it is a good thing, since anything that becomes popular tends to become watered down over time and lose its roots but I'm just surprised that a style that is so recognizable is also so unpopular, in terms of the amount of people who play it. Does anybody else notice this or am I just looking in the wrong places?

Jw -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 26 2017 11:08:07)
Yes, this thing is quite familiar but also quite understandable. I could write hear hours and hours but try to keep it short. First: it's traditional Spanish music which means it's not popular worldwide music with several elements which could be shared easily. Specially if you look at the letras and other written lyrics. Compare with other traditional musics from the world, Indian raga, Irish folk or dance, Hungarian music, Russian folk etc. etc. and the main point is to look at the styles which doesn't have easy rhythm to dance or popular harmonies. Second: Rhythmically it's really complicated music and that usually kills the motivation to learn it more. Everyone who really can play for example improvised buleria, knows how long it takes to reach that point. Third: The guitar playing is only one little thing in the whole flamenco scene. And playing it well means that you have to understand singing and dancing also well. More years to take. Fourth: Flamenco is not radio played a lot. People are not very familiar with the style. Radio usually makes music to come more popular because people get used to it even without thinking about it. How many markets you know where you can hear flamenco as a background music :-) ...and so many other reasons. I mentioned only a few and explaned them very shortly but these give a little bit the idea. I live in Europe and here things are getting better and better. Usually people hear flamenco once or twice in a year even they don't know anything about it but still lot work left.

Piwin -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 26 2017 11:40:00)
quote: flamenco is a widely unpopular and underappreciated style (outside of Spain). Don't worry, it's also widely unpopular and underappreciated in Spain. [;)]

BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 26 2017 17:44:57)
As Piwin notes above, flamenco is widely unpopular and underappreciated in Spain. It has always had its niche in Andalucia, and though it has been many years since I was last in Spain, I suspect that flamenco as we know it is declining in popularity in Andalucia as well. I would like to think I am wrong, but I predict that flamenco as we have known it (even in its more "modern" version) will eventually disappear as a separate genre. What will kill it will be the desperate attempt by flamenco musicians and singers to remain "relevant." To remain "relevant" to the shallow audiences of today and in the future (both in Spain and around the world) will entail being absorbed into so-called "World Music," "Hip Hop," and other genres, to the point where it will be unrecognizable as flamenco. Audience demand will drive the flamenco musicians' attempts at "relevance," an audience whose members follow one another off the cliff like lemmings in their own desperate attempt to keep up with the latest trend. Bill

tele -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 26 2017 22:39:51)
No it will not disappear. Even though I can't hear much flamenco here on the streets of andalucia(besides the annoying hang clapping), the music itself is so deeply rooted in andalucian culture and character, it's the same as saying blues would disappear in Mississippi. It's unfortunate the popularity of flamenco puro is declining among the young people especially(guitar playing and singing). Altough the dancing classes remain very popular. To say the least it will never disappear from Cadiz area, as long as it's populated. It's just too deeply rooted. [:)] But hey, if you know how to play or sing a rare form of music which everyone is kind of familiar with, you'll get respected all around the world. To be honest, considering that flamenco is "just" gypsy music of people from andalucia, it's a surprise it's listened to and played all around the world.

Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 1:53:09)
Honestly it's not just flamenco....all good music is becoming fringe. It's because of the internet and the way the world has been going, the evolution of the music industry has affected everyone. Playing music is the only way to make money in the industry, charging high ticket fees, and many of the greats have died. It's simply evolution.

jalalkun -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 9:33:37)
Yup...interest in flamenco is declining because it's such a complex form of music that you need to learn first in order to grasp. It's just the same with similarly complex forms of music, just like Ricardo mentioned. For example Turkish Arts Music, Classical Arabic Music, just to name two examples. Highly complex and nearly incomprehensible for the untrained ear. Today's music styles are increasingly simplified so they are more popular to the majority of the listeners. And that's most probably why flamenco will stay a nieche.

mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 13:28:00)
quote: the annoying hang clapping [&:]

BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 14:36:20)
quote: Yup...interest in flamenco is declining because it's such a complex form of music that you need to learn first in order to grasp. It's just the same with similarly complex forms of music, just like Ricardo mentioned. For example Turkish Arts Music, Classical Arabic Music, just to name two examples. Highly complex and nearly incomprehensible for the untrained ear. Today's music styles are increasingly simplified so they are more popular to the majority of the listeners. And that's most probably why flamenco will stay a niche. As interest in flamenco declines in Andalucia, Spain, and around the world, it will increasingly occupy an ever-smaller niche, to the point where it eventually will disappear except for a few individuals who keep it alive, much as groups such as the Folger Consort in Washington, DC keep Medieval and Renaissance music alive by mastering period instruments and playing pieces from those eras. The point about music styles being increasingly simplified so they are more popular to the majority of listeners is a good one. It demonstrates once again the leveling effect of catering to the lowest common denominator. Bill

Morante -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 15:00:40)
quote: As interest in flamenco declines in Andalucia, Spain, and around the world, it will increasingly occupy an ever-smaller niche Quite right. When I began my life in Cádiz, there were 2 singers, considered the most authentic remnants of the Cadiz style. I began to ask why nobody in the Ayuntamiento, the Diputacion, the Peñas wanted to record them for posterity. After all, everybody was complaining that nobody had recorded El Mellizo, nor his sons, nor any of the old cantaores. So using money from my pension, I recorded both Juan Silva and José Millán. (Recording in Spain was cheap then). Both have died, along with flamenco in Cádiz. Everybody thought I was a crazy guiri, but now the recordings have the same historical value as the recordings of Alan Lomax. This Foro is a foro de guiris, but guiris who have more interest in flamenco and its survival than most Andaluces. If flamenco survives it will be though the action of aficionados, both Spanish y forasteros. Animo[:)

mrstwinkle -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 15:36:31)
I can see issues with the economics of how it tends to be run and promoted. For example I ended up flying to Tomatito in Germany in January this year because I need more than a week's notice to book flights / accomodation etc typical in Spanish promotion of events.

tele -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 17:59:25)
quote: ORIGINAL: mark indigo quote: the annoying hang clapping [&:] OK, hand

soclydeza85 -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 23:00:04)
quote: Honestly it's not just flamenco....all good music is becoming fringe. It's because of the internet and the way the world has been going, the evolution of the music industry has affected everyone. Playing music is the only way to make money in the industry, charging high ticket fees, and many of the greats have died. It's simply evolution. I agree 100%, Ricardo, but anytime I talk about it (with non-musicians) they just tell me I'm getting old and curmudgeonly. I used to work as an audio engineer and the only real way to get any money/business was to go after the oversimplified pop type stuff, the more interesting stuff was a rare treat and usually paid out of pocket by someone who just played/wrote music as a hobby. When I used to do solo gigs, I quickly learned that people won't really take the time to listen to something unless it's in 4/4 and consists of repeating 3 or 4 open chords for 2-3 minutes, which gets boring real quick, I guess it depends where you play though. I could go on and on about how musicianship in popular music has been declining drastically, if it even exists at all in some cases, but I digress. I guess it's always been this way, more or less, but at least there would be great players in the mix here and there. quote: Yup...interest in flamenco is declining because it's such a complex form of music that you need to learn first in order to grasp. Jazz is a complex style which is pretty hard to grasp as a non-musician/non-enthusiast. It's a pretty sought after style for musicians, due to the melodic and chordal mastery required to play it; I'm just surprised that flamenco isn't received the same way by guitarists, being that it requires such technical skill to play even basic stuff. I guess, regardless of the tonal complexity of jazz, you can still tap you foot to it, unlike flamenco (unless you're familiar with it).

Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 27 2017 23:08:59)
quote: Jazz is a complex style which is pretty hard to grasp as a non-musician/non-enthusiast. It's a pretty sought after style for musicians, due to the melodic and chordal mastery required to play it; I'm just surprised that flamenco isn't received the same way by guitarists, being that it requires such technical skill to play even basic stuff. I guess, regardless of the tonal complexity of jazz, you can still tap you foot to it, unlike flamenco (unless you're familiar with it). Should be no surprise then that the Jazz greats have been saying the same exact thing about jazz music scene lately as you are saying about Flamenco. There is a difference however, at least in USA. Music taught in college, meaning something you can get a degree in, normally offer Classical music (of course) and Jazz to some degree. Flamenco music is absolutely fringe and specific to one instrument, so you can't normally get a "degree" in it. Spain has only recently started to recognize Flamenco as real music worthy of study in University. And of course, we aficionados have lots of opinions about how that goes. I don't foresee any improvement coming in the future. However, classical guitar in my neck of the woods is exploding in schools in terms of popularity, so that is a good sign as Flamenco guitar and Classical guitar are such close cousins.

JasonM -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 28 2017 0:54:55)
The future of flamenco is a robot playing paco de Lucia in our living rooms while we look at our phones. Let's see what happens when we give the robot a Yamaha CG171SF to play! Also isn't flamenco guitar mostly the same 3 chords played over and over ;)

Richard Jernigan -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 28 2017 1:16:26)
quote: From the Austin Classical Guitar web page: Developing guitar as an effective, inspiring, and rigorous course subject in American public schools is the cornerstone of ACG Education. Having assisted with the creation of hundreds of new guitar programs around North America serving tens of thousands of diverse students, we know first-hand that guitar is a uniquely powerful means of bringing the widely documented benefits of fine arts study to young people. Our national and international services include curriculum development, teacher training, advocacy, and assessment protocols. Locally, our programs provide individual lessons and instruments for low-income students and programs, hundreds of annual student performance opportunities, college scholarships, direct teacher assistance, and daily classes for incarcerated youth at the Gardner Betts Juvenile Justice Center and braille-adapted instruction at Texas for the Blind & Visually Impaired. Every year Austin Classical Guitar puts on both a classical concert series with the likes of Berta Rojas, Pepe Romero, Jorge Caballero, etc., and at least a couple of flamenco performances. Tomatito sold out the Paramount Theater downtown, Grisha has put on at least one show in the big concert hall downtown, Niño de Pura filled the usual hall for classical concerts, and Jose Luis de la Paz packed the smaller Texas Union Theater, with a percussionist--not just cajon, but a full setup plus cajon. They blew me away with a complexity of syncopation, and tightly controlled but very rapid compas, like I have never heard. Wow. Even some fantastic baile when Paloma Fantova came with Tomatito. I feel privileged to live in the midst of such a scene. But, no cante worth mentioning....and I doubt that there ever will be any here in Austin. RNJ

Dudnote -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 28 2017 7:10:44)
I agree Richard, the big names can still pack out venues. I was surprised when Nuñez played Besançon in (about) 2008, I thought there would be nobody there, but it was hard to spot empty seats - and the cante was good! Hang out at the Rivesaltes festival in France and you'll meet 10 year old French kids who are obsessed with baille. The huge advantage to a flamenco addict of cante over guitar or dance is that it's far harder driving your car whilst ripping out your arpegios or waving your arms in the air [:D]

mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 28 2017 13:35:18)
quote: I can't hear much flamenco here on the streets of andalucia (besides the annoying hang clapping) quote: [&:] quote: OK, hand I hadn't even noticed the misprint/misspelling - I just thought it was "unfortunate" that you found hand clapping annoying....

tele -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Nov. 28 2017 15:04:13)
It sure is. But I don't mind proper palmeros.[;)] I would like to add that it seems like everyone in andalucia thinks they know how to do flamenco palmas, especially after a drink or two[8D]

Cervantes -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 1 2017 14:54:35)
For me, the fact that Flamenco is not popular is a deep attraction. I don't think Flamenco has ever been very popular worldwide. For my whole life in SoCal the only exposure I got to flamenco was at concert about 35 years ago when Paco Pena happened to be playing in a show that featured some other great guitarists. It was a big hall and it was not easy to see or hear him play, at the time I thought ok this guy is good but it didn't blow me away or have a big impression on me. The guitarist that did that day was Joe Pass. It wasn't until decades later that I stumbled into Flamenco. I think american jazz is in the same situation when I think about the greats like Miles, Coltrane, Joe Pass, Benson, Errol Garner, etc. You just don't hear that kind of music and creativity today.

mrstwinkle -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 1 2017 16:00:40)
It is easy to fall into the trap of being dismissive of modern music. Some techie stuff like Skrillez is I find musically quite nteresting and not just dumb thumping.

Brendan -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 2 2017 18:00:48)
The annual London flamenco festival at Sadler’s Wells always sells out, which sounds healthy. But what that means is that in a city of over 8 million people, the biggest names in Flamenco are booked into a theatre with 1500 seats. I’ve noticed that guitarists have disappeared from the Sadler’s Wells programme—years ago I saw Tomatito, but there has been no big name for a while. It seems to be driven by baile (and in fairness, Sadler’s Wells is a dedicated dance venue). They do have cante: this year, I’m going to see Carmen Linares. https://www.sadlerswells.com/whats-on/2018/flamenco-festival-london-carmen-linares-arcangel-and-marina-heredia-tempo-of-light/ Didn’t Gerardo Nuñez say that the next big thing in flamenco will come from outside Spain?

mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 3 2017 19:13:33)
quote: The annual London flamenco festival at Sadler’s Wells always sells out, which sounds healthy. But what that means is that in a city of over 8 million people, the biggest names in Flamenco are booked into a theatre with 1500 seats. I’ve noticed that guitarists have disappeared from the Sadler’s Wells programme—years ago I saw Tomatito, but there has been no big name for a while. It seems to be driven by baile (and in fairness, Sadler’s Wells is a dedicated dance venue). They do have cante: this year, I’m going to see Carmen Linares. It's a dedicated dance venue, and ALL the shows feature dance. Tomatito had a dancer. Vicente had a dancer. Gerardo had a dancer (Carmen). The "cante" shows also have a dancer, this one with Carmen Linares "accompanied by the outstanding dancer Ana Morales." I went to the Esperanza Fernandez show in 2016, also with Ana Morales dancing.

Jw -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 3 2017 19:36:29)
I don't know how many of you live in the US but what I read here looks like that quite many. It's not of course a problem but what I mean is that you may see Flamenco life maybe by a little bit different way...Not sure but it feels so because of these answers in the forum. Here in Europe flamenco is doing well and the popularity is increasing every year. Of course is not POP music or anything close to that but if we look at the times when Paco started the times have changed a lot. For example the flamenco players who know sheet music and understand a bit of other music styles are asked more and more to visit and play with other musicians and music styles. There are a lot of combinations with jazz, etho and flamenco players. There are MANY flamenco festivals in almost every European country. Many jazz and ethno festivals include flamenco slots into their programs etc. Every countries have their own flamenco associations and other aficidanos etc. It has developed a LOT! Even if I compare myself. I live in Finland (only 5,5 million people), I have my own house and I make my living ONLY by playing flamenco. Not teaching. I pay my Bank loan by playing flamenco. I visit concert halls, clubs, different kind of events, private parties etc. Of course I play abroad also but in the end this is possible. The numbers of people who have started flamenco as a hobby have not raised a lot except the dance. Music is obviously the trickiest part to start and learn. Dance is more easy to start I believe. You can only dance without understand the music, and here I mean as a hobby. Not as a professional. Some of them reach the point to became a pro but most of them only do it for fun after their daily work. I already wrote couple of reasons which I think are the reasons why flamenco can never be really popular but still it's growing and it's doing well. And one big thing is also money. If flamenco trio travels to US or Japan the cost is quite high. If they fly to Finland, it's a little percent from that price. It's quite natural that small clubs can ask them to play in France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Holland, Belgium an so on compared to play in US or Asia. Of course they play all over the world but still how often and how many different players you can hear is question. Compare how many Country musicians play in Europe??? Many but compared to US?? It's totally different thing.

Escribano -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 3 2017 20:03:20)
quote: It's a dedicated dance venue, and ALL the shows feature dance I saw El Chocolate and José Merce with Moraíto there in 2004/5 and there was no baile.

mark indigo -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 4 2017 13:13:23)
quote: I saw El Chocolate and José Merce with Moraíto there in 2004/5 and there was no baile. Ok, so it's gone downhill since then![:D] I have programs from most of the last 8 or 9 years, and maybe a few older ones. I can check. Certainly the last few years all the shows have featured at least one dancer even if the main artist is a guitarist or singer.

tele -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 4 2017 22:55:17)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jw I have my own house and I make my living ONLY by playing flamenco. Not teaching. I pay my Bank loan by playing flamenco. I visit concert halls, clubs, different kind of events, private parties etc. Of course I play abroad also but in the end this is possible. isot rispektit[;)] this is unbelievable[:)]

Escribano -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 5 2017 8:26:58)
quote: Certainly the last few years all the shows have featured at least one dancer even if the main artist is a guitarist or singer. Certainly, I saw lots of baile just don't recall them with Jose although, upon reflection, there may have been one with Chocolate with him singing from the wings.

chester -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 6 2017 4:53:13)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jw I don't know how many of you live in the US but what I read here looks like that quite many. It's not of course a problem but what I mean is that you may see Flamenco life maybe by a little bit different way...Not sure but it feels so because of these answers in the forum. Here in Europe flamenco is doing well and the popularity is increasing every year. Of course is not POP music or anything close to that but if we look at the times when Paco started the times have changed a lot. For example the flamenco players who know sheet music and understand a bit of other music styles are asked more and more to visit and play with other musicians and music styles. There are a lot of combinations with jazz, etho and flamenco players. There are MANY flamenco festivals in almost every European country. Many jazz and ethno festivals include flamenco slots into their programs etc. Every countries have their own flamenco associations and other aficidanos etc. It has developed a LOT! Even if I compare myself. I live in Finland (only 5,5 million people), I have my own house and I make my living ONLY by playing flamenco. Not teaching. I pay my Bank loan by playing flamenco. I visit concert halls, clubs, different kind of events, private parties etc. Of course I play abroad also but in the end this is possible. The numbers of people who have started flamenco as a hobby have not raised a lot except the dance. Music is obviously the trickiest part to start and learn. Dance is more easy to start I believe. You can only dance without understand the music, and here I mean as a hobby. Not as a professional. Some of them reach the point to became a pro but most of them only do it for fun after their daily work. I already wrote couple of reasons which I think are the reasons why flamenco can never be really popular but still it's growing and it's doing well. And one big thing is also money. If flamenco trio travels to US or Japan the cost is quite high. If they fly to Finland, it's a little percent from that price. It's quite natural that small clubs can ask them to play in France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Holland, Belgium an so on compared to play in US or Asia. Of course they play all over the world but still how often and how many different players you can hear is question. Compare how many Country musicians play in Europe??? Many but compared to US?? It's totally different thing. Ole tu! Always great to hear about people succeeding in art! I definitely enjoy the videos you share here Jw. quote: I've come to realize that this site is really the only presence of any kind of flamenco community I also know quite a few people who are pretty involved in making flamenco music. It's just that they're not on internet forums -- that's more of a flamenco-geek thing. ;-)

mrstwinkle -> RE: Flamenco popularity (or lack thereof) (Dec. 6 2017 9:17:21)
Danger of being on a purist forum like this is that most people are going to gravitate towards something the masses are not. Template for getting it out of the gutter? Paco / Camaron. My after-the-event perspective on what worked (bearing in mind I got into flamenco after both had died) Pure skill and edgy sounds 'Songs' - Almoraima, not por bulerias 4 Fashionable (for the era) clothing Dumping stupid grimacing facial expressions and only-appeals-to-purists-dresses Good promoters (unlike current trend of 10 days notice) Looks / charisma Yes, I know most of these you're giong to give me examples to prove me wrong. I'm talking patterns here.

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