RE: Picado is Impossible! (Full Version)

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Florian -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:07:39)

Sorry guys intersted in picado i havent really stuck to the subject and i feel as if i made no contribution so heres my litlle contribution.

It is my feeling in general that to get faster picado u bave to become better [:D] Once your finghers will get faster so will your picado [:)] I have never meet anyone that has great picado and poor rasqueado.

theres alot of truth in that[8|]



itoprover -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:08:30)

Grisha,

"Reset".. looks like it, but strange thing - this reset does not happen when open string notes are used in long 1-string picado run. Example: first fast run from PDL's "La Barrosa" - I don't play the whole piece, just extracted this run and use it as an exercise.

Thanks,

Ilia



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:12:28)

Florian, I think you need at least fifteen words to qualify as a post.

There!



Grisha -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:13:17)

Ilya, I was only referring to the right hand, not the left. Reset happens when you move a finger to a different string, thus changing the trajectory of your movement. It also tells your brain precisely where you are in a scale. It is a point of reference, and you know very well what the next few notes are going to be.

Florian, you can use 14 words in your signature, and easily meet the norm with any post you make. No sweat.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:33:32)

This sound similiar to "chunking," which just means grouping several actions or processes into a single move. An "im" or ami" can be a chunk, or a "pami." Maybe when you play a scale and each string only has 2-3 notes, you can chunk more easily.

Todd was saying that he thinks scales better in threes, and Grisha I believe you said you like the 4s. The 3s is definitely more natural to me, ever since I started playing I noticed that.

I wonder if you "bounced" your hand while playing single string runs you could reset it or chunk in this way.



itoprover -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:33:47)

quote:


Do you practice one-finger scales? I used to play Segovia's scales using only i or m.


Not that much.. But I'll try - good thing I remember most of them - does it improve one string picado?



Grisha -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:35:57)

I group regular scales in 3, 4 and 8. You can reset your right hand in ANY scale by accenting one note very hard and playing the rest quieter.

It's not the point, Ilya. It is supposed to give you a better control over individual fingers. If you watch Paco's videos, you'll see that he plays with one finger quite often.



itoprover -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:47:42)

quote:


Ochen' rad pomoch' liudiam, kotorym eto interesno.


Thanks :)



Grisha -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 3:58:27)

Miguel! You mentioned something about playing 2 notes fast, that it helped you to get the speed. I was trying to suggest the same to Henrik the other day. But my "Russian" English and slow typing are holding me back. Can you please elaborate on that?



Ryan002 -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 4:22:41)

My biggest problem with picado is that my i finger plucks really, really hard, creating much more volume than any of my other fingers. Whether I want it to or not. From the way things look via the telescopes on Planet Ryan (which are pretty crude) Picado seems to be a possibility only if the day comes when I can control the pressure I exert with my fingers.

(PS. Chansey, you will end up learning Chinese pop. I did. I know we all moan at the thought of it but take what u can from in. As dull and formulaic as many are, they have good dynamics and fill-ins that are easy to steal. [;)])



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 4:32:40)

Grisha,
sure, I'll do my best...although I think Henrik plays picado a lot faster than me!

When I first started to play picado (about 5 years ago--before that, I was always free stroke or pick), my fingers would just not go fast. It was like a car stuck in 1st gear. I experimented a little, trying to figure out how to do it.

One thing I did was to play a note, say with i, and immediately play the m note. The effect is similiar to a flam, which is when a drummer hits both sticks almost simultaneously. The 2nd note is staggered slightly. Another description of the sound is an engine just getting started. Ba-DUM, ba-DUM, ba-DUM.

The two notes are part of the same motion really. You kind of play the i and during its motion already are moving the m.

Anyway, it's not even really "playing" at this point, it's more like an effect or just a motion. However, you can consider it that what you are doing is really fast, like 32nd notes at 100 or more. You can try to use this as a bridge to fast picado. All you have to do is add another note, recycle i at the end of the lick. If you can play 3 notes fast, then you can probably play lots of notes fast.

Hope this helps!



Grisha -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 4:39:06)

This is great, Miguel, thanks! It is exactly what I was trying to explain to Henrik. Just play a bunch of these im im im im im im in a row, as "close" together as possible, and you are playing 2 times faster than you think!



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 4:53:30)

This reminds me of some other piano pedagogy/theory I was studying (http://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html).

It's a way to look at arpeggios that is different than most people. Say you play a block chord pima. Now, look at the arpeggio pima. They can be looked at as very similiar, in that the block chord is the arpeggio played at infinite speed. Or the arpeggio can be looked at as the block chord played in a staggered or slowed-down manner. The difference between an arpeggio and a chord is called phase angle. In the picado example, the phase angle for a very fast im is small, or a slow im would be large.

I like this idea, because a lot of people think of certain arpeggios as fast, but if you think about them this way (or chunk them), then they are really no more faster than a block chord, just a little modified. So if you can play block chords at a certain speed, with a certain amount of practice, you can play pima arpeggios at very close to the same speed.

It also follows that a very fast arpeggio, like a roll, is not really "fast", but just a staggered chord.

Now, to look at the example of tremolo, if you put all four fingers on one string, and play it at the same time, that is rather similiar to a block chord. And if you increased the phase angle (from 0), you could then obtain a fast tremolo chunk.

This might help some people who think that their fingers don't have sufficient speed.

On the other hand, my current thinking is more about focus and slow practice and foundation work. Your post about the tremolo and slow practice has meshed with things Todd and certain other good players have told me--about control.



Grisha -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 5:07:38)

Yes, Miguel, pima is a good example because all the fingers have enough time to relax and get back without drama. But when you play an arpeggio like pimami, you suddenly have a problem, because you have to return to i and m very fast, with only one note in between of their attacks. You can trick your mind a bit by practicing i and then pima roll, and m and then amip roll. Same goes for those fast 2 notes we are discussing now. It is better to think m + im than im + recycled i.



duende -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 5:44:58)

aaah Grisha you were talking about flams like drumer do.
why didn´t you say so?[:D][:D][:D][:D] (sorry, teasing)

Henrik el...hm...mmm..[&:]



Chansey -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 6:17:37)

How often and for how long a time do you all practice your picados?

For the past few weeks I was doing about 2-3 hours straight of assorted scales and patterns every alternate day. Despite that, I can already feel some pain in my left hand knuckles and fingerjoints and my fingertips are still sore [8D]. Maybe I should take a week off or something.



rombsix -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 7:46:32)

Whoa guys! It looks to me like this thread moved far off from the subject but just came back to being about picado. So then you guys are saying that PDL can go as fast as 250 bpm 16ths or even more? I think I will never be able to get to this speed. I think that anatomically, my fingers just won't move that fast.

By the way, can any of you dudes explain to me the true difference between FAST staccato picados and FAST non-staccato picados (both of which are done via rest stroke)? I suppose a video or audio clip would help immensely. Everybody just keeps talking about staccato, but when I practice picado really really slow, I can feel the difference (between staccato and non-staccato). However, when I play faster, both staccato and non-staccato sound exactly the same. I guess when I go faster, I just (unconsciously) stop playing staccato (keeping in mind that ALL my picado is in rest stroke totally). What do you guys have to say about that?

Another question: I noticed that in the Francisco Sanchez PDL DVD (with Aranjuez and PDL's biography) as well as in other PDL videos, PDL executes a SUPER FAST picado (usually on only one string) that sound very much like alternate picking. He usually does that on the high notes of the first string (high E). I doubt that that is IM picado. I guess that is AMI picado (just like a tremolo) or something else (maybe he whips a pick out of his pocket when the camera is pointing a the two other guitarists or something![:D]). Any ideas of how he does that? I tried doing it with a classical four-note (PAMI) tremolo on the high E string, but it just does not sound as uniform or fast. I heard Jeronimo Maya do it in an MP3 somebody posted in one of the discussion rooms here.

Please let me know what you think.

Rombsix



Jon Boyes -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 8:10:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
We are after all, moving something, doing work, and all things held equal greater strength would equal greater speed.


Not necessarily - do a Google on fast twitch muscle fibres. Any athlete/trainer will tell you that training for strength vs training the contraction speed are different things, involving different parts of the muscle or muscle groups. Thats why a weight lifter looks different to a sprint cyclist [:)]

However, I think it would be a mistake to approach any technique from a purely athletic perspective.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 8:27:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Grisha, I play on table tops and the side of my thigh when I'm bored...tapping out Flamenco rhythms...I think every Flamenco player does.. but I really think it is very different to actual technique on the guitar.


Yes, very much so. I can tap my fingers on a table top and keep time with Pacos runs, whereas on a guitar my IM alternation (sixteenths) speed on one string is probably currently at around 50-60, due to my condition. What does that say about the mechanism being the same?

Table top tapping is purely flexion/extension of the large joint, tip and middle joint totally relaxed. I don't believe a string can be plucked, and then the finger returned (without crashing into the string it just played) without some flexion/extension of the other two joints as well, however small.

Its this interaction and timing of the different joints' flexion/extension that makes picado a more complex motion than table top tapping.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 8:53:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
when I practice picado really really slow, I can feel the difference (between staccato and non-staccato). However, when I play faster, both staccato and non-staccato sound exactly the same. I guess when I go faster, I just (unconsciously) stop playing staccato (keeping in mind that ALL my picado is in rest stroke totally). What do you guys have to say about that?


IMO you've answered your own question. There comes a point (speed) at which it becomes very difficult to return the following finger to the string fast enough to kill the previous finger's pluck, and then play, without it feeling continous and sounding more legato. What you have spotted in Paco is that he CAN control that, at absurd speeds ....AND chuck in changes in dynamics/timing to phrase the run as well!!![:D]

Paco-chasing is not a healthy past-time, IMO [:)]



davor -> [Deleted] (Jan. 18 2006 8:57:35)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 19 2006 8:40:49



Ron.M -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 10:00:06)

quote:

Its this interaction and timing of the different joints' flexion/extension that makes picado a more complex motion than table top tapping.


Agreed Jon....I can alternate i and m on my LEFT hand really quickly and evenly on a table top, in the same "picado position" as I hold my right hand, yet if I turn the guitar round and try to play picado on even one string I can't...it just feels all horrible and awkward. [:D]

One thing I think "table tapping" is good for though...is tapping out i,m picado in 3/4 time and getting used the the accent falling on alternate fingers.

Jon..when you guys say "sixteenth" notes at 240bpm...do you mean playing 240 single notes in a minute or what?
I don't really understand this quarter note, eighth note / bpm stuff.

cheers

Ron



ToddK -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 10:08:10)

That 4 notes per beat. DA da da da DA da da da DA da da da

past about 260bpm, its more like a vibration, than succesive individual notes.

Insanity!!! Insanity i tell you!!![:@]



Jon Boyes -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 10:17:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Jon..when you guys say "sixteenth" notes at 240bpm...do you mean playing 240 single notes in a minute or what?


No, four times that. Put simply, sixteenths is four notes per beat, with the beat (metronome) set at whatever speed we are discussing.

So sixteenths at 240bpm would be actually 240 X 4 = 960 plucks per minute.

Divide that by 60 to give you the number of notes per second.

Make sense? Its actually American terminology. In the UK we'd call them hemi-demi-semi quavers or something, which of course makes much more sense [:D]

I stopped using british rhythm terminology ages ago and know i have to look it up when someone talks about quavers and crotchets.

Anyway, as you see, that means Grisha is playing 16 notes per second.

I don't think my metronome goes that fast [:D]



ToddK -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 10:21:48)

quote:

Grisha is playing 16 notes per second



ayayay[:o][:'(][:@][&:][:-][X(]



Ron.M -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 11:18:13)

quote:

No, four times that. Put simply, sixteenths is four notes per beat, with the beat (metronome) set at whatever speed we are discussing.


I'm still too thick to understand this..[:D]
Why are 16th notes 4 to a beat?
Why aren't they called "quarter notes" (= 4 to a beat)?

If somebody plays 16th notes at 120bpm, is that the same as 8th notes at 240bpm?

This is weird terminology to me..[8|]

Up until now I've just called picado fast, bloody fast and Jee..zz..uss!! [:D]

cheers

Ron



Jon Boyes -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 11:57:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I'm still too thick to understand this..[:D]
Why are 16th notes 4 to a beat?
Why aren't they called "quarter notes" (= 4 to a beat)?


Because you are dividing the bar as well as the beat (or 'measure', as they say in the US).

Just talking about the beat tells you nothing of the rhythm. To describe the rhythm of any piece of music, you need to know the time signature - the number of beats per bar, and the value of each beat.

try this:
A standard reference point is music written in 4/4, in other words you can feel there are four clear beats to each unit or chunk of music, if tap your foot.

Count ONE, two, three, four, ONE, two three four - think of 12 bar blues or just about any basic pop/rock/blues and it will probably be in 4/4 time

OK, now if I play two notes per beat, there will be eight notes in a bar, so I will be playing eighths, if I play one note per beat I will be playing quarter notes, and so on.

It all makes a lot more sense if you read or are learning to read music, just discussing these things it can be tough to get a handle on.

quote:


If somebody plays 16th notes at 120bpm, is that the same as 8th notes at 240bpm?


Its the same in terms of raw speed if you measured it ie the number of notes being played per second.

BUT from musical perspective it is not the same thing - it would 'sound' different - the tempo would be twice as fast in the second example, giving the notes a different rhythmic feel.

Just by listening to the music you could deteremine which would therefore be the 'correct' description of what is being played.

Flamenco is not a good reference point IMO if you are trying to understand basic theory as it is too rhythmically complex and two people might feel the same rhythm differently (hence the bulerias threads). With lots of music though, time signatures and stuff are easily nailed. A waltz is 3/4, period.

Does that help?



Ron.M -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 12:36:25)

Yep!
I've got it now Jon...thanks!

cheers

Ron



Ron.M -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 13:54:04)

quote:

I stopped using british rhythm terminology ages ago and know i have to look it up when someone talks about quavers and crotchets.


Jon,
You brought back vague memories of some music theory from learning the trumpet at school.
The sort of thing that puzzled me was that the base unit note was the Semibrieve which was made up from 2 minims or 4 crotchets.
Why a "Semi"brieve? ....that would seem to indicate the existence of a "Full" Brieve, which I never came across. [:-]

Another puzzling word is a "Demijohn" of champagne....
Do two Demijohns make one full John?

(I think these sort of terms only bug folk from a science/engineering background though..[:D])

cheers

Ron



Jon Boyes -> RE: Picado is Impossible! (Jan. 18 2006 14:10:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
The sort of thing that puzzled me was that the base unit note was the Semibrieve which was made up from 2 minims or 4 crotchets.
Why a "Semi"brieve? ....that would seem to indicate the existence of a "Full" Brieve, which I never came across. [:-]


Yeah, you're right, where's the normal breve gone? why name a note that holds the full value of the bar a SEMI- anything. Makes no sense.



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