Most incredible picado of all times... (Full Version)

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sartorius -> Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 19 2017 10:22:00)

This is the most incredible picado I've ever seen in my whole life!!! It's from 1:12 to 1:36 of the video. And por Fandangos de Huelva. Oléééé




orsonw -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 19 2017 10:53:05)

A better version here (picado starts around 5.40)


This Nino de Pura run been discussed before, try a foro search e.g

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=49427&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=pura%2Cpicado&tmode=&smode=&s=#49427

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=22050&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=pura%2Cpicado



sartorius -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 19 2017 11:09:38)

Even better, that's right [;)]



estebanana -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 19 2017 14:04:51)

I've seen him play that Fandango live. It's impressive.



cantejondo38 -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 19 2017 15:26:58)

Que pinche picado tiene ese guey. De madre es..😀



jshelton5040 -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 19 2017 21:33:56)

How exciting to hear someone do lightning fast scales over and over again. Reminds me of listening to a couple of Manuel Lopez Ramos's students who could do the Segovia major and minor scales with the metronome at 200 (4 notes per beat).

It's not my cup of tea but who am I to criticize such amazing technique.



AlVãl -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 0:39:42)

Awesome indeed...wish i could avatar ilke that. (wonder if any of our female members may prefer a naked Nino humping a negra? ~ there ~ ive done it..cant unsee that in your minds eye :~ )
..picado's also killer ~ seem to remember florian losing sleep with that Picado - or maybe another fandangos de Pura - might try to hunt that thread down [:-]



estebanana -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 5:03:29)

quote:

Awesome indeed...wish i could avatar ilke that. (wonder if any of our female members may prefer a naked Nino humping a negra? ~ there ~ ive done it..cant unsee that in your minds eye :~ )
..picado's also killer ~ seem to remember florian losing sleep with that Picado - or maybe another fandangos de Pura - might try to hunt that thread down


Avatars like that are why we don't have any female members who post. The guitar jocks pissed them all off so it's not worth their time.

Personally, I'mnot in favor of picadosadism, but Nino de Pura is not just another picado drone. He really pulls a tone out of the guitar he's not a mere tickler. His ideas are good and he can accompany. Also his deep tone, thumb work and arpeggio in the context of flamenco guitar slays Segovia or any student of Segovia's that ever lived. Two totally different ways of thinking.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 13:23:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Also his deep tone, thumb work and arpeggio in the context of flamenco guitar slays Segovia or any student of Segovia's that ever lived.

Stephen,
I was referring to the diatonic major and minor scales fingered by Segovia but played by Alphonso Moreno and others who were students of Manuel Lopez Ramos. Segovia was a great master but blazing picado technique was not his forte.



AlVãl -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 13:56:15)

quote:

picadosadism

Or it's neighbouring affliction Sadpicadoism
Nothing like a explosive ..
Line in a Fandangos or an Alegria - like the final flare in a falseta - just makes the world a better place
But there's many many other things to get excited about with flamenco guitar - sometimes it's kinda hidden - behind or responding to the cante

I have one Nina de Puro album - great playing and all but kind of a bit of a cheese platter of a disc ... Like hearing him in the above setting
Yet to check out his DVD



estebanana -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 15:08:26)

quote:

Stephen,
I was referring to the diatonic major and minor scales fingered by Segovia but played by Alphonso Moreno and others who were students of Manuel Lopez Ramos. Segovia was a great master but blazing picado technique was not his forte.


Oh fiddlesticks Abel Carlevaros scales are better than AS's, but of course we all get AS's shoved at us.

Most of the time I don't like Sadopicado, or also know as Picadosadistic behavior, but Nino de Pura is a gutty player. All I'm saying



estebanana -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 15:18:37)

quote:

Or it's neighbouring affliction Sadpicadoism
Nothing like a explosive ..
Line in a Fandangos or an Alegria - like the final flare in a falseta - just makes the world a better place
But there's many many other things to get excited about with flamenco guitar - sometimes it's kinda hidden - behind or responding to the cante

I have one Nina de Puro album - great playing and all but kind of a bit of a cheese platter of a disc ... Like hearing him in the above setting
Yet to check out his DVD


I generally am turn off by sadpicadoistic virtuososomasichism, but I saw Nino de Pura once play a fandango solo and he ripped off this whole copla of picado in the most tasteful way and sustained the whole copla with a singers line of picado. Of course this is a cheap tawdry parlour trick pulled off by a player with bionic technique, but when we walked outside after the show we said what the hell just happened? It was really cool actually and he had the audacity to do it despite the cheese factor. Would I rather hear Antonio Moya play solea por bulerias for singer, of course, but I like some showbiz once in a while too.



Morante -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 16:05:23)

quote:

I saw Nino de Pura once play a fandango solo and he ripped off this whole copla of picado in the most tasteful way


The best flamenco grupo I have ever seen was Panseco y Aurora Vergas al cante, Daniel al toque and Bobete y El Eléctrico a palmas.

El Niño played in totally different formas for Panseco, who is a serious cantaor, then for Aurora, who is festera, when he put the público de pie with his picado when Aurora was resting between coplas. He is a real master and when all of them played only palmas, he was at the same level of compás as the maestros.

And he produced Aurora´s CD.

Niño de Puro is one of the greats.

I understand that he changed to Condes only when his beloved Barba was wrecked in an accident[:@]



sartorius -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 18:58:57)

A wrecked guitar is just an opportunity to buy a new one. Same with cars...



FERREREZAKI -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 20 2017 20:05:48)

Have you ever heard of Paco de Lucía? Niño de Pura is great, but he's got nothing on Paco!



estebanana -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 21 2017 2:18:17)

quote:

The best flamenco grupo I have ever seen was Panseco y Aurora Vergas al cante, Daniel al toque and Bobete y El Eléctrico a palmas.


I would listen to a herd of elephants taking a collective crap if Bobote y El Electrico were playing palmas for them.



Dudnote -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 21 2017 3:00:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
I would listen to a herd of elephants taking a collective crap if Bobote y El Electrico were playing palmas for them.

Ah, but would you listen to Bobote y El Electrico taking a collective crap if a heard of elephants were playing palmas for them?

Here they are in action - no elephants - but plenty of duende none the less....



estebanana -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 21 2017 3:50:30)

If El Electrico and Bobote had a cuadro called Groupo Poopo I would attend the show, so Yes.



Piwin -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 21 2017 4:13:24)

I'm pretty sure they already poop in compas. Maybe even do contratiempo.



chester -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 21 2017 4:28:41)

That's Manuel Molina on the guitar, and you can see Lole standing behind him to the right.

Nice find Dudnote!



Ricardo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 21 2017 15:29:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FERREREZAKI

Have you ever heard of Paco de Lucía? Niño de Pura is great, but he's got nothing on Paco!


Niño de Pura is generation 1 of the Paqueros (disciples of Paco) along with Tomatito, Gerardo Nuñez, Rafael Riqueni, Manolo Franco, Cañizares, etc. I would admit his picado to be best of all of them, but there is that concert with Banderas and Cañizares that is pretty hard to beat. As a composer his music never grabbed me despite his skill, compared to some of the others. I agree his work with Aurora Vargas was fantastic and exemplary, highly recommend. Along with Nunez with Indio Gitano I feel both Niño and Gerardo to be underrated as accompanists due to lack of a large body of work there, and coupled with their monster technique they spearhead the "virtuoso" genre that flamenco aficionados love to hate. Tomatito was lucky to be chosen by Camaron and later ALL the Camaroneros (duquende potito etc etc) but my opinion that the best of all that "generation 1 paqueros" was Manolo Franco, if you ever got to see him accompany a singer live. Great charisma and support for the singer on stage. IMO (talking about accompaniment). Along side of these guys we have Moraito that everybody loves, who technically IS a paquero IMO, but retains that old school jerez connection and pretty much blue printed "perfect" accompaniment for all time with his HUGE body of work with singers, thus avoiding that bad "virtuoso" category the rest get lumped into.

After that we have our generation 2 paqueros so to speak beginning with vicente amigo who really stole the show after dealing both great solo virtuoso material and innovative cante accompaniment recordings (Pele, Remedios Amaya, Jose Merce etc) pushing the movement forward toward the present. We notice picado speed often takes a backseat to rhythmic sophistication with this generation. I personally gravitate my tastes toward the generation 1 style more but there are a couple modern players I really like such as Antonio Rey, Jesus del Rosario, Diego del Morao, etc.

Ricardo



Piwin -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 21 2017 15:49:52)

Interesting. Any chance you could expand a bit on this:

quote:

Moraito that everybody loves, who technically IS a paquero IMO


That connection never really occured to me before. I always just thought "Jerez".



Ricardo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 22 2017 10:14:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

Interesting. Any chance you could expand a bit on this:

quote:

Moraito that everybody loves, who technically IS a paquero IMO


That connection never really occured to me before. I always just thought "Jerez".


Ok, well, it's a pretty big can of worms. Lets just look at buleria, what he is famous for and what many consider "jerez style". First of all Jerez style goes back to Javier Molina and follows into toque by Manuel Morao, Parrilla, Cepero, and later via maestro Aguila to Nuñez and others of modern era. Bulerias was always pretty quick and driving with the way the falsetas went. Moraito retains some of that but generally slowed things down so he could better express the contra tiempos and backbeat phrasing that (IMO) was introduced by PDL. In other words I hear Moraito playing more in the style of Punta del Faro, than Manuel Morao. Also there is that two foot tapping thing PDL used to do all the time that he adopted unlike majority of players. To see some concrete examples of falsetas and phrasing, consider this single performance:
A (1:59), B (2:09), C (5:53), D (7:58) for example:


And the sources:
A (1:57), B (2:04)


C (2:57), much faster of course lol!



D (0:25), again, much faster


Have fun with those, there is lots more but hopefully my point is made.

Ricardo



Mark2 -> [Deleted] (Mar. 22 2017 22:33:01)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 22 2017 22:38:38



Mark2 -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 22 2017 22:38:00)

In El Tempul at :25 it looks like i down, i up, and a down. Faucher has it i down, a up( I presume-he doesn't specify) and i up. Comments? It's super hard for me to get either at a decent tempo.

Great observations Ricardo. I never caught these things he took from Paco before.



kitarist -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 22 2017 22:45:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

In El Tempul at :25, it looks like i down, i up and a down. Faucher has it i down, a up( I presume- he doesn't specify), and i up. Comments? It's super hard to bring it to a decent speed either way for me.


I think it starts with i down (together with golpe with a). Then you have 5 sets of the usual triplet rasgueado i up, a down, i down. Then this whole sequence repeats 2 more times. (this is 0:25 - 0:29 described).



Ricardo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 22 2017 23:29:16)

Well, what happens is "a" comes up necessarily to prepare immediately after the golpes, ALONG with i up. So one can argue about which finger, a or i is making the significant string contact when going super fast. What would be important regarding Faucher's transcription is whether or not the VERY NEXT stroke is "a" DOWN followed by i down....which is how it has to be in order to achieve the sequence to end on the last i down stroke. For me it's best to think about as i down i up a down, repeat doing golpes every other time if you can. The main challenge is the golpe along with i down AFTER "a" finger plays, as he does on the record. In this video he doesn't do that, only golpes on the start of each phrase.

Moraito and Tomatito do this thing reversed, i up on the beat, flicking i down from thumb, and NO GOLPES. Perhaps that is how Faucher wrote it as well???

EDIT:I was just reminded about this arguement years back before this Paco vid existed. I end up doing just like PDL at :33 here, and show the slow version at 4:00, which is how I thought he did it on the record with more golpes. Only difference is I bend and flick from my thumb, which I now consider wrong or not necessary:




kitarist -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 23 2017 1:50:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
For me it's best to think about as i down i up a down, repeat doing golpes every other time if you can. The main challenge is the golpe along with i down AFTER "a" finger plays, as he does on the record. In this video he doesn't do that, only golpes on the start of each phrase.


Thanks - I actually got this :-) So you are saying it is the same sequence of strokes, but one can think of them grouped differently - also with the option of golpe-ing with a on any i-down - like you do in your video.

I.e. to think of it as :
( i down, i up, a down), ( i down, i up, a down),... where the first stroke in each triplet can be along with golpe with a, compared to
i down, ( i up, a down, i down), ( i up, a down, i down),... as I described it , where only the very first i down outside the parentheses is done together with golpe with a , as in the PdL El Tempul video .

BTW thank you very much, Ricardo, for your explanations and knowledge-sharing here and in other threads - I am learning a lot.



estebanana -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 23 2017 3:01:56)

Ricardo, Nice breakdown on how Moraito is 'modern'. Also his use of space and rests, is modern. He plays contratiempo but he also uses space in a way that relies on palmas to carry the rests which occur in the middle of a phrase or melodic line. His placement is not like Morao.



Ricardo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 23 2017 15:00:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
For me it's best to think about as i down i up a down, repeat doing golpes every other time if you can. The main challenge is the golpe along with i down AFTER "a" finger plays, as he does on the record. In this video he doesn't do that, only golpes on the start of each phrase.


Thanks - I actually got this :-) So you are saying it is the same sequence of strokes, but one can think of them grouped differently - also with the option of golpe-ing with a on any i-down - like you do in your video.

I.e. to think of it as :
( i down, i up, a down), ( i down, i up, a down),... where the first stroke in each triplet can be along with golpe with a, compared to
i down, ( i up, a down, i down), ( i up, a down, i down),... as I described it , where only the very first i down outside the parentheses is done together with golpe with a , as in the PdL El Tempul video .

BTW thank you very much, Ricardo, for your explanations and knowledge-sharing here and in other threads - I am learning a lot.


Yes you got it.



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