I'm kind of over solo guitar (Full Version)

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Leñador -> I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 4:49:17)

So I went to Vicente Amigos show tonight and the first ten minutes my jaw was on the ground his technique and musicality is soooo much more apparent live than on the recordings. He's hands down absolutely one of the very best guitarists alive or possibly ever. Then after about half an hour or so of just guitar I started to lose interest a bit. The singer sang one coletilla type thing in there somewhere and that was great but that was it. Then 60 minutes in and I started getting really antsy. He was still playing amazingly but just guitar and 30 seconds of singing was just not enough to hold my interest. No dancer for LA by the way, evidently were the bastard city of California flamenco. I had a similar experience at the Tomatito show. I just can't watch someone play guitar silently in a stale room for more than about 20-30 minutes. I need something to break up the virtuosity, some singing some dancing some talking just something. The farruquito show recently was 90 minutes too and it held my interest the entire time. I could even do just guitar and singing for 90 minutes but just instrumental guitar for 90 minutes makes me a little crazy, even at the virtuosic level of Vicente amigo. I've noticed lately too I'm hardly listening to solo guitar stuff, it's just not doing it for me lately. I need cante, it just starts getting boring after a while. Anyone else had a similar experience at a guitar hero show????



estebanana -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 5:49:00)

Congratulations for admitting that in public.

And now you may graduate to a higher level of flamenco aficion and join the rascals and old farts who gather in the bar when a guitar player launches into 30 minute Rondena.

Ole'



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 6:08:24)

Hahahaha, yeah, I feel like I should get a ring that says dont waste your picado on me lol.



jg7238 -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 6:27:16)

http://youtu.be/ykdJIU8iSTM

So Paco wasn't too far off in what he says at around 0:35....[:D]



estebanana -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 11:08:02)

I get fed up with solo guitar of all kinds, then go back and listen to Link Wray and then Surf guitar and I fall back in love with the whole mess.

Then some days I drink a few beers and listen to Jimmy Page and I'm 12 years old again. Love that ****.

Of course solo guitar sucks. [:D]

I love the guitar don't get me wrong, but 90 minutes of stage based solo flamenco guitar is just not right on the ear. It is a commercial sell and I am humbled by anyone who can do it, but I want a balanced meal. I want some guitar, and a lot of meat an potatoes singing of the big four main cantes. I want a lot ot solea and bulerias and between that hell yeah let the guitar player do that solo thing and bust down the doors. the pul it back together and do siguiriya or a cantinas.

I'm not anti guitar but I also don't have the capacity to really understand 90 minutes of solo flamenco guitar without cante as the main idea. Cante cannot sell big venues like solo guitar...but I never begrudge a guitar player to lock into serious solo playing, only I admit can't really understand it goign on gor hours and hours out of the context of dance and singing.



Piwin -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 11:42:14)

Solo guitar is so passé. Solo palmas is where all the action is![:D]

I've never seen a V. Amigo show. I always enjoyed Gerardo Nunez live because every time I've seen him, he manages to give as much if not more attention to the other artists on stage and is often there "just" as an accompanyist. Everyone gets their moment in the spotlight. As for Amigo's show, I found it rather telling that people where asking on here who the dancers were and what not. You'd figure their names should be up there too if they're an integral part of the show. It can be all the more frustrating that obviously these guys attract some of the best dancers and singers, so you know they're really good but don't really get a chance to see/listen to them.



JasonM -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 13:56:12)

Len, I'm glad you finally got to experience el 'cente in person!

The dancer must have been sick or something. I think Vicente should have substituted or made that part up with a bulerias Juerga style featuring Rafael or even himself sing some letras with some improv. He needs that there to break things up. But maybe the dancer bailed at the last min and there was no time to throw a quick rehearsal.

As far as getting burned out after a while, happened to me too. Rafael is such a good singer, I would like to have seen a solea in there or something... But, I think Vicente knows that there needs to be some variety in intensity etc, I just think he feels he needs to satisfy all of HIS fans, not just flamenco's like us.



DavRom -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 15:06:34)

you poor souls! how do you put up with yourselves playing your guitar for hours?

LOL

i love listening to solo guitar for long periods. no different than listening to Beethoven piano sonatas or Bach violin partitas and cello suites etc...

solo flamenco guitar... like dew on the petal of a flower

ha!



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 15:18:39)

Yeah I really liked Rafaels voice too, I kept waiting and waiting for a song to feature him but it never happened. I saw Cente in 2012 and there was two singers and I think two dancers, I remember being surprised how traditional the show was. Flamenco was still new to me then and I was all about solo guitar so I wonder if my memory is skewed.

My lady still loves solo guitar so we still put it on at home and I don't mind and even enjoy it when I don't have to give it 100% of my attention. But when I'm alone it's pretty rare, it's generally metal and cante which I'm certain are all my neighbours combination of favorites too. [:D]
Although I'm lovin my new Cacho Tirao record.....



Grisha -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 15:36:37)

I noticed that Vicente was overusing the same tonality, and he doesn't use capo much. His music is beautiful and he plays with incredible sensitivity and technical virtuosity, but his style is so unique and recognizable that after a while every piece starts to sound similar to the rest. He needs to think more about programming, what comes after what. If done right, it will feel like a musical journey.

I understand the excitement of a flamenco get together (been there), and I appreciate a show with lots of cante and baile. Seeing Agujetas was a special experience, and Andres Marin was phenomenal (although very few flamencos came to see him). My favorite show so far was Estrella Morente last year. Just perfect in every sense. But at the same time I feel flamenco guitar has evolved into a very advance art form that can have its own audience. Solo guitar has its own merit, but it takes more effort for the audience to follow and usually more effort to perform.

I grew up outside of the whole rock culture, and never even attended a rock concert. I know a lot of the foro members used to play in a band, while I never did. Musically I was brought up in a more academic way where you were not to make a noise during a performance and just clap politely at the end (perhaps a quiet "bravo"). Maybe because of that sitting through a classical concert feels right to me but induces yawns for some people here that are more used to the loud fun setting of a band performance.



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 15:56:22)

I get what your saying Grisha and it certainly has become an art to itself, which has been maybe the greatest and worst thing to happen to flamenco. Greatest because that enviornment produced Paco and the like, worst because everyone thinks anything with a nylon string guitar is flamenco and we have albums called "nuveu flamenco".

I would enjoy more of a party atmosphere at some flamenco shows now that you mention it. I don't mind sitting and starring but every single show gets monotonous. I wish we had a flamenco bar atmosphere out here where the line between audience and performer was a bit more blurry. Maybe I'll make it my life's work since I'll never be a star guitarist. [:D]
Come to LA Grisha I'll take you to a metal show! [:D]

quote:


http://youtu.be/ykdJIU8iSTM
So Paco wasn't too far off in what he says at around 0:35....

That's about right, thats a really hard job solo guys have.



BarkellWH -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 15:59:38)

I prefer listening to cante with accompanying guitar and palmas (cajon optional). But I still very much enjoy listening to solo guitar and sometimes long for the live performances by Sabicas and Carlos Montoya that I attended long ago when I was just beginning to love listening to flamenco. Just the man and his instrument, and the amazing things he did with his instrument.

What I get tired of is the cacophony of sounds and instruments that appear with some flamenco performances these days: bass guitars, harmonicas, and the like. But I've already ground that axe on the Foro before.

Bill



rombsix -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 16:16:56)

I am starting to like cante more and more, but for me, listening to some awesome, really well-recorded solo flamenco guitar (more libre nowadays) is always the best.



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 16:25:14)

My most hated instrument added to flamenco - saxophone.

Listening to and watching a show is totally different for me. If I listen to music I'm not obligated to give 100% attention. When your seeing live you have to. It's a whole different experience.



Grisha -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 16:36:22)

Agree about the saxophone. In flamenco setting it always sounded vulgar to me. I like the flute. Violin is slowly growing on me.

I've been listening to Najee lately to relax. Now, that's the saxophone I like!



Andy Culpepper -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 17:00:53)

Personally I just don't care for theater flamenco shows. Not sure exactly why but it would never interest me to go see any of my flamenco guitar icons in a theater setting. I would much prefer to watch some no-name player accompany some impromptu cante in a bar in Sevilla.
There is something about flamenco where I just need to be within 15 feet of the artists. So you can hear the real acoustic sound of the guitar and how it interacts with the voice. You can watch their technique up close and see the perspiration on the fingerboard when they change positions. You feel the vibrations of the actual instrument, not speakers that are 100 feet away.

I love going and watching someone like Neko Case or Jason Isbell do a theatre show. That music was made with amplification in mind.

Damn, I am starting to sound like an old timer now[:D] I still love listening to modern flamenco recordings, where the sound is more crisp and present (especially with headphones).



tele -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 17:07:06)

Next you need to study spanish hard to understand the cante, right? Even my spanish friends have difficulty understanding the words in the songs sometimes.



DavRom -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 18:25:18)

some of the comments here remind me of Paco quoting his father who detested the sound of the fretless bass in flamenco: "...that bass sounds like spiritists." after which Paco laughs

see La Busqueda @ 1:07:00


quote:

ORIGINAL: tele
Even my spanish friends have difficulty understanding the words in the songs sometimes.


that happens in all languages

can you understand all the lyrics by Radiohead or Sigur Rós?



Richard Jernigan -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 18:47:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper
Damn, I am starting to sound like an old timer now[:D]


Being a board-certified old timer, I don't mind saying that for me solo guitar has been a very minor fraction of flamenco listening for at least two decades.

Playing still gets the pulse rate up for me. Listening, not so much.

Baile--a ten-minute alegrias with footwork faster than a speeding bullet would put me to sleep if it weren't for all the damned noise. One exception was Paloma Fantova when she was here with Tomatito. She was utterly magnificent. They only let her do two numbers. I would have liked to see more, and something slow.

The most moving baile performance that sticks in memory for me was an exquisitely slow soleá in bata de cola by Carmen Amaya. But just to show she could still do it, she reappeared in pants, boots and bolero jacket to blow the roof off the Village Gate with a blazing bulerias.

I liked Antonio Gades, Laura del Sol and Cristina Hoyos in Saura's "Carmen", but it was a good story, and I saw it with my Japanese girlfriend whom I had recently fallen in love with. She liked it too, so we had a great time.

Paco was in "Carmen", but I don't remember much of what he played. I'm sure it was great.

Give me a good cantaor or cantaora and a good accompanist, and I'll be happy for at least a couple of hours.

RNJ



El Frijolito -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 18:51:41)

I suspect the issues of pacing and programming are and have been at the forefront of considerations of gigging guitarists, particularly headliners. Two hours or so of full-throttle fuego tends to be rather unmemorable - it works better in small doses throughout the set, coupled with dynamics and tempo contrasts, and highlighting other performers as well.

Flamenco faces a challenge in that its traditional context doesn't necessarily translate well to other types of venues, and the audience for cante is smaller - partly for aesthetic reasons and partly for the language barrier. This makes pacing and programming more challenging.

In the jazz genre, Wes Montgomery seems to have thought about pacing and programming - as a leader he had to throw in some dramatic soloing, but his small groups necessarily shared spotlight time with other instrumentalists (expectations of the genre). Beyond that, he took advantage of a wide range of repertoire (standards, blues, ballads, originals) and would typically play a solo chord-melody - all with widely varying tempos, feels, and moods. He had the capacity to burn for chorus after chorus, but usually held this in check. A story I've heard recently has him turning down an invitation to play with Coltrane because he couldn't see the point of playing the same tune for an hour.

I also reflect on seeing Allan Holdsworth a few years back, in a bar filled to capacity and overflowing into the parking lot. Even Allan, who is (perhaps reluctantly) a barn-burner extraordinaire, does a bit in his sets where the rhythm section sits out and he plays a slow-paced chordal composition that's rather different from the pyrotechnics of his other tunes, and with a rather different sound palette. Also, he tries to vary his compositions in terms of the string sets and voicing structures each employs.

Anyway, just some thoughts on how guitar headliners in another genre seem to have addressed the issues of pacing and variety.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 18:52:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavRom
can you understand all the lyrics by Radiohead or Sigur Rós?


Back in my college days I played a Bo Diddley record for two friends, an Englishman and a white South African. After it was over they said it was interesting, and asked what language he was singing in.

RNJ



El Frijolito -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 18:59:36)

"I'm from South America."

"Which part of South America?"

"South Texas."

I forget which song of his that was, but that exchange always used to crack me up.
I was absolutely floored after seeing "Cadillac Records," which made absolutely no mention of him (probably for reasons related to plot/character streamlining, but still abominable).

Didn't he become a rancher in New Mexico?



Richard Jernigan -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 19:01:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Frijolito
Anyway, just some thoughts on how guitar headliners in another genre seem to have addressed the issues of pacing and variety.


Last time I saw the classical guitarist Roland Dyens in person was at a guitar festival in Cuernavaca, Mexico in 2000.

One sequence in the program was Baden Powell's "Berimbau" filled with rhythmic complexity, followed by a blazing up-tempo version of Jobim's "A Felicidade". Then he took the edge off with a deeply meditative account of Monk's slow and darkly dreamy " 'Round Midnight." The effect was dramatic.

RNJ



Richard Jernigan -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 19:08:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Frijolito

"I'm from South America."

"Which part of South America?"

"South Texas."

I forget which song of his that was, but that exchange always used to crack me up.
I was absolutely floored after seeing "Cadillac Records," which made absolutely no mention of him (probably for reasons related to plot/character streamlining, but still abominable).

Didn't he become a rancher in New Mexico?


From age 4 until age 17 I spent every summer on the South Texas ranch. The rest of the time I lived all over the place with my U.S. Air Force family. After a couple of years at university I worked in a cotton gin in Willacy County the summer I was 19. I was more than 30 years old before it really sank in on me what a truly weird place South Texas was, and still is.

RNJ



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 20:11:25)

quote:

Next you need to study spanish hard to understand the cante, right? Even my spanish friends have difficulty understanding the words in the songs sometimes.

None of my Mexican and Salvedorian coworkers can understand the words, I usually do a little better than them because I've now been exposed to more Andalu through Internet radio and YouTube interviews etc.
The actual words being sung are not super important to me. It's more about the emotion behind it. I'll never be able to relate to most of it because they're usually singing about VERY specific regional experiences. But it's a great bonus when I can relate to something!
quote:

Baile--a ten-minute alegrias with footwork faster than a speeding bullet would put me to sleep if it weren't for all the damned noise. One exception was Paloma Fantova when she was here with Tomatito. She was utterly magnificent. They only let her do two numbers. I would have liked to see more, and something slow.

I second all of that!
quote:

Give me a good cantaor or cantaora and a good accompanist, and I'll be happy for at least a couple of hours.

And all of this!



estebanana -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 20:55:55)

quote:

Personally I just don't care for theater flamenco shows. Not sure exactly why but it would never interest me to go see any of my flamenco guitar icons in a theater setting. I would much prefer to watch some no-name player accompany some impromptu cante in a bar in Sevilla.
There is something about flamenco where I just need to be within 15 feet of the artists. So you can hear the real acoustic sound of the guitar and how it interacts with the voice. You can watch their technique up close and see the perspiration on the fingerboard when they change positions. You feel the vibrations of the actual instrument, not speakers that are 100 feet away.


I agree, but 15 feet out is 5 feet too far.

One of the great things about having lived in Oakland and Berkeley is that during the 90's and 2000's many very fine artists passed through town on tour or staying in town teaching and I went to the big shows about half of the time. I usually view big theatre shows as a the beginning part of the night that interests me the least. Going to the show means you have seen it at least, but the real good stuff happens when the artists have had dinner and still feel like they want to make flamenco.

The most satisfying shows are the ones with two cante' solos in each half, or better yet, cante' baile, guitar cante' cante' cante' baile, fin. Or some such order. The Bay Area aficionados really have a taste for stage shows with that much cante and will fill a 300 -400 seat house for a show like that. Bigger venues that require more general public buying tickets and not just flamenco specialist audiences are more difficult to schedule with that much singing. Flamenco people in the Bay Area will even organize shows themselves and make a potaje and each pay 80.00 to 120.00 dollars to hire a small room and pay an artist do a show for 30-40 people. Those kinds of performances are more true flamenco than most big stage shows that have to sell out to the general public. or a 200 seat room and charge 30 or 40 .A gathering like that can go on for 6 hours, or a day if you count the carrying on after the artists performed for the allotted time. A 25 minute bulerias with two singers and two dancers would be a regular thing.

The general public does not get that kind of show and guitar solo shows are easier to sell to a 3000 seat house so a market has developed for it. It is also cheaper for a guitar show because good singers and dancers are expensive and guitarists side men, from a promoters budget view point are not. Guitar show are easier to tour because it is usually a few guys and not a lot of dancers and palmas people to flesh out a proper big show, and dragging trunks of costumes. Noche Flamenca is a more difficult and expensive show to tour than Vicente and they fill the same venue and have to pay out a different number of artists. Airfare for a big company is expensive, the tour is just more hassle and much more risk financially.

For me solo guitar in the 3000 seat auditorium is NOT flamenco , don't get me wrong I am moved by the guitar, but these solo guitar shows are a invention of a market niche that caters to general audiences that don't really have a taste or desire to see flamenco in depth. It disturbs me a bit that this market niche has come to be seen as flamenco and that a there is a notion about that guitar divorced from cante is being called flamenco of its own, but my viewpoint is probably not going to be the majority view in the future. Solo guitar shows will continue to be another obstacle one has to mount in order to see back room, kitchen, back porch flamenco. But they should go on right, I mean who does not love a guitar solo? Just not 45 minutes of Rondena.

That probably seems like a neo Stalinist attitude about flamenco, but some one has to put down the rebellion. [:D]

That said I'll probably listen to some solo guitar today, because what is flamenco? Nothing if not being able to hold two opposing view points at the same time.



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 21:08:15)

quote:

The most satisfying shows are the ones with two cante' solos in each half, or better yet, cante' baile, guitar cante' cante' cante' baile, fin. Or some such order. The ay Area afcinados really have a taste for stage shows with that much cante and will fill a 300 -400 seat house for a show like that. Bigger venues that require more general public buying tickets and not just flamenco specialist audiences are more difficult to schedule with that much singing. Flamenco popel in the Bay area will even organize shows themselves and make a potaje and each pay 80.00 to 120.00 dollars to hire a small room ad pay an artist do a show for 30-40 people. Those kinds of performances are more true flamenco than most big stage shows that have to sell out to the general public. A gathering like that can go o for 6 hours, or a day if you count the carrying on after the artists performed for the allotted time.

That's great!
I've been considering more and more opening a bar and having flamenco nights where most of the performers are in the audience and really blur that line between audience and performer. Really loosen up things out here. Shows are so sterile out here compared to my experience in Spain.



estebanana -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 21:12:33)

Need a sassy bartender?



Leñador -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 21:48:47)

quote:

Need a sassy bartender?

Hahaha I'm sure we will!



El Frijolito -> RE: I'm kind of over solo guitar (Mar. 19 2016 22:53:51)

quote:

That's great!
I've been considering more and more opening a bar and having flamenco nights where most of the performers are in the audience and really blur that line between audience and performer. Really loosen up things out here. Shows are so sterile out here compared to my experience in Spain.


You could call it, "Open Mike Night."[:D] Seriously, that would probably be the best kind of venue.



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