RE: surface

RE: surface (Full Version)

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Echi -> RE: surface (Jan. 22 2017 22:27:27)
Stephen, I tend to agree on schellac, with the exception of the old Conde and Ramirez which IMHO are just right as they are, no matter the cultural reasons that brought to that result. For years I found the headstock of the telecaster just b*tt ugly till I realised that this is the way it must be the headstock if you want a telecaster guitar. A certain feature is part of the history a that product. Re: the orange finish, I think everything started with Josè Ramirez, when he had to make acceptable the look of his new guitars with cedar top. The new orange look was just perfect for the purpose. Add to this that this was the guitar of Segovia, a man highly esteemed, who worked to raise up the cultural status of the guitar at the level of the bowed instruments in the orchestra. From that moment on, orange was highly requested. Many new orange guitars are often terrible though. I agree.

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 22 2017 22:47:44)
The head stock on a Tele is like a shriveled penis. I prefer the hard on phallic symbol the Strat. Rock out with your cock out.

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 22 2017 22:56:29)
You guys realize I'm just waiting to catch a plane, I have nothing better to do but be a smart ass.

constructordeguitarras -> RE: surface (Jan. 22 2017 23:00:03)
In that case I'll mention that I was thinking about the fact that Donald Trump is considered to be orange.

jshelton5040 -> RE: surface (Jan. 22 2017 23:52:01)
Stephen, Since we're discussing orange guitars. What do you think of this one? https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=shelton%20farretta%20guitars#

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 23 2017 1:10:12)
That looks like natural wood with bit of lacquer or shellac on it. But that could be my monitor.

Richard Jernigan -> RE: surface (Jan. 23 2017 2:58:16)
quote: ORIGINAL: estebanana I've always felt that the reason orange became fashionable is because it was done in mimicry of the old Italian and German etc. varnish work on violins. And the purpose was to lend the guitar an air of legitimacy by making a reference to the golden ages of violin making. Here's my '67 Ramirez 1a cedar/cypress flamenca. I would call it "orange," though it's not the fireplug orange of Conde. As far as I know it's the first cedar top guitar I saw, but I didn't really know the difference when my wife gave it to me new. The sheet of paper is for color reference. If it's not white on your screen, you're not seeing the true colors. Most of the cedar that I saw in Ramirez guitars, both classical and flamenco, was notably darker than cypress. I never asked Jose III, but my assumption was the flamencos were stained to make the contrast less obvious. I say "stained" because if you look at the rosette, you will notice a spot where it looks like the stain was missed. I don't remember any orange Condes from the late '60 to early '70s. A friend had a '73 spruce media luna that was much more blond than the Ramirez, though I recollect it not being perfectly white when it was new. I alway assumed the fireplug orange of the later Condes was an effort to trademark the instruments. From the back row you could see that color, even if you couldn't make out the shape of the headstock. RNJ Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 23 2017 6:15:08)
That is a pretty color, I would call it golden honey brown. It makes sense that the Jose III would try to match up the backs to the cedar tops, but it's odd to me. Wood is a certain color. I understand that many makers like the idea of uniformity of tone on the different colors of wood, but that never made sense to me. Cypress is so inherently beautiful that I don't like to "tart it up" as Anna my sculpture teacher have said. Color is a very personal thing, I do love the brown, gold, honey, amber etc. if it is done with sensitivity. I lso like the natural oxidation color under a very dark blond shellac. Recently I warmed up a blond dark shellac with a gold tinged garnet shellac and it was pretty. I painted that on Hinoki, beautiful. The honey colors and golds without harsh red are really very pleasing. I still have difficulty with the reddy oranges because they remind me of cheap violins, or because golds and honey tones is more rich than high chroma oranges, but like I said color is personal.

Echi -> RE: surface (Jan. 23 2017 7:31:22)
Richard, That is a lovely color (and a lovely looking guitar btw). In Spain they call it "oro viejo".

Joan Maher -> RE: surface (Jan. 23 2017 8:22:51)
quote: ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan quote: ORIGINAL: estebanana I've always felt that the reason orange became fashionable is because it was done in mimicry of the old Italian and German etc. varnish work on violins. And the purpose was to lend the guitar an air of legitimacy by making a reference to the golden ages of violin making. Here's my '67 Ramirez 1a cedar/cypress flamenca. I would call it "orange," though it's not the fireplug orange of Conde. As far as I know it's the first cedar top guitar I saw, but I didn't really know the difference when my wife gave it to me new. The sheet of paper is for color reference. If it's not white on your screen, you're not seeing the true colors. Most of the cedar that I saw in Ramirez guitars, both classical and flamenco, was notably darker than cypress. I never asked Jose III, but my assumption was the flamencos were stained to make the contrast less obvious. I say "stained" because if you look at the rosette, you will notice a spot where it looks like the stain was missed. I don't remember any orange Condes from the late '60 to early '70s. A friend had a '73 spruce media luna that was much more blond than the Ramirez, though I recollect it not being perfectly white when it was new. I alway assumed the fireplug orange of the later Condes was an effort to trademark the instruments. From the back row you could see that color, even if you couldn't make out the shape of the headstock. RNJ No for me that's a an aged Cedar top - very nice. Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Joan Maher -> RE: surface (Jan. 23 2017 8:26:42)
I really do hate orange... Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Richard Jernigan -> RE: surface (Jan. 23 2017 17:42:15)
I'll take the blame to reverting to a change of subject: quote: ORIGINAL: estebanana Are you seriously trying to to convince me that sushi in the US is superior to sushi in Japan or are you just shaking my chain? I mean, I've lived in Japan going on 4 years now and I'm pretty certain that the sushi in Japan is better in general, save for the Japan trained cutters in the US who really know how to do it. During a brief two weeks in Japan we concluded that the sushi was almost always much better than in the USA, except for one or two places in California, where it was about as good, but not better. There's a place in Honolulu on King Street, a few blocks west of Kalakaua that's good. The most expensive place in New York City prepared the stuff well, but some of the fish was borderline the one time we ate there. I say "borderline" by Japanese standards, it would have been seen as perfectly okay almost anywhere in the USA. It seemed to us a big part of the difference was not just preparation, but also the general availability of good fresh fish. I still have fond memories of getting up early, taking a taxi across Tokyo to see the tuna auction at the Tsukiji Fish Market, then strolling down an adjacent street and choosing at random a place to go into and have sushi for breakfast. During a couple of weeks after Japan we had some good sushi in Palau. The place was run by Japanese people, the fish was fresh. -------------- In French business meetings (at least the ones I was in, back in the day) at about 10 AM there's a break. Croissants, and coffee with a 10,000 volt caffeine charge were brought in. At meetings at the French Embassy in Washington, DC the custom was honored as well. During some meetings the refreshments were supervised by the Ambassador's administrative assistant. At one meeting someone commented that the croissants were delicious, and asked where she got them. She supplied the name of the bakery, and said, "I think their croissants are as good as those in Paris." The Ambassador had stopped by for a courtesy call during the break. To his assistant's comment about the croissants he joked, "That's how we know when it's time to send them back home." She had said she was looking forward to a transfer back to Paris in a month's time. RNJ

pundi64 -> RE: surface (Jan. 23 2017 22:23:08)
quote: ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras In that case I'll mention that I was thinking about the fact that Donald Trump is considered to be orange. Not in my BOOK< I voted for him, but I know that has gone already way above your head as to why.

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 24 2017 8:44:53)
quote: Not in my BOOK< I voted for him, but I know that has gone already way above your head as to why. Que lastima. La Naranja de la gran Mentira

Piwin -> RE: surface (Jan. 24 2017 9:54:50)
quote: "That's how we know when it's time to send them back home." That sounds about right. I've noticed that I've started finding Spanish bread edible. Not good, not by a long shot, but edible. The day you hear me say that Spanish bread tastes good, it'll be time for me to go back home!

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 24 2017 10:06:38)
I tried to buy fish in Oakland and SF. I found several fish counters with what would be thought of as non edible rotted fish by Japan standards. And an American chef would have balked as well. Tokyo Fish Market was closed Jan.4th when I was engaged in cooking a big Japanese dinner for friends. I manged to find acceptable sardines. Not good or great, but passable. Tokyo Fish is good...but unless you are around fresh fish you can't have anything to compare it with. One big mistake I saw over and over was meat counters with fish, and butchers who did not know that fish is not beef. I saw counter after counter with week old badly handled fish..Yuck. The sourdough bread was excellent.

jshelton5040 -> RE: surface (Jan. 24 2017 23:44:00)
quote: ORIGINAL: estebanana I tried to buy fish in Oakland and SF. I found several fish counters with what would be thought of as non edible rotted fish by Japan standards. And an American chef would have balked as well. Tokyo Fish Market was closed Jan.4th when I was engaged in cooking a big Japanese dinner for friends. I manged to find acceptable sardines. Not good or great, but passable. Tokyo Fish is good...but unless you are around fresh fish you can't have anything to compare it with. Well I certainly can't fault this statement. I can always tell when I'm within 30 feet of the fish market at our local S@feway store since the aroma is overpowering. Fortunately there are boats bringing in fresh fish about 40 miles from us who are happy to sell to us at very reasonable prices and there is a fish market (about 60 miles away) called Newman's that has excellent fish. I have very little experience with sushi on the mainland in Japan only Okinawa and the sushi places I frequent near here are superior. By the way, the link I sent you shows a very orange Shelton-Farretta guitar if you scroll down a bit. As far as doing whatever the customer wants. We are all trying survive in this world and we'll do whatever it takes to keep making guitars, there are however certain things we will not do! For instance, we had several requests years ago to build pinto guitars which were in vogue for awhile....you know, those horrible looking guitars with rosewood and cypress panels on the back and sides. I refuse to build an abomination like that. Hope your jet lag is not too overpowering. Enjoy Japan and the lovely Japanese people!

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 25 2017 6:38:05)
quote: Not in my BOOK< I voted for him, but I know that has gone already way above your head as to why. This is actually worth a better rejoinder- That you say it has "gone already way above your head" is a pretty dickheaded thing to say. In the flamenco community world wide you'll find strong women committed to the art form, top pros to the most humble of students trying to learn. One thing the vast majority of the flamenco women have in common is a dislike of sexism, racism, bigotry and permissive attitude towards sexual violence that Donald Trump will not disavow. The same anti-semitism, and permissions to white nationalist hate and the bigotry, and sexism he used to manipulate people and to belittle his opponent. He used sexism and bigotry to lull a base of voters to elect him by a narrow margin- and he emotionally charged the crowds with hateful epithets such as 'Lock her up" and "She's a nasty woman." The vast majority of flamenco women are self identified as "nasty women" either through straight up saying we're nasty, or by association in support of resistance to Trump's blatant sexism and permission to sexually assault women. It might be a good idea to check where you are before you tell others that Trump's sexist schtick and shuck and jive bullshiit went over a flamencos head. I suggest you get with some high level female flamenco dancers and tell them the reason you voted for that clown and get their reactions. Tell them your reasoning goes over their heads. Pretty certain you'll be the focus of a "teachable moment".

pundi64 -> RE: surface (Jan. 25 2017 20:06:43)
quote: ORIGINAL: estebanana quote: Not in my BOOK< I voted for him, but I know that has gone already way above your head as to why. Que lastima. La Naranja de la gran Mentira Por Que' Ha h ha, ok so why did 57% of American women vote for him? You sound off just like the news papers that wrote fake news, Blah, Blah Blah, Deal with it, he won !!! Lets get back to the topic of this thread ok ? Not talking Politics BS. I'm sure more people in here want to hear about "SURFACE" topic, ONLY !!!! OK AMIGO- Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Piwin -> RE: surface (Jan. 25 2017 21:21:12)
I'm not sure where you get your numbers from but I just checked the Pew Research numbers and according to them "women supported Clinton over Trump by 54% to 42%", which is in line with a long-term trend where the majority of women in the US have tended to vote democrat (since the early 90s I think?). Is it possible you were thinking "white women" or some other subset and not just women in general? I don't have the figures for the former so maybe that could be it. Anyways that's neither here nor there. More importantly, I think you missed the gist of estebanana's point, at least the way I understand it. To put it bluntly, if you barge into a flamenco tablao, at least here in Spain, boasting about your defense of Trump, there's a distinct chance you'll end up in a fist fight with a gipsy woman twice your size. So political debates aside, I'd take it just as a word of caution... But that's all the hijacking of this thread I'll do since I really have nothing smart to say about "surface", though it has been an interesting read, rants 'n all. Maybe further discussion could be pursued in the "divise ignorance" thread or another off-topic thread that is politically-oriented?

pundi64 -> RE: surface (Jan. 25 2017 21:46:08)
quote: ORIGINAL: Piwin I'm not sure where you get your numbers from but I just checked the Pew Research numbers and according to them "women supported Clinton over Trump by 54% to 42%", which is in line with a long-term trend where the majority of women in the US have tended to vote democrat (since the early 90s I think?). Is it possible you were thinking "white women" or some other subset and not just women in general? I don't have the figures for the former so maybe that could be it. Anyways that's neither here nor there. More importantly, I think you missed the gist of estebanana's point, at least the way I understand it. To put it bluntly, if you barge into a flamenco tablao, at least here in Spain, boasting about your defense of Trump, there's a distinct chance you'll end up in a fist fight with a gipsy woman twice your size. So political debates aside, I'd take it just as a word of caution... But that's all the hijacking of this thread I'll do since I really have nothing smart to say about "surface", though it has been an interesting read, rants 'n all. Maybe further discussion could be pursued in the "divise ignorance" thread or another off-topic thread that is politically-oriented? Your %'s must have been printed out by CNN, NBC, CBS, or another partial paper for the Dem's, Look man he is President I'll tell you the same thing, just DEAL WITH IT! estebanna loves to insight arguments in the forum, now you are chiming in to continue it further, Like I said lets keep it on the right topic, but I know you just had to say something.

Tom Blackshear -> RE: surface (Jan. 25 2017 21:50:53)
quote: Tell them your reasoning goes over their heads. Why not give this a rest? I played 17 years for dancers and I can tell you that they come from all political make-ups, so be fair with this mood swing of yours and be happy again. You come from a west coast crowd that is decidedly liberal but they don't hold the cultural norm of the US anymore than certain parts of Spain would. So let's talk about the great guitars you make.

pundi64 -> RE: surface (Jan. 25 2017 23:09:57)
quote: ORIGINAL: estebanana quote: Not in my BOOK< I voted for him, but I know that has gone already way above your head as to why. This is actually worth a better rejoinder- That you say it has "gone already way above your head" is a pretty dickheaded thing to say. In the flamenco community world wide you'll find strong women committed to the art form, top pros to the most humble of students trying to learn. One thing the vast majority of the flamenco women have in common is a dislike of sexism, racism, bigotry and permissive attitude towards sexual violence that Donald Trump will not disavow. The same anti-semitism, and permissions to white nationalist hate and the bigotry, and sexism he used to manipulate people and to belittle his opponent. He used sexism and bigotry to lull a base of voters to elect him by a narrow margin- and he emotionally charged the crowds with hateful epithets such as 'Lock her up" and "She's a nasty woman." The vast majority of flamenco women are self identified as "nasty women" either through straight up saying we're nasty, or by association in support of resistance to Trump's blatant sexism and permission to sexually assault women. It might be a good idea to check where you are before you tell others that Trump's sexist schtick and shuck and jive bullshiit went over a flamencos head. I suggest you get with some high level female flamenco dancers and tell them the reason you voted for that clown and get their reactions. Tell them your reasoning goes over their heads. Pretty certain you'll be the focus of a "teachable moment". OH and by the way calling someone a dickhead, is a direct personal, finger pointer, but I will not join you in this kind of name calling, since you are too dense to understand. Maybe the mediator of this forum might call you on it, calling someone a DICKHEAD, but then again he's probably your good friend, and will just it pass, unnoticed.

Joan Maher -> [Deleted] (Jan. 26 2017 10:06:09)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 26 2017 16:17:30 Reason for deletion: Off-topic and I agree that it is offensive.

Echi -> RE: surface (Jan. 26 2017 10:28:23)
I'm not American and didn't support any of the 2 candidates. That said, let your president work if you are democratic and judge the guy at the end of his mandate. If you think it will be too late, then try with the revolution but please, do it in the proper way and places. It's really boring to read everywhere about Trump's hair, and what he said to an idiot some years ago or Melania's dress....

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 26 2017 10:43:11)
quote: OH and by the way calling someone a dickhead, is a direct personal, finger pointer, but I will not join you in this kind of name calling, since you are too dense to understand. Maybe the mediator of this forum might call you on it, calling someone a DICKHEAD, but then again he's probably your good friend, and will just it pass, unnoticed. Hey, the only thing Ethan did was point out that Trump is orange complected. Nothing more. Then you attacked him and put him down by saying you voted for DJT and that the reasons why are "over our heads". You have thin skin. At least you vote for people who are like you. Being consistent is important. I still think you should run your mouth in front of some high level flamenco dancers and see what happens to you. But I wager you don't have the chops to play for the big girls. Sad. Show us a You Tube video of you playing good accompaniment for some seasoned pro dancers and singers. I doubt you even know a single high level dancer, let alone have the skill to play at their level.

estebanana -> RE: surface (Jan. 26 2017 10:55:11)
quote: Why not give this a rest? I played 17 years for dancers and I can tell you that they come from all political make-ups, so be fair with this mood swing of yours and be happy again. You come from a west coast crowd that is decidedly liberal but they don't hold the cultural norm of the US anymore than certain parts of Spain would. So let's talk about the great guitars you make. Sorry Tom, I do respect you and your opinions, but this is not the moment in history to rest, and this is not a "mood swing". I have friends in San Antonio who are African American and they are not feeling good about the state of the nation, nor am I. Most metropolitan areas of the country are the cultural norm and the norm now is more like SF. As for guitars and guitar making, I make an effort to elucidate the points I see as important, and I contribute heartily to discussions with substantive material for people to think about. Odd times require odd responses.

Joan Maher -> RE: surface (Jan. 26 2017 10:57:43)
Time to move back to Orange Condes which I am not crazy about.. lets park the politics.

Ricardo -> RE: surface (Jan. 26 2017 11:16:42)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joan Maher Time to move back to Orange Condes which I am not crazy about.. lets park the politics. I still forget, are the dreaded modern orange condes and such Nitrocellulose lacquer, or is the catalyzed poly, or something else?

Echi -> RE: surface (Jan. 26 2017 11:46:49)
Felipe V Condes from 1990 forth should be varnished with 2 components catalysed polyurethane. I guess it's the same for old Gravinas from the end of the eighties as the varnishing and the all production should have been outsourced. The guitars from Gravina shop of the seventies and eighties were definetely sprayed with nitro varnish and as a matter of fact they used to have a very translucent orange colour. Edit: 1) There is a debate on what is the best synthetic varnish for musical instruments with good points on both sides. The major consent is that a thin finish works better, whatever the finish. Nitro has many esteemers particularly in the electric lutherie branch, even though is said it can be unstable in the long term. 2) the extra-long 3D on Conde sais close to nothing on technical aspects, building features, varnishes, and doensn't make any substantiated explanation of the difference between a Conde made in the '60 or '70 or ' 80 or '90ies.

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