RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Full Version)

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Mark2 -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 23 2017 15:14:18)

Not sure cause he only indicates fingers(i,a,i,) not the direction. But my guess is you are correct in that he means i up, a down, i down. No golpes.
You could do the golpes with the other interpretation -i down, a up, i up. From the vid though I think he did it like you did. -i down, i up, a down.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo



Moraito and Tomatito do this thing reversed, i up on the beat, flicking i down from thumb, and NO GOLPES. Perhaps that is how Faucher wrote it as well???




mark indigo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 23 2017 18:14:16)

quote:

quote:

Moraito that everybody loves, who technically IS a paquero IMO


That connection never really occured to me before. I always just thought "Jerez".


I read an interview with Moraíto back in the 90's where he said he was "school of Paco de Lucía". It was published in an article in a guitar mag (Acoustic Guitar maybe) along with an interview with Manolo Sanlúcar talking about the changes in Spain and flamenco in his lifetime.



Filip -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 24 2017 22:40:22)

quote:

I would admit his picado to be best of all of them, but there is that concert with Banderas and Cañizares that is pretty hard to beat.

To which concert exactly you refer to?



JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 24 2017 22:43:25)

quote:

To which concert exactly you refer to?
This one:



Filip -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 25 2017 15:35:50)

Ah, so it's the DVD one!
Thanks.



mark74 -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 26 2017 4:23:52)

That picado was pretty freaking amazing. Id love to hear him shred por rumba



Piwin -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 27 2017 22:24:16)

Thanks for that.
The connection does seem pretty obvious in those videos.



mark indigo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 27 2017 23:44:53)

quote:

Moraito ..... pretty much blue printed "perfect" accompaniment for all time with his HUGE body of work with singers....
that would make a REALLY interesting (and maybe impossible) discography. I have loads of recordings of Moraíto with singers, but probably only scratched the surface of what's out there.



Dudnote -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 28 2017 2:17:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL mark indigo

quote:

Moraito ..... pretty much blue printed "perfect" accompaniment for all time with his HUGE body of work with singers....
that would make a REALLY interesting (and maybe impossible) discography. I have loads of recordings of Moraíto with singers, but probably only scratched the surface of what's out there.

It would be an awesome thread! Which are your favourites?



Leñador -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 28 2017 2:25:13)

quote:

It would be an awesome thread! Which are your favourites?

Yeah this should happen, we should start this....



Ricardo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 28 2017 5:53:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL mark indigo

quote:

Moraito ..... pretty much blue printed "perfect" accompaniment for all time with his HUGE body of work with singers....
that would make a REALLY interesting (and maybe impossible) discography. I have loads of recordings of Moraíto with singers, but probably only scratched the surface of what's out there.

It would be an awesome thread! Which are your favourites?


El Angel documentary
Flamenco (movie), buleria w/ jerezanos and solea with jose merce.
Terremoto jr
Luis el Zambo
Jose merce
Macanita
3 jerez families por buleria
Gazillian cameo appearances where the singer have multiple guitarists.
Jesus Mendez
Etc



mark indigo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 28 2017 12:27:23)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL mark indigo

quote:

Moraito ..... pretty much blue printed "perfect" accompaniment for all time with his HUGE body of work with singers....
that would make a REALLY interesting (and maybe impossible) discography. I have loads of recordings of Moraíto with singers, but probably only scratched the surface of what's out there.

It would be an awesome thread! Which are your favourites?

Well.... there are maybe 4 categories: albums where he is sole or main guitarist; albums where he guests on a track or two; official videos like the Carlos Saura films, Agujetas Cantaor or Jose Merce Puro y Jondo; and live "bootleg" vids on YouTube.

The first two are kind of fuzzy. On Macanita's "con el Alma" he is sort of main guitarist but with Parrilla de Jerez on some tracks either with or instead (not completely sure, need to listen to it again). Torta's Colores Morenos and Luna Mora he is sole guitarist i think. On Mujerez he accompanies Juana la del Pipa and Macanita, but her son accompanies Dolores, except on the bulerias where they play together.... There are loads and loads and loads of these albums.

And there are the "Gazillian cameo appearances where the singer have multiple guitarists." too, of course.

Only yesterday i found a couple of tracks [on YouTube] of Moraito and Torta from an album i had never heard of. Torta's wiki page showed it was his first album, but it looked like it was only released on cassette!

EDIT: and there's another Torta album listed as "descatalogado" on elflamencovive.com that's not mentioned on the wiki page.

I bought as many as i could then afford of the Auvidis Ethnic Flamenco Vivo CD's when they were coming out in the 90's (Macanita, Torta, Ines Bacan etc.) and since picked up some [that i missed or had previously taped from friends] on Amazon (Fernando de la Morena, Fernando Terremoto, Barrullo etc.). Moraito's solo album "Morao y Oro" was on that label, and he seems to have been practically the house guitarist for them.



mark indigo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 28 2017 12:39:15)

quote:

El Angel documentary

what's that? I don't think i've heard of it.

I know this one "EL CANTE BUENO DUELE"




Ricardo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 28 2017 17:46:56)

This:



Morante -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Mar. 28 2017 18:34:45)

Carnaval de Cadiz



Homenaje a Paco de Lucía




Filip -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 3 2017 19:07:15)

Guys, do you have any idea of how many notes per second was in the fastest picado you ever heard (in flamenco) ?
Also, if it happens to be on YT I would appreciate if you would share the video ;)

I'm thinking about La Barrosa ending in Light and Shade, or about improvisation with McLaughlin from the same documentary, but no clue about the number of notes.

Cheers



Piwin -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 3 2017 19:11:54)

The fastest had to be that hilarious Ruben Diaz video where he thought no one would notice he had sped up the video [:D]
That thing was comedy gold.



Filip -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 3 2017 20:26:05)

Are you serious? I had no idea, could you send me a pm with a link please!!!??? I need to see this



Piwin -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 3 2017 20:48:09)

Wish I could but he deleted a long time ago and no one seems to have copied it [:(]
But yeah if anyone knows where to find it, I'd love to see that thing again too!



Escribano -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 3 2017 21:40:17)

quote:

Wish I could but he deleted a long time ago and no one seems to have copied it
But yeah if anyone knows where to find it, I'd love to see that thing again too!


He is definitely not welcome here, nor any mention of him, thanks.



rombsix -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 3 2017 22:57:04)

quote:

He is definitely not welcome here, nor any mention of him, thanks.


[:D][8D]



Piwin -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 4 2017 6:34:38)

Fair enough. No harm intended.



sartorius -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 4 2017 6:59:33)

Hilarious man and completely foolish!!! Banned I hope...



Piwin -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 4 2017 7:57:18)

On a sidenote, though this doesn't answer your question on the fastest picado out there, I've been reading some books on psychoacoustics and the sections on speed are pretty interesting.
If the interval between each note is under 100ms, it starts getting pretty difficult for the human ear to distinguish each note. The notes start blurring pretty quickly if you drop that interval below the 100ms mark. If you reach 50ms, which I'm not even is humanly possible, though probably somewhere close to the limit, then it starts getting really confused. Under 20ms you've entered the realm where rythm starts being perceived as pitch. Basically, as I understand it, around 50ms your mind can get pretty confused as to whether it's hearing rythm or pitch.
A picado run with an interval under 100ms (so 10 notes per second) doesn't seem all that uncommon. Some of the guitarists here can probably manage that. But once you start going any faster, then the way you compose your picado run will determine whether it's perceived as a melodic line or just a blur. Basically the idea would be that you have to find a way to make certain notes stick out so that the ears can hang out to a musical Relationship between two notes that are further than 100ms apart. If none of the notes stick out, than you're stuck with that 100ms interval and you can't really process it as single separate notes.
Another factor seems to be how long it takes for the instrument to produce sound. The longer it takes the produce the sound, then the more blurry a fast run will sound. A 100ms-interval picado run will still sound like there are distinct notes in there, but do the same thing on a pipe organ and it's just a blur.



Ricardo -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 4 2017 15:08:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Filip

Guys, do you have any idea of how many notes per second was in the fastest picado you ever heard (in flamenco) ?
Also, if it happens to be on YT I would appreciate if you would share the video ;)

I'm thinking about La Barrosa ending in Light and Shade, or about improvisation with McLaughlin from the same documentary, but no clue about the number of notes.

Cheers



Tight and controlled, on Caña de Azucar jose maria banderas does a run of 8's at 117 bpm that the other two players did not attempt.
There is the "Rumba" by Cerreduela, basically paco's Rio Ancho, taken at 120 bpm or so and he does a run there that would be 16 notes per second. Todd and grisha both argued against my claim, so we need some one to slow it down for us. Finally Paco Cepero, pushes the tempo way up but it's not metronome tight, but I am thinking he is up around 120 or so on the fast run. PDL fastest I heard was on Chanela solo on Solo quiero caminar.

Ricardo



estebanana -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 4 2017 15:14:31)

I see this has officially turned into a Penis Extension thread.



Piwin -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 4 2017 15:49:24)

I can play sixteenth notes at 258bpm. Unfortunately my camera is broken so I can't upload an example.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 4 2017 19:23:50)

quote:


Have you ever heard of Paco de Lucía? Niño de Pura is great, but he's got nothing on Paco!


I agree, of course. When I was in Moron de la Frontera, Sevilla, in 1970, Paco was on the TV in Casa Pepe playing more picado than I ever heard him do again. I wish I knew how to find a copy of a video of it. He was playing long passages of fast picado in a slower toque, maybe tarantas or mineras. It had a lot of feeling and was beautiful and interesting. Niño de Pura's passages on this thread are very fast but lack those other qualities.



Filip -> RE: Most incredible picado of all times... (Apr. 6 2017 22:08:41)

Thanks a lot guys.
The psychoacoustics sounds quit interesting!

Cheers



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