RE: What is flamenco today? (Full Version)

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Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 18:34:11)

quote:

When I was in a recording band, we were mixed for radio play, with specific monitors to replicate radios, cassette players and tv audio.


Didn't get your point but that is standard procedure even nowadays. Oh, you forgot to mention cars [:D]




Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 19:16:17)

It is not just about sound quality-it's about the skill a professional engineer brings to a project. And what a producer brings. And it's not about recording to tape.........one of my friends has been in the studio business for more than 30 years. He started out recording bands on 2", then went to ADATS before going DAWS years ago. He always has the best stuff on the market-that is part of what he is offering. Now he does a lot of sound tracks for video games. He also has a school to teach engineering, etc.
The money he has spent on gear...likely way over a million dollars. The skill of his team of engineers is not comparable to the average musician. If people can't understand that, it's because they have never watched recording pros doing their thing. Sit and watch one of these guys mix, see their command of the gear, hear the improvement they make in the sounds of the instruments, listen to the way they place instruments in the mix, and you will see that the difference is huge. An instrumentalist who tinkers with home recording gear who thinks that they can produce an end result rivaling something produced in a good studio by audio pros is deluding himself. I'm referring to the overall quality of the production-not the music itself.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

You have no clue of the matter.


Right.

quote:

Why do you think budgets are being spend on refining sound on professional recording projects?


Are they? I thought they went to drugs as usual...




You know a guy or two who recently spent money to record to tape in a top notch studio? Great.


The point is, you're either talking about a very small share of the market or you're just romanticizing your ideia of how things should be if this wasn't a business.




Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 19:47:02)

Yeah.. we also have super cars that are much better than ordinary cars BUT, do they represent the market? I don't think so.


You guys keep answering as if I don't care for sound quality or know nothing about studios and equipment. Speaking about what "is" often leads to answers regarding how people would like things to be but this is getting a bit extreme here lol


No matter how much you treasure your high end stuff and albums that took 10 years to make, music industry is a business and it adapts to the new challenges and necessities. The recording aspect has changed too, even if you want to talk about how "one friend" owns a high end studio.. that isn't representative of the whole.




Escribano -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 19:58:56)

quote:

Didn't get your point but that is standard procedure even nowadays. Oh, you forgot to mention cars


It was a contribution of information. Not every post has to be supportive or contrary [;)] Cars used a cassette or radio back then, so I think they were covered.

An engineer will use the best the studio can afford (or he/she can afford at home) but they will mix a compromise for different listening conditions.




Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 20:03:51)

quote:

It was a contribution of information. Not every post has to be supportive or contrary A car used a cassette or radio then, so I think they were covered.


I meant that I was going to add something without understanding if you were "picking a side" or "just saying" [:D]


If you have reliable monitoring you can use fx to quickly emulate all those environments/speakers. It's a huge time saver to get you in the ball park before trying the mix somewhere else.




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 21:10:00)

quote:

one of my friends has been in the studio business for more than 30 years.


what's his name?

i'm the OP of this thread and i say it's okay to drop names [;)]




Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 21:15:04)

Greg Gordon

http://www.pyramind.com/studios/services/music


Sr. Martins-the industry has changed but what hasn't changed is that most of the Cd's you listen to were recorded in professional studios. And that is going to continue for some time.




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 21:22:59)

the guy in his basement/bedroom now has access to the same tools as the big boys. he can produce a product every bit as good as them

the thing is, can he do it day in and day out cuz that's what the pros do

i think producing an acoustic guitar oriented album is hardly more than a matter of picking a good sounding space and mic'ing technique. if you get that right anybody can mix it

there's a little church in my area (now a "museum") that i know flamencos would love for that "pure" stuff to be recorded




Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 21:25:19)

Have to disagree. Unless the guy in the basement happens to be a very experienced engineer. Would like to see Toddk weigh in with his opinion.




Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 21:29:34)

quote:

the industry has changed but what hasn't changed is that most of the Cd's you listen to


What are "CD's"? [:D]


My point is that a few decades ago you had no other option than going to a "real studio" to record your music, nowadays that's not true anymore.

You have an enormous amount of albums that only see the light of the "real studio" to be mixed and/or mastered and all the recording is done at some sort of home studio.


The business has changed but this doesn't necessarily mean that you'll get poor sound if you don't use "real studios". People also evolve and learn along with the evolution and accessibility of technology.




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 21:33:07)

quote:

Unless the guy in the basement happens to be a very experienced engineer.


that's my point Mark2

using his ears, some trial and error (experience) in mic'ing technique, anyone can get a great result these days

you don't need $1,000,000 worth of hardware and studio space

many (most?) top mixers today are doing it in-the-box (on computer)




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 21:38:13)

quote:

What are "CD's"?


are you an idiot? Certificate of Deposit




Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 22:09:33)

OK, now you've conceded that many people mix and master at studios-the same type of studio that you seem to think only my friend owns. When in fact most of the professional work is still being done in those types of places. Already a significant expense for someone who expects to pay for his cd "with a few good gigs". I'll agree that many people can and do achieve a great job of tracking at home. I'll also agree that the studio model of the past is dead-likely that's why my buddy is in video game music and teaching. The video game guys have the money to pay him, and the students are tomorrow's home studio recordists. Some will make wonderful records at home, and one day, that may be where most records are made. But as long as there are people who have the money to engage the best engineers and producers, working in the best studios, that is likely where the best productions will be created.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

the industry has changed but what hasn't changed is that most of the Cd's you listen to


What are "CD's"? [:D]


My point is that a few decades ago you had no other option than going to a "real studio" to record your music, nowadays that's not true anymore.

You have an enormous amount of albums that only see the light of the "real studio" to be mixed and/or mastered and all the recording is done at some sort of home studio.


The business has changed but this doesn't necessarily mean that you'll get poor sound if you don't use "real studios". People also evolve and learn along with the evolution and accessibility of technology.




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 22:25:11)

quote:

as long as there are people who have the money to engage the best engineers and producers, working in the best studios, that is likely where the best productions will be created.


no doubt. i know i'm not arguing that

i don't know about others here, but i'm just saying it's possible these days, more than ever b4, to do it without spending millions. you just need the experience/know-how




Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 22:38:19)

@Mark2

I've been saying the same thing, maybe you didn't pay attention.
Just because there are a few hundred of pro studios making good money, that doesn't mean that a few thousand haven't gone bankrupt. There simply isn't the same demand for studio time and services if you consider the amount of people who make records nowadays.

We are talking about the music industry and your argument is that you have a friend who makes good money with music for video games? Ok..


How many flamenco records are big studio productions? How many of the budget conscious flamenco records sound really bad?




Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 22:49:16)

Uh, last time I checked music for video games is still....music. The same music you think can be made on a computer at home, and yet, they hire Greg and his team instead of saving all that money. As to flamenco records, look at the credits on your albums, uh, I mean cd's, er, well, forget it. I'm willing to bet the guys with record deals use studios. Ok fellows, it's been fun, but its' hot as hell here in the city today and I'm going to the beach right about......now.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

@Mark2
We are talking about the music industry and your argument is that you have a friend who makes good money with music for video games? Ok..

I've been saying the same thing, maybe you didn't pay attention.
Just because there are a few hundred of pro studios making good money, that doesn't mean that a few thousand haven't gone bankrupt. There simply isn't the same demand for studio time and services if you consider the amount of people who make records nowadays.



How many flamenco records are big studio productions? How many of the budget conscious flamenco records sound really bad?




Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 23:25:06)

Jeez... you're way beyond biased lol

Ok, stick to your particular cases but don't be disappointed when you're using them to illustrate a point related to a worldwide market. That never works.


Waiting to see how the "Halo Video Game" band manages their career. Can't wait for the next album and live concerts.




chester -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 14 2015 6:08:55)

Seems like nothing beats great gear and a great recording engineer and/or producer, but it's definitely possible to put out a great album without them
(though I can't seem to think of one right now) [8D]




Ruphus -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 14 2015 12:12:44)

Ches´,

It´s not about hypothetical potential, but about the leap between good recordings and stellar ones.

Some of the replies here show that the difference is not being understood, and that there is no respect for what it takes to achieve the skills for the difference.

Many musicians, surprisingly, are rather deaf anyway. And those who tinker with prosumer gear in basements, for matter of self-confirmation, anyway.
If you visit AE forums you´ll see what is being said about criteria of private clients. First thing is location. If its beautiful, that´s half the deal. Next thing is large mixer panels, no matter of what crappy build, and naturally the feature of Neumann microphones. And the clients will be coming back, even though the recorded and edited quality of their album indicating that they´d better not.

Same with the countless studio stories of bands whose hearing is compromised. Or worse even, the experience with pre-recorded tracks brought in for mixing. The engineers who don´t need doing any job, usually reject such projects, as it is too frustrating to tweak on end trying to tailor the stuff into a mix. (Related expression: "You can´t polish a turd.")

Just make a search on this and other forums and see how the majority reacts when it comes to refinement through precision in mechanical gear or strobe tuners. They can´t hear what´s lacking without, so that they dismiss it from the get go.

Each to his own, but what I dislike is the levelling-in of top skills (and top gear), and the ignorance and disrespect behind it.

I have heard some really nice tracks from home studio guys, and was quite impressed by what a classical guitarist produced with even just entry level gear in his living room.
Still, I know what the difference would had been if a William Wittman would had been there. Magic, no matter room and gear.

AE on top level is a true and high art, and it is deaf ignorance to dismiss it.
quote:

People also evolve and learn along with the evolution and accessibility of technology.

Right, in the same way like one becomes a flamenco player just by listening to the genre.

Talking out of one´s rear like this:
quote:

the guy in his basement/bedroom now has access to the same tools as the big boys. he can produce a product every bit as good as them ... i think producing an acoustic guitar oriented album is hardly more than a matter of picking a good sounding space and mic'ing technique ... you just need the experience/know-how
is based on untrained hearing and bias founded on wishful thinking to advantage amateur trackers´ overview.

quote:

How many flamenco records are big studio productions?

Which is why they often are sound-wise outperformed by productions from decades ago.

quote:

How many of the budget conscious flamenco records sound really bad?

Not sounding bad is a nobrainer in view of highly refined sonics.

Anyway, as deaf as many musicians, and as little discriminate as public may be: Sonic perfection in the end works unconsciously on the listener. It contributes quite some to the perception of music.

And in contrary to arbitrary estimations uttered here, the very least productions leading the billboards come from amateur / semi-pro environment. The very most of them still have been produced in expensive places and by highly rewarded staff.

Even tracks from home studios of rock stars that have been built with great budgets, for most end up as just lead tracks in a pro environment. (Where not seldomly even the material is played in then by professional studio musicians.)
Pretty much everything aimed grand-scale at national / international market has been re-done.

It would be only fair if the uninformed had a little respect for the proficiency of top notch audio engineering and actually go and directly compare home-made or semi-advanced output to professional production, instead of arbitrarily projecting just self-related bias.

Ruphus




Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 14 2015 12:42:47)

Oh boy...

quote:

Some of the replies here show that the difference is not being understood, and that there is no respect for what it takes to achieve the skills for the difference.


I didn't notice any replies in that sense, which makes this even more odd. I don't really understand what all that arguing is about.


Saying that a market/industry behaves in a certain way is not the same as taking a side. I thought this would be clear even to those who never studied business or marketing, now it seems like I am talking to robots.




Escribano -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 14 2015 14:10:34)

Enough of this bitching, please! Ruphus and Sr. Martins have made their points and the opinions are well expressed. Let's get back on-topic, please.




Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 14 2015 14:19:08)

Today's flamenco could lose a bit of the excessive polish that some albums feature and steer towards Rosa de Papel's (Myrddin's latest album) type of sound. In my opinion, that would bring back some of the "all togheter in a cave" element instead of the excessive instrument separation that we hear.

Don't know if that would help selling more albums but that's something I would enjoy.




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 14 2015 22:08:48)

nothing wrong with a bit of grime and dirt if the music is gonna be more "alive"

i haven't heard enough old and new recordings to notice whether modern flamenco recordings are indeed too "polished"




Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 14 2015 23:37:14)

Old flamenco: ultra grime and dirt, very ambient vibe, saturated sound..

Post old flamenco: very clean, guitars are often "mids-shy" in the mix, backing vocals sound like they were made by the same people for every album that comes out, a lot more reverb than it should have, overall lack of balls..


Of course, this is a generalization and you can still find modern stuff that doesn't follow this trend... and if you dig really deep you can even find albums where the bass plays the lower octave.




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 15 2015 0:02:35)

quote:

...backing vocals sound like they were made by the same people for every album that comes out, a lot more reverb than it should have, overall lack of balls..


i can't argue with that. i would enjoy some more cojones on "modern" vocals a la Camaron

but some of the modern vocals do fit the production

wait, isn't Camaron "modern"




BarkellWH -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 15 2015 0:15:13)

quote:

wait, isn't Camaron "modern"


Not in his early days, best exemplified by the video made circa 1969, with Camaron and Turronero singing and Paco Cepero accompanying, and Paco de Lucia with his back to the camera. They are all sitting around a wooden table in a haze of cigarette smoke. Camaron is singing beautifully and rapping the table with his knuckles. Now that is traditional flamenco, and it is very good indeed!

Bill




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 15 2015 0:20:52)

quote:

Not in his early days, best exemplified by the video made circa 1969, with Camaron and Turronero singing and Paco Cepero accompanying


in another video from that period Camaron said (in response to being accused of losing "purity") that people didn't understand his style of singing, but that he just follows his muse ("mi aire")

it's in "Rito y geografía del cante - Camarón de la Isla" c. 13:00

i don't know how many around this foro speak fluent Spanish, but it really helps when watching these old videos. In that video Cepero admits to PdL's innovative influence on him




mark indigo -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 16 2015 20:06:29)

quote:

I say Paco is flamenco no matter what


Dos Guitarras Flamencas en América Latina, Paco de Lucía y Ramón de Algeciras en Hispanomérica, Paco de Lucía Interpreta a Manuel de Falla, Concierto de Aranjuez, Cancion Andaluza - none of these albums are flamenco.




DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 20 2015 8:26:16)

maybe we can distinguish between what is in the flamenco spirit and what is in the flamenco genre




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