Fakemenco, that is good music? (Full Version)

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Njål Bendixen -> Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 7:34:46)

I have just come out of a phase where I listened to only one kind of music: Tango. This phase lasted 15 years! I even became a tango dj doing festivals all over Europe.

I started playing flamenco because my daughter began dancing flamenco, and I became hooked on flamenco. Not like it happened with tango to the exclusion of everything else though. So I am finally becoming openminded about music again!

This leads me to question that may seem peculiar on this foro, but who else can I ask:

It there any fakemenco music out there that is actually good music (even though it may have little to do with real flamenco)?

The one act that I know is Rodrigo and Gabriella. How people can call it flamencoesque I do not understand. I do not hear much flamenco in it. I hear (or feel) heavy metal in it. Which is why I do not like it. It is just too hard for me. They are however great musicians and I am sure that they are really impressive live.

Any suggestions will be welcome and I will listen to all of it.



jalalkun -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 8:00:31)

what about ojos de brujo? they do have some hearably strong flamenco base and presence in a couple of tracks, but they're still on the kitsch side, kind of [:D] would this even be considered "fakemenco"?



Piwin -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 8:30:09)

Paco de Lucia




[:D]


Check out this old thread with a few suggestions on it:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=245622&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=fakemenco



estebanana -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 10:17:48)

quote:

Paco de Lucia


You magnificent truth telling bastard!



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 12:17:30)

quote:

They are however great musicians and I am sure that they are really impressive live.


That's like saying "McDonalds, I just don't get them. However they do have some talented chefs and I am sure they produce an impressive cheese burger".

Fakemenco that is good:

Julian Arcas, Tarrega, segovia arrangements of Albeniz and Granados, Falla, Lorca, Ernesto Lecuona, Rodrigo (Aranjuez not Gabriela's boyfriend), Esteban de Sanlucar, Mario Escudero (Impetu and the like), Paco de lucia (trio work mainly and duets with Mclaughlin specifically), Nunez (pasodoble and the like), Strunz and Farah (Americas, Primal Magic, and lets just stop there), Gipsy Kings and friends from France.



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 13:01:28)

quote:

Fakemenco that is good: Tarrega,


Not sure if I have properly understood the definition of "fakemenco", so wondering - How is Tarrega fakemenco? I didn't think he ever claimed to be flamenco at all. Mazurcas, Valses etc. the odd (Argentine) Tango - as I see it it's only in the mind of people who are entirely ignorant of flamenco and equate classical guitar with Spanish guitar with flamenco. Isn't "fakemenco" more to do with marketing Spanish pop music and/or spanishy sounding music as "flamenco"?



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 13:15:40)

"Fakemenco"= the exploitation, superficial borrowing, or usage of the music and/or aesthetic of the art form called "Flamenco" by otherwise competent artists that don't mind perpetuating confusion to the general music listening public, specifically spanish guitar enthusiasts.

Also thanks for reminding me about that fakemencoer Turina....





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Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 13:47:42)

I totally neglected the entire sub genre of fakemenco, focusing above on classical fusion and guitar stuff, which is of course, jazz fusion fakemenco or "Jazzmenco". Going back to playing cante on Sax with Ramon Montoya, or interpreting Lorca with jazz group (Paco and Iturralde), I guess the seminal time would be MILES DAVIS, with his super popular Sketches of Spain and "Flamenco sketches" which coincided with the first real flamenco fusion CARLOS MONTOYA from Saint Louis to Seville....all very good quality fakemenco IMO. Later you had the Joe Beck fusion with Sabicas and of course Mclaughlin and Dimeola taking inspiration from Miles Davis later did what would become the Trio material, and of course Corea's Touchstone project also with PDL. Modern examples of "Jazzmenco" are almost too numerous to list, but lets leave it at the "Jazzpaña" projects and Tomatito with Camilo.



Morante -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 14:47:45)

"Música buena" depende de su punto de vista. Un cateto, un maleducado, un chulo, un aficionado, un profesional: cada uno puede opinar de una manera diferente de la misma música o la misma comida o el mismo vino. No se puede discutir con una persona de otro nivel de conocimiento o clase.



BarkellWH -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 17:48:03)

quote:

"Fakemenco"= the exploitation, superficial borrowing, or usage of the music and/or aesthetic of the art form called "Flamenco" by otherwise competent artists that don't mind perpetuating confusion to the general music listening public, specifically spanish guitar enthusiasts.


I still don't see how Tarrega can be classified as a practitioner of fakemenco, either as it is defined above or as the sub-genre subsequently defined. His may be a form of classical, or Spanish classical, ("light classical"?), but he doesn't seem to me to be trying to "confuse" the public that his is flamenco. I think Mark Indigo hit the nail on the head that any reference to Tarrega playing fakemenco has to originate in the confused mind of the listener, not with any intention of Tarrega's.

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 18:13:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

"Fakemenco"= the exploitation, superficial borrowing, or usage of the music and/or aesthetic of the art form called "Flamenco" by otherwise competent artists that don't mind perpetuating confusion to the general music listening public, specifically spanish guitar enthusiasts.


I still don't see how Tarrega can be classified as a practitioner of fakemenco, either as it is defined above or as the sub-genre subsequently defined. His may be a form of classical, or Spanish classical, ("light classical"?), but he doesn't seem to me to be trying to "confuse" the public that his is flamenco. I think Mark Indigo hit the nail on the head that any reference to Tarrega playing fakemenco has to originate in the confused mind of the listener, not with any intention of Tarrega's.

Bill


So long as you Tarrega lovers can accept Arcas and Turina etc as fakemencos, I will respectfully remove him from the "good quality fakemenco" list.



Piwin -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 18:16:18)

So is there any difference between fakemenco and fusion or are we just using them as synonyms?
Where would you put these?
-Chicuelo's Qawwali Flamenco
- Pepe Habichuela's Yerbagüena
- Enrique Morente's Omega
and of course the wonderful Otmar Liebert's... kidding, kidding...

@Morante
I think I'm a "aficionado maleducado". Which is a pain because it means that I don't always agree with myself even [8D]



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 13 2017 18:23:12)

quote:

So long as you Tarrega lovers can accept Arcas and Turina etc as fakeme


I'm no great Tarrega lover - I have a respectful and curious interest in other kinds of music alongside flamenco: other Spanish music and other guitar music, classical music, jazz and folk music.

Just trying to understand what this "fakemenco" thing is all about.

I don't know if I've ever heard any music of Arcas, and Turina's music, from what I've heard, is such a long way from flamenco I can't really understand why he chose to title his pieces with soleares, garrotin etc.

As to the Tarrega piece "La Cartagenera" I don't think I've heard it, but it could be just that he labelled it for a lady from Cartagena? And isn't there a Cartagena in South America?



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 14 2017 15:35:59)

quote:

So is there any difference between fakemenco and fusion or are we just using them as synonyms?


I thought fakemenco was something that called itself flamenco, but wasn't.

So Ottmar Liebert "Nouveau Flamenco" definitely very fakemenco,

but Rodrigo Y Gabriela say they are not flamenco, so they can't be fakemenco?

and Tarrega is classical guitar, he wasn't pretending to be flamenco, or using the name as a marketing gimmick, so not fakemenco?

or have I misunderstood?



rombsix -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 14 2017 18:39:38)

quote:

Rodrigo (Aranjuez not Gabriela's boyfriend)


[8D][:D]



Njål Bendixen -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 15 2017 0:30:21)

OK, here is my definition of fakemenco. Different people will have different definitions of course. However, in a scientific sense, it is very important to be objective when trying to classify music.

Fakemenco: The kind of music that people who are not knowledgeable about flamenco consider flamecoesque.

Rodrigo y Gabriella is the perfect example. I actually came to know about them because someone on the foro was complaining that people who don't know flamenco think that Rodrigo y Gabriella is flamenco. Rodrigo y Gabriella themselves say that their main influence is heavy metal, and that flamenco is only a small influence. Still people ignorant of real flamenco (and ignorant of Rodrigo y Gabriella's own view of their own music) think that Rodrigo y Gabriella is flamenco or flamenco related


And thank you Jalal for the Ojos De Brujo tip. This is exactly the kind of music that I was looking for.

I have not had time to look into the other suggestions, but I will in due course.



Njål



Leñador -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 15 2017 1:35:21)

quote:

Fakemenco, that is good music?

[:D] I'm just playing, I love Ben Woods. Good music that isn't flamenco, but kind of is lol



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 15 2017 17:05:08)

quote:

Fakemenco: The kind of music that people who are not knowledgeable about flamenco consider flamecoesque.

so virtually anything could be labelled "fakemenco" regardless of the composer/performer and their own ideas or intentions, if some other ignoranus decides to call it flamenco?

quote:

Rodrigo y Gabriella is the perfect example. I actually came to know about them because someone on the foro was complaining that people who don't know flamenco think that Rodrigo y Gabriella is flamenco. Rodrigo y Gabriella themselves say that their main influence is heavy metal, and that flamenco is only a small influence. Still people ignorant of real flamenco (and ignorant of Rodrigo y Gabriella's own view of their own music) think that Rodrigo y Gabriella is flamenco or flamenco related

if anyone thinks RyG are flamenco they should read the sleevenotes to their first album where they say; "we are not flamenco"



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 15 2017 17:44:34)

When some artist has to put in print that he or she is specifically NOT FLMENCO, then you are quite obviously dealing with fakemenco music. [:D]



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 15 2017 17:54:51)

quote:

When some artist has to put in print that he or she is specifically NOT FLMENCO, then you are quite obviously dealing with fakemenco music.
so if they say they are not flamenco they are fakemenco, and if they don't say they are not flamenco they are fakemenco and if they say they are flamenco but aren't they are fakemenco.... now i'm really confused[&:]



kitarist -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 15 2017 18:14:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
so if they have to say they are not flamenco they are fakemenco, and if they don't say they are not flamenco knowing people wrongly take them as flamenco they are fakemenco and if they say they are flamenco but aren't they are fakemenco.... now i'm really confused[&:]


With the changes above, I think there is no confusion :-)



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 15 2017 18:21:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

When some artist has to put in print that he or she is specifically NOT FLMENCO, then you are quite obviously dealing with fakemenco music.
so if they say they are not flamenco they are fakemenco, and if they don't say they are not flamenco they are fakemenco and if they say they are flamenco but aren't they are fakemenco.... now i'm really confused[&:]


Kitarist got it clear for you but I would add that "if they say they are flamenco but aren't" is the one where you have to realize all aficionados of flamenco draw a line and find themselves on a spectrum. Many say Ottmar is NOT flamenco period, but it is simply false. He plays music that is clearly flamenco (bulerias proper and other tid bits for example) however it is very badly done at student level. I consider that "bad flamenco" not "fakemenco". But I embrace a broad spectrum. Agujeta believed strongly that ONLY HIMSELF was flamenco and the rest have been dead for decades. Very narrow spectrum. [:D]

In regards to fakemenco and fusion....meaning jazz or other music styles mixed with flamenco, I would say all those fusions are a subgenre inside or under umbrella of "fakemenco"....meaning they borrow the music or aesthetic in someway, knowingly changing the pure essence of it but rather than a general thing there will be specifics.



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 15 2017 20:17:33)

quote:

quote:When some artist has to put in print that he or she is specifically NOT FLMENCO, then you are quite obviously dealing with fakemenco music.

quote:

so if they say they are not flamenco they are fakemenco, and if they don't say they are not flamenco they are fakemenco and if they say they are flamenco but aren't they are fakemenco.... now i'm really confused


sorry guys, I really should have put some of these[:D][:D][:D] after the[&:] as I was just trying to make that post as convoluted as possible to highlight the absurdity of "guilty if you say you are innocent" type judgements...
I'm really not that confused...[;)]

I do think though, that labelling non-flamenco Spanish music, classical or otherwise, guitar or otherwise, as "fakemenco" is a bit pointless.
"Not flamenco" does fine for me.



Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 16 2017 11:44:06)

quote:

"Not flamenco" does fine for me


Well, if the OP was "not flamenco that is good music?", then my list would have been substantially longer. [8D]



rayian -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Nov. 29 2017 17:11:07)

This may not be too popular around here. I'm not sure but I'd say that Jesse Cook has put out some good high energy fakemenco though I think he prefers to call it rumba



norumba -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 4:53:01)

what a fascinating and entertaining thread :)

I'll modify Kitarist's modification a little further and break up the categories for clarity:
quote:


so 1. if they have to say they are not flamenco but others still think they are flamenco they are fakemenco, and

2. if they don't say they are not flamenco knowing people wrongly take them as flamenco they are fakemenco and

3. if they say they are flamenco but aren't they are fakemenco....


even with that modification though, im still not sure I would classify #1 as fakemenco. fake to me implies a degree of intentional deceit, and if youre upfront that youre not flamenco, then there really isnt that deceitful element unless industry or media classifies you that way. So i dont think #1 counts as fakemenco .Maybe call it wrongmenco or mislabeledmenco [:D]

#2 is pretty clear, but #3 is a bit of a can of worms, because how do you define what isnt? See the two questions i posit below.

its all subjective at any rate. Everyone has their own definition of it which is interesting to see, and i dont think theres any right or wrong. Even as I think this through to write this post, it gets fuzzy in my own head, lol.

I would agree with Piwin on the PdL classification to a large extent... Ricardo breaks it down differently than i do, as i wouldnt classify all fusion attempts as fakemenco -- but then again a lot of them are. Depends on how theyre presented.

I get that Ottmar can play a proper bulerias but a) his output completely lacks any kind of conviction and heart and b) he did pass all of his s*** off as flamenco, not just the occasional bulerias or tidbit. for those two reasons, id put him squarely in the fakemenco camp, for me.

That raises the philosophical question: if you follow the letter of the law but not the spirit , are you fakemenco? Conversely, if you follow the spirit of the law but not the letter, are you fakemenco? do the three theorems above override these two questions?

personally i think all rumba is fakemenco, but technically thats probably not true, otoh some historians/academics/scholars may agree. But i get that my disdain for rumba is an entirely subjective aesthetic.



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 13:53:35)

if the criteria for "fakemenco" is music that listeners think is flamenco but isn't flamenco you have to include pretty much all classical guitar players and music (people think John Williams and Julian Bream = flamenco guitar [8|]), pretty much all latin/hispanic music (people think salsa, samba, mariachi etc = flamenco [8|]) - I would personally restrict it to anything that calls itself flamenco but isn't.

To be honest I don't really care for or about any of the music included in any of the definitions of so-called "fakemenco" [8D]



BarkellWH -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 15:56:37)

quote:

it's all subjective at any rate. Everyone has their own definition of it which is interesting to see, and i dont think there's any right or wrong.


For what it's worth (the cost of a doughnut and a cup of coffee?), I don't agree with the above-cited quote. If it's "all subjective" and "there's no right or wrong", then musical nihilism reigns. The definition of "flamenco" and therefore "fakemenco" is not just what anyone wants it to be.

There are elements that define flamenco--palos, compas, styles of playing--that set it apart from other genres. That someone might want to suggest that Rodrigo and Gabriela (to use one example) define flamenco does not make it so.

This sort of madness began with "Post-Modern" theory in literature where the text was whatever one subjectively interpreted it to be. It continued with the idea that Western ideas and theories of science were just "Western Constructs," no more valid than the Hottentots' world view in the Kalahari Desert. Followed to its logical extreme, one might as well call Mongolian Throat Singing flamenco.

Bill



Mark2 -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 16:37:54)

Back in the 80's when he broke I found myself onstage with him. We were both part of the audience at a flamenco show. The club owner of course asked the famous guitarist to play, and he obliged. The guitarist who played for the show was an excellent flamenco player, and I was also invited to back up Ottmar. We played his hits, which required me to play two chords in rhythm. At some point the dancers got up and started doing palmas por bulerias. I'd say his playing would likely not be considered "proper" by most aficionados. This WAS a long time ago though, so who knows. I'm no fakemenco snob-I love "proper" rumba and have been guilty of playing it any time people were willing to pay me. Played my share of fakemenco too for sure. Paid a lot of bills....



quote:

ORIGINAL: norumba


I get that Ottmar can play a proper bulerias but a) his output completely lacks any kind of conviction and heart and b) he did pass all of his s*** off as flamenco, not just the occasional bulerias or tidbit. for those two reasons, id put him squarely in the fakemenco camp, for me.

That raises the philosophical question: if you follow the letter of the law but not the spirit , are you fakemenco? Conversely, if you follow the spirit of the law but not the letter, are you fakemenco? do the three theorems above override these two questions?

personally i think all rumba is fakemenco, but technically thats probably not true, otoh some historians/academics/scholars may agree. But i get that my disdain for rumba is an entirely subjective aesthetic.



mark indigo -> RE: Fakemenco, that is good music? (Dec. 1 2017 17:32:37)

I don't think Rumba is fakemenco. It's just rumba.

A fake Rolex watch is an inferior products made to look like the real thing. A Casio watch isn't a fake Rolex, it's a Casio.

Ottmar Liebert calling an album "Nouveau Flamenco" (the only one I've heard) when there isn't any flamenco on it counts as fakemenco in my book.

There is one track on that album that is labelled "(bulerias)" but isn't (it's sort of vaguely in 6's but otherwise I can't see any other link to bulerias). fakemenco



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