RE: Keeping the pulse (Full Version)

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Piwin -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 16:26:14)

I particularly like the song "About a tree", though I guess it doesn't have it's place in this thread because it's very simple rhythmically speaking.
The way he jazzed up traditional Sephardic songs is really impressive and, like you said, very tasteful.

The drummer's badge of honor when I was studying percussion back in the day was to manage to play through Frank Zappa's black page. It's just one of those examples that you can achieve incredible rhythmic complexity with a simple time signature.



In music other than jazz and metal, there are quite a few Japanese bands that have gone down the rabbit-hole of rhythmic complexity, from zeuhl bands (which are perfect for when your guests have overstayed their welcome and you just don't know how to get them to leave [:D])






To be honest though, all of these modern forays into compound time signatures and polyrhythms kind of depress me. They're really just a reminder that there's nothing new under the sun. And I still hold to the belief that the elasticity of a sung seguirya is 100 times more complex than these 72/73 and 103/root of pi. But that's just me. I still enjoy it!



kitarist -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 16:33:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sim999

quote:

It's a 3-bar cycle with 2 bars in 4/4 and the last one in 7/16. Writing it out in 39/16 wouldn't make all that much sense.


I'm agree with that 2 bars of 4/4 and then one bar of 7/16.

quote:

Not sure where you get that. It is a 4/4, then 6/4, and repeat.
This is is not correct.

From a comment on youtube I think the guy is correct :
For Vardavar It is 4/4. The sixteenth notes are grouped 5535545. For a portion of the song, the bars are broken down harmonically into 553 then 5545, which makes it feel like the next bar is starting earlier then it actually is.


Well I did wonder if they cut the last bit by 1/16 but ultimately it seemed like it is just an apparent, but not actual, thing; as the commenter says "makes it feel like the next bar is starting earlier then it actually is". BTW me saying 4/4 + 6/4 is equivalent to 4/4 for two bars and then another 2/4 - or as others hear it minus 1/16, the last part becomes as if it is 7/16 long rather than 8/16 (i.e. 2/4).



Piwin -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 16:42:56)

I think what creates that sensation is that the last note of the melody is syncopated, it's a 16th-note away from the beat. And at that speed it's hard to make out (I'm still working on Pdl's buleria [:D]). If you have time to write it out, I guarantee that it's 7/16 (last group of notes is 5 notes starting on the off beat).



sim999 -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 16:51:57)

quote:

BTW me saying 4/4 + 6/4 is equivalent to 4/4 for two bars and then another 2/4 - or as others hear it minus 1/16


Agree, just a 1/16 different but still it has its importance :) Love the zappa video, I'm a big fan of Franck he was an amazing musician !

quote:


I particularly like the song "About a tree"


I also like this track, most of the things that Avishai has done are great.

quote:


To be honest though, all of these modern forays into compound time signatures and polyrhythms kind of depress me. They're really just a reminder that there's nothing new under the sun. And I still hold to the belief that the elasticity of a sung seguirya is 100 times more complex than these 72/73 and 103/root of pi.


Humm sure there is lot of bad music based on "weird" rythms which are indeed not so complex and most of the time there is nothing more to it. However guys are like Avishai, Dhafer, Tigran or Zappa are / were incredible musicians ; they made really great compositions that happen to have some interesting rythms. It's always done with taste, I will put these kind of guys next to paco or gerardo nunez in there fields which mean at the top :) and these guys do have insane chops.



Piwin -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 17:08:31)

Yeah I didn't mean to belittle those artists. Not at all. I was speaking more about the videos I posted after (I don't consider Zappa to be "modern". I'm getting old ;-)). The zeuhl bands are knock-offs of 70s avant-garde music (Magma) and the last one, though it's nice to hear some compound time signatures in mainstream music, they've really done nothing different than 80s progressive rock except dress less extravagantly. But I sometimes do get a sense that, even with the best of them, it's kind of like atonal music in the early 1900s: an attempt to add something new to music when there's no where left to go. Avishai is heavily influenced by Sephardic music and Trigran by Armenian folk. As far as melody is concerned, they really haven't added much. And the weird thing is that they play over the rhythmic complexity so well that you don't always notice it..so I guess I'm just wondering what the point is...In 10 years the next best thing will be to play in 4/4. And in 20 years to play in 1756/23 and back to 4/4. But don't worry, I'm just in one of those moods. Tomorrow I'll be saying that Avishai is the next best thing after the invention of the wheel [;)]
Speaking of putting them next to Paco, you should look up the footage of the not-yet-bald Avishai playing with Paco (he played double-bass for Chick Corea back in the day).



sim999 -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 17:22:44)

Yeah I know the footage when Avishai with Chick :) Like you said the style of "hey look I can do complicate stuff, you play in 4/4 you're must be an "has-been"" is in vogue today, it will past and come back... I agree on that. Sure Tigran or Avishai did not invent water, but hey all great contemporary flamenco players : they really haven't added much too but some of them I like :) What is important is to pay attention and sometimes you discover a jewel (for me it was abu nawas rhapsody by dhafer in 2010).

In metal maybe you know Animals as leaders : everyone one was like oh my god these guys are insane when they became popular. But in reality they did not invent anything new, but to the "common metal" listener this stuff is new and all, it's in fashion. I Like a few songs myself but give me an "An justice for all by Metallica or a "Rust in peace" by Megadeth (where the guys have half the "physical" skill compare to new shredders) anyway of the week.



Piwin -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 17:48:53)

Yeah you're completely right. I'm just in one of those phases where I scratch almost everything I write because I invariably realize I jacked it off someone else. Of course, even when you don't realize it, you're still doing it... so goes it. But phases pass, so I'll be singing another tune soon! unless the Bartleby syndrom gets the best of me of course...



kitarist -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 18:34:06)

You are right - the last bit, after the two 4/4 bars, is 7/16 long, before they loop the same musical phrase again. Initially I thought they are playing the musical theme the second time offset by 1/16, til it gets reconciled by the end of that second 4+6 (4+4+2); but apparently no, they just play the theme again.



Ricardo -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 20:13:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

You are right - the last bit, after the two 4/4 bars, is 7/16 long, before they loop the same musical phrase again. Initially I thought they are playing the musical theme the second time offset by 1/16, til it gets reconciled by the end of that second 4+6 (4+4+2); but apparently no, they just play the theme again.


It's called "Odd elegy", I first went to 5's to check the feel and it worked for me at first, didn't listen all the way through. Like you I felt the last 16th accented leading the down beat of the repeat. I am usually skeptical about odd bar phrases as the basis for metric feel. In this case I don't sense the two down beats of 4 in the phrase, nor the down beat of 7/16 being played off of or around or otherwise expressed. Of course the math works. Two bars of 5/4 just feels better to me, with the last beat losing a 16th.

In reality, I would just have a single 10 beat bar with the division on the last beat 3 16ths, the rest grouped or beamed in 4's. (39/16). Another clean version would be 9/4 + a bar of 3/16. I think that is how they feel it, no 4/4 phrases as bar lines are all getting crossed IMO.



kitarist -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 20:42:01)

Yes I agree two 4/4 (plus 7/16) does not actually convey what the rhythmic feel of it is. In fact the last little bit (5 notes of the melody) are done as if it is a 5/16 in its usual rhythmic division of 2 accents in a 2+3 pulse, i.e. a short and a long 'syllable'. Then I tried to think of how the rest before it could be a combination of some 7/16 (as in a 2-2-3 pattern) and some 5/16 (2-3), to more accurately reflect the rhythmic feel of it, but haven't figured it out yet. Will try to listen to it again later.



sim999 -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 21:15:00)

quote:

9/4 + a bar of 3/16


I agree with that, I feel it that way. I love this tune :p

What about Dreaming by avishai ? anyone has a suggestion regarding the pulse ? I find it a bit more difficult to find this one



kitarist -> [Deleted] (Aug. 4 2016 22:02:59)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 4 2016 23:26:44



Ricardo -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 22:07:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sim999

quote:

9/4 + a bar of 3/16


I agree with that, I feel it that way. I love this tune :p

What about Dreaming by avishai ? anyone has a suggestion regarding the pulse ? I find it a bit more difficult to find this one



Dreaming is 13/16, but a specific pattern of accents or "clave". The way I drum it is right hand dominant accents:

RR L R L R L r L R L r L repeat.....all L and small r's are soft groove, the R's are accents. Most fun to practice and easy to hear during bass solo.

Or say: TATA doo TAka TAka dimi TAka joona....



sim999 -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 22:41:21)

Thanks for the reply Ricardo, I can hear it now 13/8 would be maybe more "correct".

This one has a funny metronome in it :) wan two three four, wan two three four fy see XD



Love the grooves around 20s, 1min and 1min35 and 2min55.



kitarist -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 4 2016 23:28:42)

yup. I missed a 1/8 again. I now see Avishai himself lists it as 13/8 so it's not a 7/8 repeated..



Ricardo -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 5 2016 7:01:18)

quote:

Thanks for the reply Ricardo, I can hear it now 13/8 would be maybe more "correct".


Well, I have a little pet peeve about defining the quarter note at anything above 200bpm. In this case, my metronome only does quarter note to 240, so this tune is maxing out the 8th note groove. I prefer to think of em as 16ths. Perhaps on paper I might like to see it beamed as 3+2/16, then a 2/4.

(Yes that's right, Buleria palmas I prefer to think of as 8th notes not quarters like solea).

Considering it's a pretty incessant groove, I would teach it as:
1 2 3,1 2,1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, repeat.

A proper 13/8 (in family line with it's other odd relatives) I would think of as either:

1&2&3&4&5&6&ah, repeat, or
1&ah2&3&4&5&6& repeat. More similar to what we have but still a bit different accent.



Piwin -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 5 2016 10:41:51)

Since we're talking about UFOs in the off-topic



I never bothered to work this one out but I suspect the overall fluidity of the piece is misleading and writing it out would be a pain in the *ss (hence I never bothered [:D])



Ricardo -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 5 2016 21:40:05)

Piano is:
2/4
7/4
17/8 or 4/4+9/8
17/8 or 4/4+9/8
13/8
Repeat

Could work out as 7 bars of 4/4 with a 9/8 in there somewhere to make a nice square 8 bar sequence.



kitarist -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 5 2016 23:33:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sim999

Great discussion we have here, we need more members joining the discussion ! Let's discuss about other tunes by Avishai Cohen who is a master of tastefull rythms



BTW, thanks for the Avishai Cohen stuff - new to me and very interesting. FWIW, here is a 2011 thesis/dissertation titled "Aspects of rhythm in the music and improvisation in six pieces by bassist Avishai Cohen" - by Nicholas Abbey (link to free download at the link).



Piwin -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 6 2016 21:27:20)

quote:

2/4 7/4 17/8 or 4/4+9/8 17/8 or 4/4+9/8 13/8


Yikes. I listen to Sufjan basically as background music. Should probably pay attention more since apparently there's a lot of work going into it...

@kitarist.
Thanks for the link.



JasonM -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Aug. 10 2016 15:14:58)

Sim: I mostly agree with you on Al di Meola. I have never been a fan of his albums, and I tried to sit through a solo concert of his about 10-15 years ago with a jazz buddy of mine. And we lasted a respectfully 75%. I remember he would stop playing periodically during a song just to make some random comment like he was stoned. It killed any vibe he had finally going. After an hour technical delay (battery died in his acoustic) the audience kept screaming "PRS" and he stopped mid way and started with the MIDI s***.

That said, I still like some of his lines a lot and he is a great guitar player.



sissoko -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 1 2016 18:39:12)

Here's a band that a worked a lot on rythm



And still, when their leader fabrizio cassol tried to work with paco, he backed off because he couldn't follow THAT complexity.

I also think flamenco is way more difficult than what most western jazz players do.



El Kiko -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 1 2016 20:03:32)

but you dont need a lot of stuff to have a good beat .. or complicated anything , just what you already have inside you ..
and a bit of street rubbish that no one else wants ...




Piwin -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 1 2016 20:40:01)

quote:

And still, when their leader fabrizio cassol tried to work with paco, he backed off because he couldn't follow THAT complexity. I also think flamenco is way more difficult than what most western jazz players do.


I seriously doubt an accomplished jazz musician walked away from a partnership with flamenco artists because he thought the rhythms were too complex... Sounds like one of those stories people tell to show off how their style is more difficult than others, etc.

It doesn't really make much sense to say that this or that is harder. It's always (or should be) about musicality. Notice this is precisely the complaint a lot of people have about the younger generation of flamenco players, that they've lost themselves so much in rhythmic complexity that it's basically just noodling around and not much music. It just comes down to individual artists. What tigran is doing in jazz is both complex and musical. What Nunez is doing in flamenco is both complex and musical.

This is sort of a pet peeve of mine. I've seen quite a few people show up from abroad here wanting to learn flamenco guitar and it seems it's customary to say that the reason you're taking up flamenco is because of its complexity and then move on to rail against anything in 4/4. If you're doing it for the complexity, first you're deluding yourself into thinking it's more complex than it really is and secondly you're missing the whole point of what flamenco is about (general "you", not you specifically [;)] )



pundi64 -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 1 2016 21:18:04)

Wow this is all very interesting but at 3:30 am, with only one cup of coffee down, it is way over my head,
I've saved this thread, to come back to, a bit later when my brain and body are working in sync.



sissoko -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 1 2016 22:15:11)

Piwin I feel you... Aka Moon IS exactly the kind of band of jazz musicians looking for complexity and strange rythms (and their drummer is the kind of guy that'll play 5 with the left foot and 7 with the other), and they thought it'd be nice to approach flamenco but they were thrown by a kind of complexity that was new for them.

I used to like weird stuff when I was younger but flamenco for me is not only something more complex, it's something more musical, and I'm really into cante.

But yeah I think fandango is way more complex than a 11/8 rythm that has nothing to say itself



Piwin -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 1 2016 22:38:37)

quote:

But yeah I think fandango is way more complex than a 11/8 rythm that has nothing to say itself


Yeah, I think I mentioned it somewhere in this thread but I get the impression that usually pieces with very complicated compound rhythms are pretty much boxed in, i.e. they stick to the metronome. That tends to be true with some palos as well. What is the most difficult for me is the elasticity of some palos, like seguiryas. It's probably the one I have the most trouble accompanying. Free palos I can do. Relatively stable ones too. But this thing that's in the middle, and some singers really stretch the time structure with seguiryas, it's just hard to get in to it and feel it right. I end up playing always a bit late or just starring intently at the singer throughout the whole thing because my only reference is the cante.



sim999 -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 2 2016 14:14:08)

quote:


And still, when their leader fabrizio cassol tried to work with paco, he backed off because he couldn't follow THAT complexity. I also think flamenco is way more difficult than what most western jazz players do.


I agree with Piwin here, check the stuff I posted previously and the work by Tigran Hamsyan or Avishai cohen. These guys have an insane level, they could easily understand any complex flamenco rhythm and improvise on these. Jazz has also evolved you know. Any drummers that worked with tigran, avishai or Brad mehldau like Mark Giuliana, Arthur Hnatek, Daniel Dorn, or the tabla player zakir hussain would have no problems with flamenco rhythms at all.



Ricardo -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 2 2016 17:59:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sim999

quote:


And still, when their leader fabrizio cassol tried to work with paco, he backed off because he couldn't follow THAT complexity. I also think flamenco is way more difficult than what most western jazz players do.


I agree with Piwin here, check the stuff I posted previously and the work by Tigran Hamsyan or Avishai cohen. These guys have an insane level, they could easily understand any complex flamenco rhythm and improvise on these. Jazz has also evolved you know. Any drummers that worked with tigran, avishai or Brad mehldau like Mark Giuliana, Arthur Hnatek, Daniel Dorn, or the tabla player zakir hussain would have no problems with flamenco rhythms at all.


It's not always about a "math" problem, in that sense flamenco is relatively simple math and groove. It's the phrasing that is part of the flamenco language that is learned via the dance and cante accompaniment that is odd. I give for example Chiquito by PDL...it is quite clear that when the musicians he makes fusions with do their improvisations, not the worked out melodies (Anda Jaleo), they don't really feel the same phrase as Paco. Basically what it comes down to is this: those musicians mentioned above and Zakir Hussein and including the Jazz guys like McLaughlin, all have the same phrasing concept regardless of meter....to lead to the down beat. Flamenco is quite different as we rematar early, but not always, and somehow only flamenco people get this at first. I honestly don't think McLaughlin understands the "down beat" Paco is feeling when they play Chiquito, and the math works out anyway but I find it amusing.



sim999 -> RE: Keeping the pulse (Oct. 2 2016 19:25:26)

Totally agree with Ricardo regarding the phrasing of "the meter" and the way people close. However to say "flamenco is way more difficult than what most western jazz players do" is just plain wrong. End of story.

True again regarding McLaughlin or even Chick Corea when he tried to plays "bulerias". But hey it's normal regarding their background. It's not that they can't do it, that' like to ask Paco to play in tigran's band or avishai band or improvising over crazy changes. He will not have all the "codes" doesn't matter that is PDL or not, he does not have the same background and that what is also great about music. It is the same way when paco improvised in the trio, his phrasing is different from a "jazz" player.

Your comparison is on point regarding "Chiquito" too. If you take the McLaughlin perspective on the tune "Florianapolis", harmonically not rythmically paco is all over the place.



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