RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Full Version)

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Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 9 2016 0:39:51)

Yeah that video right there got me into cante. It's from the rito y geographia series. You should really check all of them out if you haven't yet. Best series of videos ever.
http://www.flamencoexperience.com/blog/?p=1334

It was actually El Turroneros voice that got me into it, now I'm obsessed with Camaron so I watch it with changed eyes and ears.



BarkellWH -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 9 2016 1:49:39)

I would have forsaken all the performances I've seen over the years of Paco Pena, Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, Canizares, and others for one evening of being with those guys in that video. To me, that's real flamenco the way it should be enjoyed. None of the polished, programmed performance one sees on a stage while sitting in an auditorium. And I would be sitting there with a copita of jerez fino in front of me, just like Turronero. For one evening, I could even put up with all the smoke from their incessant smoking. No polish, no "fusion." Just straight up flamenco.

Bill



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 9 2016 2:54:06)

I'm with you, that's a moment I would kill to have been a part of.



estebanana -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 9 2016 11:36:14)

I'll tell you I really dislike smoking or being around it,but there are a few people who I know who smoke who I make an exception for because they are exceptional people who happen to smoke. It makes me sick to breathe because I have asthma, but if I have my Abuterol inhaler and the flamenco is good, ok I will put myself through that. Japan is behind the curve on designating smoking areas or creating all out bans in public, but I deal with it.

Someday I hope flamenco has an anti fuma generation that want to disassociate music from smoking. Nothing great about it for me, but I really hate to be a person who steps on the personal liberties and pleasures of others so I accept that some of my friends like to smoke or are for the time being stuck with smoking.

One thing that really did upset me was to see the son of a famous guitarist who died of a smoking related cancer at an after show party smoking a big cigar. I thought boy you are a great guitarist too don't smoke yourself to death like you papa did.

His daddy would have lived another 30 years and been here with us had it not been for the smoking.



BarkellWH -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 9 2016 13:42:35)

quote:

I'll tell you I really dislike smoking or being around it,but there are a few people who I know who smoke who I make an exception for because they are exceptional people who happen to smoke.


I'm with you on smoking, Stephen. I have never taken up smoking, even as a teenager. Nothing to do with morality or anything else, other than it just did not appeal to me, and I did not like the taste when I tried it a couple of times. But I would put up with others smoking if they were special friends. And I certainly would have put up with the smoke to have been able to sit in on the session caught in the video of Camaron, Turronero, Paco Cepero and Paco de Lucia. Still, I do not understand the lure of smoking with its proven connection to lung cancer and other diseases. Seems to me to be a pretty risky activity, but individuals have a right to their pleasure, even when it involves risk.

Bill



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 9 2016 13:45:30)

I don't know if it's because of its abundance or maybe because it DOESNT get you high but smoking is the HARDEST thing to quit. I've been quit for 3 years but lately been puffing a few more cigars and hookah than I should. Gotta stop that ****. When your a real smoker it runs you, your nearly powerless, it's a weird feeling when you realize how bad it's got you.



Brendan -> [Deleted] (Apr. 9 2016 14:30:42)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 9 2016 14:32:12



Richard Jernigan -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 10 2016 4:13:55)

I started smoking when I was 16, to be a cool guy in high school and with the older musicians I hung with. Maybe 4 or 5 cigarettes per day until I was 28. Then I got my first 8 hours/day desk job, solving math and physics problems that nobody else in the company could, except for my boss and one of my pals. Spent a lot of time staring at the ceiling thinking, "OK, that didn't work, now what do I try next?" Cigarette consumption shot up to a pack a day. Made me feel bad, so I quit.

But my sweet and pretty young wife smoked. Saturday morning over a second cup of coffee, I would reach for one of hers. Before long I would be back at it.

Finally I asked her if she would quit for me. In an amazing act of generosity, she did.

Years later we were driving down the street when she said, "Do you know what day today is?"

Crap, what have I done now? "Um, no, can't say that I do."

"It's been ten years since I had a cigarette."

"And you still want one?"

"Yes."

I bought her a dozen roses and took her out to a nice dinner.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 10 2016 4:57:12)

You're such a gentleman Richard.



gerundino63 -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 10 2016 7:08:57)

And your wife a gentlewoman[;)] lovely couple.....



DavRom -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 10 2016 12:16:29)

the accompaniment in this video is tops! great ebb and flow with the singers. the best guitarists punctuate phrase endings just right to flow out of and into the next phrase (or into a falseta)

The Rito series is so well done. The documentary style used fits the genre like a glove. if i was studying such things it would be at the top of my list

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador




BarkellWH -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 10 2016 12:34:14)

quote:

the accompaniment in this video is tops! great ebb and flow with the singers. the best guitarists punctuate phrase endings just right to flow out of and into the next phrase (or into a falseta)


Well put, DavRom. As I mentioned in my post above, I think Paco Cepero is as fine an accompanist as they come. And yet I think he is under-rated. No one brings up his name (except perhaps me, and now you) when we speak of very good tocaors and accompanists. Particularly his earlier play is first-rate. As I mentioned in the same post, I also think Ramon de Algeciras is under-rated. His play is also first-rate. But he played in the shadow of his brother Paco de Lucia.

Bill



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 10 2016 12:42:24)

quote:

the accompaniment in this video is tops! great ebb and flow with the singers. the best guitarists punctuate phrase endings just right to flow out of and into the next phrase (or into a falseta)

I think a big part of it is look how much fun he's having. He's enjoying there performance and just right there with them.



BarkellWH -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 10 2016 15:06:28)

quote:

I think a big part of it is look how much fun he's having. He's enjoying there performance and just right there with them.


Agreed, Lenny. The combination of first-rate flamenco and the fun they are all having around a cafe table creates a synergy that can't be replicated in a formal performance venue. I must have viewed that video a hundred times over the years, and every time it makes me think how much is missed in performances in an auditorium. I feel like I have spent my life attending flamenco performances while strapped into the seat of an A-300 Airbus.

Bill



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 10 2016 15:49:29)

quote:

every time it makes me think how much is missed in performances in an auditorium. I feel like I have spent my life attending flamenco performances while strapped into the seat of an A-300 Airbus.

Definitely! I get that sometimes it has to be that way because the artist is very famous but it's not really flamencos home. Last night I went to see some flamenco friends perform in a small cafe and it was great. There was a moment when it was just Jose Tanaka and Briseyda Zarate just jamming bulerias and it was magic. She sounded like La Macanita to me. I got to yell and bang on the table, it was great, the grin on my face was a mile long. Flamenco is an intimate art, best heard intimately.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 11 2016 5:41:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH


Well put, DavRom. As I mentioned in my post above, I think Paco Cepero is as fine an accompanist as they come. And yet I think he is under-rated. No one brings up his name (except perhaps me, and now you) when we speak of very good tocaors and accompanists. Particularly his earlier play is first-rate. As I mentioned in the same post, I also think Ramon de Algeciras is under-rated. His play is also first-rate. But he played in the shadow of his brother Paco de Lucia.

Bill


Cepero is the heir to a long tradition in Jerez. He is among the last students of Javier Molina (1868-1956). Javier, his brother the dancer Antonio Molina and Antonio Chacon all grew up together in the Barrio Santiago. They went on a walking tour of nearby provinces in 1885, supporting themselves by performing in bars and taverns along the way. Later Javier worked in Sevilla, Extremadura and Madrid. He worked with the near-legendary figures Patiño and Paco Lucena.

Javier Molina owned a tablao that employed both Niño Ricardo and Manolo de Huelva. These two can be heard in recordings playing the same falsetas, but each with his individual style.

Molina taught the Morao brothers Manuel Moreno (known both as Moraíto and Manuel Morao) and Juan Moreno (known as Moraíto Chico), the father of the recently deceased Moraíto Chico II.

So Cepero was off to a good start on the excellence he has so brilliantly displayed.

RNJ



Ricardo -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 11 2016 13:39:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

the accompaniment in this video is tops! great ebb and flow with the singers. the best guitarists punctuate phrase endings just right to flow out of and into the next phrase (or into a falseta)


Well put, DavRom. As I mentioned in my post above, I think Paco Cepero is as fine an accompanist as they come. And yet I think he is under-rated. No one brings up his name (except perhaps me, and now you) when we speak of very good tocaors and accompanists. Particularly his earlier play is first-rate. As I mentioned in the same post, I also think Ramon de Algeciras is under-rated. His play is also first-rate. But he played in the shadow of his brother Paco de Lucia.

Bill


We have discussed Cepero tons in the past. Remember this one?
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=219705&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=cepero



Richard Jernigan -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 11 2016 23:58:11)

Found some documentation for a story about Manolo Sanlucar I remembered:

http://tinyurl.com/gwmk7yr

"Nació y creció en un ambiente flamenco, ya que su padre fue un gran aficionado a la guitarra, hasta el punto de que buscó como maestro a uno de los guitarristas más importantes de aquella época, como lo fue Javier Molina. "Afortunadamente, esa fue la decisión que marcaría su vida y la de sus hijos", dice el propio Manolo Sanlúcar en sus memorias.

Las enseñanzas recibidas por Isidro Muñoz, padre de Manolo, le habían obligado a desplazarse en bicicleta cada día de clase desde Sanlúcar a Jerez de la Frontera, ciudad donde residía el maestro Javier Molina.

El joven Manolo Muñoz recibió de su padre toda la sabiduría guitarrística que éste había asimilado durante las clases recibidas en Jerez. Mirando hacia atrás en el tiempo, el actual Manolo Sanlúcar considera las clases con su padre "un tipo de enseñanza seria y rigurosa que aún hoy me sirve como ejemplo a seguir". Y fue un ejemplo que fructificó espléndidamente en el joven "Sanlúcar", ya que desde muy pequeño mostró hallarse extraordinariamente dotado para seguir la senda marcada por el padre."

Manolo's father was a guitarist as well. He took lessons from Javier Molina, going daily from Sanlucar de Barrameda to Jerez on his bicycle. (25 or 30 km, much of it up hill--but you could coast a bit on the way back.)

Manolo's father Isidro Muñoz was his main teacher. Manolo was working professionally with Pepe Marchena before he was 14 years old.

RNJ



BarkellWH -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 12 2016 11:27:05)

quote:

We have discussed Cepero tons in the past. Remember this one?


Actually, I had forgotten it, Ricardo. In spite of the derogatory nature of the thread's title ("Cepero Elevator Music"), there were quite a few comments (including yours and mine!) praising Paco Cepero's playing. He's always good, but I really like his earlier playing better than some of his later stuff. Nevertheless, a few years ago he came out with a CD entitled "Morrongo," in which he accompanied the old cantaor (and blacksmith by trade) Santiago Donday to great effect.

Overall, Paco Cepero probably will never be counted among the very top tocaors (PDL, Sabicas, etc.) but I don't think he can be topped as an accompanist. He probably will take his place, as Somerset Maugham once described his place among authors, as "not in the very top tier, but in the very first row of the second tier." Not a bad accomplishment for a fine artist.

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 12 2016 16:49:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

We have discussed Cepero tons in the past. Remember this one?


Actually, I had forgotten it, Ricardo. In spite of the derogatory nature of the thread's title ("Cepero Elevator Music"), there were quite a few comments (including yours and mine!) praising Paco Cepero's playing. He's always good, but I really like his earlier playing better than some of his later stuff. Nevertheless, a few years ago he came out with a CD entitled "Morrongo," in which he accompanied the old cantaor (and blacksmith by trade) Santiago Donday to great effect.

Overall, Paco Cepero probably will never be counted among the very top tocaors (PDL, Sabicas, etc.) but I don't think he can be topped as an accompanist. He probably will be take his place, as Somerset Maugham once described his place among authors, as "not in the very top tier, but in the very first row of the second tier." Not a bad accomplishment for a fine artist.

Bill


Again, I must point out at least I gave my opinion that the guy was not only the best accompanist but also had the fastest picado I have clocked:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

I thought Juan Manuel Canizares was very good at improvising judging from his videos with Paco and Bandera. You can see Paco looking at him with admiration at times during his solos. I only saw him give that look when he played with McLaughlin.


I think Cañizares inspired Paco because of his modern approach. After all I personally never got into his sound or style. When he plays with Paco it's very nice harmonies and such, but when they improvise I feel he doesn't keep up with Paco or Banderas interms of control of tone and speed. He often bends notes but they are always sharp pitchwise...as coming from electric school I think it is a lot nicer to fret a flat note and bend into a chord tone or whatever, but even still it sounds kindof silly on nylon.

I often forget about THIS guy's ridiculous speed on picados, mainly because in my mind he is the ultimate cante accompanist. A little crazy control wise but the expression and speed he always had was amazing. I clock him at 117-120 plus with these picados:

http://youtu.be/lO3BRotMufY

in case you all want to argue again that he isn't making 32nd notes ([;)]) here is a slower groovy version you can hear it more clearly how fast he is going on those same runs at 102 or so:

http://youtu.be/3b2uDrB9ggk



orsonw -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 13 2016 9:34:25)

quote:

And yet I think he is under-rated. No one brings up his name (except perhaps me, and now you) when we speak of very good tocaors and accompanists.


In the flamenco world Paco Cepero is generally considered very highly. The foro is not that representative because of the solo guitar focus. Even so Paco Cepero is mentioned on the foro often, by many people, he's often being highly rated. Try a search on his name, you may find some other discussions that interest you.



Escribano -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 13 2016 10:07:07)

And so he is...

http://www.foroflamenco.com/searchpro.asp?topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=10&language=single&phrase=Paco+Cepero



BarkellWH -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 13 2016 11:39:27)

Thanks Simon and Orson (and Ricardo above) for reminding me that there have been some good discussions on the Foro paying homage to Paco Cepero's fine playing and accompaniment. In reviewing them, I find that I even contributed to some of them. I guess there has been so much praise for PDL, Vicente Amigo, Tomatito, and others over the years that I tend to think Paco Cepero has been under-rated. I still think he may be under-rated by many, but it is good to be reminded that there are many who consider him a first-rate tocaor and accompanist.

Bill



Piwin -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 14 2016 16:24:41)

quote:

I guess there has been so much praise for PDL, Vicente Amigo, Tomatito, and others over the years that I tend to think Paco Cepero has been under-rated. I still think he may be under-rated by many, but it is good to be reminded that there are many who consider him a first-rate tocaor and accompanist.


Add me to the list of P. Cepero fans. Though to be honest I discovered him fairly late in the game. IMO, he simply didn't reach the same level of fame as some of the others you mentioned. Though I'm not sure fame and how you are "rated" as an artist necessarily go hand in hand. There often seems to be a disconnect between the two. There may be other factors that explain his being less known.
And perhaps there is that "solo guitar" distortion that leads some to forget about those who excel at accompaniment. Another example that comes to mind is El Viejin who is similarly praised for his dance accompaniement but is lagging far behind in the fame game (at least outside of flamenco circles). I'm not comparing their playing, just saying they seem to have the same "problem" of being extremely well regarded yet barely known outside of a rather small circle.



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 14 2016 20:09:32)

Y Pedro Bacan hombres! [:D]



jshelton5040 -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 14 2016 20:18:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Y Pedro Bacan hombres! [:D]

I drove 200 miles to see Pedro Bacan play and left at intermission due to boredom. In fairness, I understand he was hitting the bottle pretty hard at the time but honestly it was the only time I can remember walking out of a recital by a flamenco guitarist.



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 14 2016 20:32:45)

Ouch! Sounds like a rough experience......ssshhhhhh don't tell anyone but I walked out on Vicente the other week. Still think of him as one of the greatest on earth, I was just bored. I'd prefer to see Pedro with a singer than solo.



DavRom -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 14 2016 21:00:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador
I walked out on Vicente the other week.


you deserve 40 lashes with a wet noodle

his nearest concert to me was 12 hours round trip (and mid-week) so i didn't get to see him at all

shame on you!



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 14 2016 21:10:56)

Hahahaha, I love Vicente's albums and he's absolutely top 5 best guitarists ever, I just wasn't prepared for a recital. Last time I saw him he had two dancers two singers, it was a whole show. This was a guitar recital. It's like expecting Sprite and getting Tonic. Tonics fine when I expect it, not when I was looking forward to Sprite.



Nito -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Apr. 15 2016 6:29:43)

Paco is considered one of the best (or perhaps the best) guitar accompaniment for some generations (For me it's Moraito and Cepero). As it has been said in this forum, his trajectory is brilliant, not only like accompaniment guitarist, if not composer and productor.

After a long time waiting, last month we could enjoy Paco Cepero on my Peña. 100 people, no more. Each cante was a perfect lesson how the guitarist must assist.

He came with Samuel Serrano, young 'cantaor' (mentored by Paco).

Listen the mythical 'falsetas' was absolutely spectacular...




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