RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Full Version)

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norumba -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 19:08:34)

quote:

For what it's worth (the cost of a doughnut and a cup of coffee?), I don't agree with the above-cited quote. If it's "all subjective" and "there's no right or wrong", then musical nihilism reigns. The definition of "flamenco" and therefore "fakemenco" is not just what anyone wants it to be.


i understand that -- and the rest of your post -- but unless there's a universal authoritative definition of "what is flamenco" accepted by one and all, theres always going to be some degree of subjectivity. I think it would be tough to get everyone to agree on a singular definition, which is why we have the fakemenco question.

Youre right, there are certain attributes that need to be present for it to be flamenco. Its not just compas because there are cantes and toques libres. You can stay to a palo but have a weak rhythm section and introduce so many cheesy smooth-jazz chord voicings that it bears little resemblance to anything it descended from, but its still the letter of the law. When a genre evolves far enough from its roots, at waht point do you call it something else? and how do you differentiate from fakemenco?

i guess we have to distinguish between fakemenco and modern watereddown flamenco that we simply dont like but would still technically be defined flamenco :)



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 20:53:06)

quote:

I think it would be tough to get everyone to agree on a singular definition, which is why we have the fakemenco question.

Perhaps a verbal definition is tough, but pointing to examples that everyone would agree with is quite easy (Caracol with Melchor, Agujetas with Moraito, terremoto with morao, Camaron with Cepero, etc) And to remind about the topic, it was "fakemenco that is GOOD music"...so a lot of argument about labeling and what is simply not good or acceptable flamenco music is moot in this discussion. Perhaps if the OP would have first made a definition, but I don't even think that was necessary, the question was clear as day to most of us. What ends up happening is out come our lists and some people reading have their sensibilities hurt do to the fact "fakemenco" has a negative connotation.

For example I am guilty of putting Tarrega in the fakemenco basket...that is because I was tying to be cute and point out fakemenco is pretty old concept. Sure I am ok to remove him from the basket but the simple fact is back in that time even, the lines were blurred due the importance of Spain's most popular instrument. For sure an interesting topic of history might be "Tarrega and Flamenco".... just as the Segovia Flamenco connection which has already been an important focus by historians. The very first "flamenco" method book by Rafael Marin I would probably have to stick into the fakemenco basket honestly, and not even the "good" basket [;)][:D]



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 21:16:36)

quote:

some people reading have their sensibilities hurt do to the fact "fakemenco" has a negative connotation.

For example I am guilty of putting Tarrega in the fakemenco basket...

If you're referring to my questioning of putting Tarrega in the "fakemenco basket" my sensibilities were not hurt - especially not out of any fondness for or loyalty to Tarrega music (I was more put out by being called a "Tarrega lover" in a later post!) - I just think that Tarrega music is really nothing to do with flamenco, rather than being a cheap imitation of it. Maybe "fakeChopin" would be more appropriate for Tarrega music?[;)]


quote:

fakemenco is pretty old concept.

I thought it was invented by Jason McGuire - didn't he always call it "fakemenco™"[:D]



joselito_fletan -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 21:35:06)

OMG Postmodernism in Flamenco! Wondering if Michel Foucault was ever into Flamenco? :o). But well said BarkellWH.



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 21:42:48)

Yes McGuire coined the term, but the concept is very old was my point.

I forgot to add these guys doing some great spanish classical flamenco fusion, great fakemenco IMO...well better than Falla Albeniz junk at least:




mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 22:52:16)

quote:

I forgot to add these guys doing some great spanish classical flamenco fusion, great fakemenco IMO...

but is it fakemenco or fakeclasico? Seems pretty real to me, I don't think it's fake anything.

whatever label applies i guess also would apply to Riqueni's Sevilla Suite. That's not "fakemenco", it's "authentic Riqueni"!

quote:

well better than Falla Albeniz junk at least:

Whether it's junk or not I can't comment and don't care, but Falla/Albeniz I always thought owed as much to French classical/Debussy as to anything Spanish, and I understood took as many "national" themes from other regions as Andalucia/flamenco.... I don't have a degree in music or anything like that so it's just what I pick up from here and there....

Vaughan Williams took themes/melodies from English folk songs, harmonised them, used them as material for classical treatment and composition. His music is not "fakefolk" it's classical that borrowed material from the folk songs. But then, I don't suppose anyone would confuse his music as "folk music" 'cos it's obviously orchestral and therefore "classical". But I guess someone from a different country and culture who didn't really know what "English folk music" and "Western European classical music" were supposed to sound like could, in their ignorance confuse Vaughan Williams for folk music.... would that then make it "fakefolk"?

I think this is the problem with your definition of "fakemenco" - it seems to be entirely based on what someone other than the artist mistakes the artists music for, so could be anything depending on the level of ignorance of the person mistaking the other music (western classical music/acoustic guitar music/salsa music/mariachi band) for flamenco.



Piwin -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 2 2017 0:54:24)

I'm sure 50,000 years ago there was music that was considered fake "bone whistling" or fake "hitting rocks together".
And in 50,000 years time, our half-biological half-machine descendants will be making music with graviational waves and there will be fake "crushing stars together". I can see it now. The heated debate of year 52,017 around Zorg's stellar symphony n21.

Categories are often fuzzy at the edges and it doesn't help that definitions evolve over time. Most cases are pretty easy to figure out. You hear it, you know whether it's flamenco or not. Case closed. But we'll spend most of our time arguing about the few cases that are at the edges, in the fuzzy zone. Mainly just because we enjoy arguing.



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 7 2017 9:38:10)

quote:

Categories are often fuzzy at the edges and it doesn't help that definitions evolve over time.


where definitions are concerned I like to give the last word to the dictionary:

"Fake: to cause (something inferior or not genuine) to appear more valuable, desirable or real by fraud or pretence."

There is a clear implication here of intent.



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 7 2017 19:49:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Categories are often fuzzy at the edges and it doesn't help that definitions evolve over time.


where definitions are concerned I like to give the last word to the dictionary:

"Fake: to cause (something inferior or not genuine) to appear more valuable, desirable or real by fraud or pretence."

There is a clear implication here of intent.


"Fraudmenco"



kitarist -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 7 2017 21:22:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Categories are often fuzzy at the edges and it doesn't help that definitions evolve over time.


where definitions are concerned I like to give the last word to the dictionary:

"Fake: to cause (something inferior or not genuine) to appear more valuable, desirable or real by fraud or pretence."

There is a clear implication here of intent.


Well this is hardly surprising since you are quoting the definition for the VERB "to fake" which carries agency with it by default. The adjective's definition, however, is - "fake (adj): not genuine; spurious". This is a more general meaning which does not necessitate (but could include) intent.



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BarkellWH -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 7 2017 22:01:17)

quote:

Well this is hardly surprising since you are quoting the definition for the VERB "to fake" which carries agency with it by default. The adjective's definition, however, is - "fake (adj): not genuine; spurious".


It seems to me that a "fake" van Gogh (for example) would be the second order result of the art forger's original "intent" to create (forge) the fake. Thus "intent" would be inherent in the final, "fake" painting as a fake.

I think it might get a little more dicey when speaking of "fakemenco." Clearly, "intent" would be present if a guitarist knowingly passed off "spanishy" riffs as flamenco. But it could be that someone thinks he is playing flamenco when he clearly is not: not following compas, not playing any known palo, etc. In his ignorance he doesn't realize it is not flamenco, but the element of "intent" is not there, even though it could be called fakemenco.

Bill



kitarist -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 7 2017 22:21:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
But it could be that someone thinks he is playing flamenco when he clearly is not: not following compas, not playing any known palo, etc. In his ignorance he doesn't realize it is not flamenco, but the element of "intent" is not there, even though it could be called fakemenco.

Bill


Yup, this is what I meant to convey too; I added a sentence to my post for clarity.



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 12:39:08)

quote:

ell this is hardly surprising since you are quoting the definition for the VERB "to fake" which carries agency with it by default. The adjective's definition, however, is - "fake (adj): not genuine; spurious". This is a more general meaning which does not necessitate (but could include) intent.


i look things up in the dictionary cos i'm an ignorant peasant and struggle with understanding what people are talking about at the best of times.

seeing as we are picking nits (which i have to do often cos i sleep in a haystack), is "fakemenco" a noun or an adjective?

and does the noun: "an object, person, or act that is not genuine; sham, counterfeit, or forgery" imply intent or not?



Morante -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 12:42:42)

Anybody is capable of fakeflamenco[;)]




mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 12:44:45)

quote:

But it could be that someone thinks he is playing flamenco when he clearly is not: not following compas, not playing any known palo, etc. In his ignorance he doesn't realize it is not flamenco, but the element of "intent" is not there, even though it could be called fakemenco.


you mean like someone who confuses the word "Rolex" with the word "watch", and makes a watch and calls it a Rolex? They are not intending to defraud anyone into buying a fake Rolex, but in selling their watch that is what they are unintentionally doing?

I still think that a Casio is not a fake Rolex, even if there are people who don't know the difference, or think that the word "Rolex" is synonymous with the word "watch".



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 12:52:33)

quote:

Anybody is capable of fakeflamenco


Indeed, I believe you have asserted that as "Flamenco is Cante" if there is no cante there is no flamenco, so solo guitar is not flamenco".



Piwin -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 13:16:18)

So, I looked up the definition of flamenco on the the Merriam-Webster online dictionnary.

Definition of flamenco
plural flamencos
1
: a vigorous rhythmic dance style of the Andalusian Gypsies; also : a dance in flamenco style
2
: music or song suitable to accompany a flamenco dance

Those pr*cks put baile first [:D] The Collins is even worse and calls flamenco "dance music". [8|]

I'm proposing my own definition:
flamenco
plural flamenci
1
: Andalusian yodeling, often accompanied by loud clapping of the hands, a person clawing at a guitar and another stomping madly at the floor trying to shove metal nails into the heels of his shoes. Ex: As he walked down the mountain for the night, Ignacio could hear the sad mourn of the flamenco music reverberating in the night.

2
: Anything played on a guitar by a person who speaks Spanish. Ex: Did you see that scene where Antonio Banderas plays flamenco?



kitarist -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 16:47:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

and does the noun: "an object, person, or act that is not genuine; [..]" imply intent or not?


Just looking at the above, I think it is clear that intent is not required, though it might be present.

BTW before we get too deep into dictionary definitions, it is worth pointing out that dictionaries are describing language use, not prescribing it. They are also incomplete (a leftover from when they were paper-based and had to worry about physical size and associated costs), and , as Piwin shows, some entries are really badly written or plain wrong out of ignorance of the subject area - like the flamenco definition.



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 17:09:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Anybody is capable of fakeflamenco[;)]




This was definantly on my mind when making the list for fakemenco...but I personally never considered this stuff "good"...it always sounds weird to me. I guess there are some good things on the album though. Frankly I am surprised it took this long to include it in the list...and more surprised folks are still arguing about the definition of what is obviously or not "fakemenco". [8|]



Morante -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 18:08:24)

quote:


Indeed, I believe you have asserted that as "Flamenco is Cante" if there is no cante there is no flamenco, so solo guitar is not flamenco".


Correct. This is singing, not cante.



Leñador -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 20:32:56)

quote:

Anything played on a guitar by a person who speaks Spanish. Ex: Did you see that scene where Antonio Banderas plays flamenco?

[:D] If I had a nickel for every time someone said "Oh! Did you know Charo is an amazing flamenco player!" i'd probably have around a dollar. [:D]



Dudnote -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 20:42:18)

Curious what you guys think about non-hispanics trying to learn cante and how good they need to get before it's no longer faking it? And how long is a piece of string by the way?

I thought this had some good moments - would like to hear him try again once the letras are completely internalised and after a couple of glasses of sake.



Leñador -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 22:16:48)

I think he’s great! ole! Doesn’t sound fake to me....



Dudnote -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 8 2017 22:55:09)

I'm with you on that. The performance was a little inconsistent - but that could just be the setting. There are definitely some great moments in there. Respect for what he's put into this!

Any ideas on what palo this one was?



Leñador -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 9 2017 1:03:22)

Something in the seguiriya family?



estebanana -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 9 2017 5:02:55)

Flamenco is cante, but guitar solos by guitarists who mainly play cante accompaniment are flamenco. Soloing and not having a grounding and paying dues as a vetted accompanist according to good singers is not flamenco. People who can play scripted solos off old records are guitar players who are good at playing the Spanish guitar, but they are not flamencos. Nope, no way in hell. Period. End discussion.

And Ricardo's mom gets final say. Rule of law by Ricardo's mom.



Echi -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 9 2017 10:31:57)

Are Tierra from Vicente Amigo or Dos parties de mi from Antonio Rey flamenco? Logos from Gerardo? The last albums of Josemi Carmona or Amos Lora? Clearly many guitarists pushed further the way taken by Paco but IMO they ended up playing jazz/fusion music on a flamenco guitar and pouring in their music their background in flamenco.



estebanana -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 9 2017 13:50:07)

Amos Lara is the gayest sh4t I ever heard. Maybe some monastery could get him to play meditation music for ostentatious hipsters.

I've also been working out the Law Of Jazz Chords- Only five 'jazz' chords per toque, and if you break that law, jail. Five root chords that are jazz chords allowed, if you play first inversions, you get three of those, and second inversions you get seven per career. Otherwise any more jazz chords than that and you are in violation of the Jazz Chord Code.

Panty Loosening Chords are allowed, special erotic jazz chords, but you have to take two semesters of Gender Studies classes with a certified Cultural Specialist.

Piwin are you on board with these measures?



Morante -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 9 2017 16:37:08)

Why not just remove the non essential? Flamenco has cante, jaleo, palmas, guitarra and various other even more non essentials.

You can remove everything but cante, and still have flamenco. But, without cante, no other element could survive alone.[;)]



RobJe -> [Deleted] (Dec. 9 2017 16:42:19)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 10 2017 22:02:28



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