RE: What is flamenco today? (Full Version)

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Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 20:05:01)

@Mark2

Let's not forget that nowadays you can make a good sounding record with very little money.

Anyways, I am not concerned with the amount of releases, I think there are too many already. It's so easy and inexpensive to make a record that people nowadays release their record even before they begin to enjoy music.. which leads to the amount of derivative crap that populates most genres.



Bulerias2005 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 20:48:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Have you considered that there may not be as many releases because there is no money in it? I recently read that the guy who wrote a huge pop hit-"All about that bass" or some such bs-was complaining that he had millions of streams, downloads, or whatever, and made something like 5k. In the past a hit like that would have generated over a million dollars for the writer. There is little financial incentive for new guitarists to record cd's. I realize people need to prove themselves and if they hope to have a career, they need to record, but if you are an unknown guitarist your chances of making a return on a recording are pretty slim. OTOH, if an up and comer gets hired by this company or that singer, he can maybe make a living.....

If one is smart about things, it can cost next-to-nothing to make a professional recording -- nothing a few good gigs wouldn't pay for. I don't think that's the reason why the number of recordings have dried up.



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 21:42:29)

quote:

I recently read that the guy who wrote a huge pop hit-"All about that bass" or some such bs-was complaining that he had millions of streams, downloads, or whatever, and made something like 5k


not to argue your point, it is indeed increasingly difficult to make money from recordings

but the writer of "All about that bass" must have made a really lousy deal with the record company/publisher. that original song (sung by Meghan Trainor) has nearly 300,000,000 plays on Spotify alone (worth over $2,000,000 split between parties). that's not counting all the offshoot versions (remixes, kidz bop etc.)

horror stories abound in the history of recorded music

Spotify pays the owners every time their song is played...

An Enterprising Band Made $20,000 Scamming Spotify:
http://www.altpress.com/news/entry/band_makes_completely_silent_album_scams_spotify_for_20000



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 21:49:42)

and on that note...

every time Paco's music is played on Spotify his estate will continue to make money for the next 70 years

i play it all the time, and all the other flamencos too

or is Paco not flamenco (pure)?



BarkellWH -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 21:53:02)

quote:

It's so easy and inexpensive to make a record that people nowadays release their record even before they begin to enjoy music.. which leads to the amount of derivative crap that populates most genres.


The same thing applies to writing. There are "vanity" publishers who, for a fee, will edit and "publish" anything that any Jackass wants to write and thus call himself an "author." For an additional fee they will even write a glowing "review" of the "author's" book. It is, as the Germans say, pure "quatsch." But it enables the would-be author to sit at a bar, and when someone asks what he does, he can answer, "I'm a writer, and I've just published a book." These frauds hang around chi-chi places like Santa Fe and Sedona, where they can tell their stories to the "artsy" types.

Bill



Leñador -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 22:19:23)

quote:

or is Paco not flamenco (pure)?

He certainly can be, depends on which song/recording/album. A person is not pure, a song/recording is. Pacos album with Fosforito, very pure, Pacos last album, not even flamenco(quite intentionally).



Leñador -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 22:23:03)

quote:

The same thing applies to writing. There are "vanity" publishers who, for a fee, will edit and "publish" anything that any Jackass wants to write and thus call himself an "author." For an additional fee they will even write a glowing "review" of the "author's" book. It is, as the Germans say, pure "quatsch." But it enables the would-be author to sit at a bar, and when someone asks what he does, he can answer, "I'm a writer, and I've just published a book." These frauds hang around chi-chi places like Santa Fe and Sedona, where they can tell their stories to the "artsy" types.


Bill, I can't even begin to tell you how bad it is out here. [:D]



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 23:51:12)

quote:

Pacos last album, not even flamenco(quite intentionally).


intentionally? so Paco stated his last album is not flamenco?

where can i read/hear or see (video) about this?

btw, when i said Paco i meant his music, but i've read/heard people described as "flamencos." then you also have "flamenceria"



Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 12 2015 23:57:38)

Well, the definition of "professional" varies quite a bit.
I'm not new to recording, and am well aware of the products that are available to home recordists. I have a little pro tools setup myself. But a serious engineer, whose goal it is to make recordings that can compete with commercial releases such as Tierra, etc. is going to need a lot more than an mbox. Just the gear alone costs thousands.

Then there is the skill to use it, which takes years to develop. The time to write, rehearse, perfect, and capture the performance. Sidemen, who if they are professional musicians, usually want to be paid. Then you have mixing, mastering, art, duplication, promotion.

If someone thinks they have the stuff to compete with the pros, they are going to try to put out a product that stands up to the competition, and are most likely going to a studio, where someone is going to drop serious money. And what are the odds of a return on that these days from an investor's point of view?

Sure, if you are a solo guitarist, with a few good mikes, a good room, and plenty of skill you can record a cd that you can sell at gigs and recover your investment pretty quickly. That is not the same thing as putting yourself in a position to compete with established recording artists IMO.

As to the writer of "all about that bass", he could have been referring to spotify revenue only, but it was millions of plays for 5k. Rip off any way you shake it.







quote:

ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Have you considered that there may not be as many releases because there is no money in it? I recently read that the guy who wrote a huge pop hit-"All about that bass" or some such bs-was complaining that he had millions of streams, downloads, or whatever, and made something like 5k. In the past a hit like that would have generated over a million dollars for the writer. There is little financial incentive for new guitarists to record cd's. I realize people need to prove themselves and if they hope to have a career, they need to record, but if you are an unknown guitarist your chances of making a return on a recording are pretty slim. OTOH, if an up and comer gets hired by this company or that singer, he can maybe make a living.....

If one is smart about things, it can cost next-to-nothing to make a professional recording -- nothing a few good gigs wouldn't pay for. I don't think that's the reason why the number of recordings have dried up.



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:01:13)

quote:

As to the writer of "all about that bass", he could have been referring to spotify revenue only, but it was millions of plays for 5k. Rip off any way you shake it.


ripoff, but not by Spotify...his business partners/agent/publisher. who knows?



Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:01:18)

found the article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34344619/all-about-that-bass-writer-says-he-got-5679-from-178m-streams



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:05:51)

^^^^

there are other stories online like that which don't tell the "whole" story

if i were an upcoming artist/songwriter today i would make sure i got a good chunk out of the streaming revenues cuz that's where the money is these days...not CDs

Taylor Swift pulled her music out of Spotify even tho she was making millions from it, but only cuz she could afford to (her concerts and CDs sell by the millions)

Swift is no where like your typical artist. Her decision was like a hunger strike that can end by simply going to McDonalds



Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:14:41)

You are most likely correct in that the whole story is not in that article. But I'm pretty sure most people who are in, or know something about the business of music over the last 30-40 years, would agree that recordings are not what they used to be in terms of revenue generators for artists of all types, be they well established, or a local gigging musician. Hopefully that will change at some point.



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:19:02)

quote:

recordings are not what they used to be in terms of revenue generators for artists of all types... Hopefully that will change at some point.


agreed!

that's why i said the money is in streaming. and no, it will not change at some point. CDs and other hard media are history thanks to the WWW

streaming is the future of recordings. hell it is the now



Mark2 -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:29:29)

You have to record if your gong to stream. It really comes down to scale. If you can record on the cheap, it won't take much to recover, but I was responding to the thought that there aren't that many top quality flamenco guitar releases these days. I think lack of potential return could be one of the reasons. Not that the artists don't want to record, but that investors don't want to risk the money in this environment.



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:30:45)

damn, i'm drifting, somebody reel me in

I say Paco is flamenco no matter what

and Geraldo and Vicente and Antonio

but what do i know?



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:33:41)

quote:

...there aren't that many top quality flamenco guitar releases these days. I think lack of potential return could be one of the reasons. ...investors don't want to risk the money in this environment.


hard to disagree with that

they need to understand the new environment



gmburns -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:41:20)

apropos of nothing:

I prefer listening to the cante over the guitar, especially the stuff from the 1950s-1970s. For some reason I get the sense that singers stuck to the traditional forms but were more melodic. Not sure how that can be, but it's my impression.

In Brasil, the dance is the most common form (and stronger than you'd think it would be here). I think this is the case in most of South America with regards to flamenco. I wonder if this is because of the influence of La Argentina, La Argenetinita, and Carmen Amaya, all of whom spent a considerable amount of time here (the first two, of course, were born in Buenos Aires). All three were dancers at heart and singers "on the side". Of course with Amaya came Sabicas, but he was pretty much the accompanist in spite of his brilliance with Amaya.

Didn't a lot of the flamenco singers from the 60s, 70s, and 80s turn to pop at some point, or on occasion? I don't mean flamenco pop, I mean actual pop. I'm bummed grooveshark is gone because I can't remember the name of the song, but I was pretty surprised to come across a Camaron song that was solid pop and even on the rock side of things. I know Paco's brother went off the wagon a few times as well. In any case, maybe as has been mentioned before, it's easier to make money with the guitar than it is with the cante. But I get bored with too much guitar. I need something else, so I really like the cante more.

And Eric Clapton is to blues as Johnny Walker is to whiskey. I'm of Scottish descent. I'll let you figure out how I feel about that.



Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 0:48:00)

When you had to pay thousands to get in a studio and record to tape, a record company would take your soul and you would give them music regularly.

With the amount of independent releases we have nowadays, the only contracts are for distribution.. which means you have no obligation to make records and you'll have to figure it out for yourself how to promote, play live and make money.


Since everyone has access to making records and playing here and there and everyone gets pieces of the pie (money), records end up being more of a businees card in genres such as flamenco.


Take a look at Diego del Morao's busy schedule.. now look at the release date of his own album (Orate, 2010).

I am sure he enjoys making his own music... but that's not where the real money is.



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 1:24:57)

^^^^

the most money for the artist has always been in concertizing and merchandising, regardless of genre (albeit 360 deals with record companies is eating into that)

but we were only talking about recordings here



Leñador -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 2:07:54)

quote:

damn, i'm drifting, somebody reel me in

I say Paco is flamenco no matter what

and Geraldo and Vicente and Antonio

but what do i know?


His last album was not flamenco, it was a "genre"(wrong word but can't think of right one) called cancion andaluz, kinda like when he did that album of Latin American covers with his brother. Just because besa me mucho is played by Paco doesnt mean it's flamenco lol. And I love Vicente but Roma is not a flamenco song either.



Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 2:18:04)

Paco and Vicente are both gitanos, anything they did/do becomes flamenco.

Oh, wait..



chester -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 5:11:39)

quote:

I was pretty surprised to come across a Camaron song that was solid pop and even on the rock side of things.


Camaron's got an album called La Leyenda del Tiempo where he's taking it pretty far.

Cheesy as fudge. I can't help but love it -


I think Tomatito's on it as well



Ruphus -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 11:27:54)

Some here seem to be underestimating what professional audio means and how demanding it is to master it.

Put on an album that´s been done by someone "smart about things" and then switch to a major production done by people like Rupert Neve or Bob Katz & co. in special buildings and technical environment.

Did the project studio track sound good? Only when you switched to the second album the first one suddenly appearing muffled, smeared and tiny in comparison?
Only worse the more tracks a mix contained?
That is the difference.

There is a reason why some dozens of people are being ordered to expensive facilities to produce music that is remarkably pristine and spatial and in the same time sonically organic with the arrangement. (And coming through with any auditioning gear from hi-fi down to kitchen radios.)

If a rig from M-audio with a talented enthusiast at the gear would be doing the same, labels would not shell out the extra bucks for booking pro studios and expensive engineers plus tickets, hotels and catering.

And while cream of the top music can be satisfactory even through blund recordings, on the other hand lots of mediocre content is basically being carried through stellar sonics. Today audio quality makes half of the ground for the billboards. Consumers more taken by sound than aware about it.

The skills of engineering crop is just as hard to reach like the top of any demanding subject. Even decades of fiddling around may not bring you there unless allowed to learn from masters.

Ruphus

PS:
I have heard impressive material from people who managed things on their own, but that is definitly not what you can commonly expect from the ethusiast.



Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 12:44:18)

@Ruphus

I don't want to start an argument with you but you're mixing up things. No one's talking about audio quality.. but anyways, you don't need to use an expensive studio with tape to get quality.

Albums aren't going to sell more just because they have "better sound", most of the people who buy music are going to listen to it on 5€ earbuds. People are already used to compression artifacts and slammed/unnatural sounds. If you make your record very dynamic, people are going to complain that they have to skip your album on their ipods because it doesn't match the rest of the music they have there and also because they can't hear it well on the street.



Ruphus -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 14:17:39)

Compression is one thing, whereas overall audio quality consists of more aspects than that.

Whether overly compressed or auditioned through mediocre devices: Music recorded (and produced) professionally carries qualities that make for a considerable part of the listening pleasure.

You won´t get that as easily like by obtaining some recording gear and brewing things oneself.

Don´t underestimate the high art of tracking, mixing & mastering!
Lots of it reaches the listenerer unconsciously.

As I said, just A/B the two recording categories (amateuer / intermediate and pro production) directly, and it will become evident.

Ruphus



Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 14:51:19)

You seem to think that you're talking to a kid that just upgraded his 5€ earbuds with a 10€ pair...

As I've said, no one's talking about sound quality as a factor to sell records.. mainly because it IS NOT a factor. It's not about "me not knowing what sounds good".


The share of the market that is concerned with audio quality and audiophile records might reach... uh, probably 3% to 5%, if we include prog rock audiophiles.



Ruphus -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 17:42:47)

You have no clue of the matter.
Sound sells, and the lower the artistic level, like vastly in realms of techno, rap and disco music, the more essentiial sound quality is to sales.
Professional level at the making of albums is no exclusive audiophile matter, but commonly at work for most of major label´s established projects.
Go talk to heads of major labels and see what they have to say about audio quality in relation to sales.

Or wait, much easier; answer this one:
Why do you think budgets are being spend on refining sound on professional recording projects?

Ruphus



Sr. Martins -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 17:54:11)

quote:

You have no clue of the matter.


Right.

quote:

Why do you think budgets are being spend on refining sound on professional recording projects?


Are they? I thought they went to drugs as usual...




You know a guy or two who recently spent money to record to tape in a top notch studio? Great.


The point is, you're either talking about a very small share of the market or you're just romanticizing your ideia of how things should be if this wasn't a business.



Escribano -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Oct. 13 2015 18:30:59)

quote:

The share of the market that is concerned with audio quality and audiophile records might reach... uh, probably 3% to 5%, if we include prog rock audiophiles.


When I was in a recording band, we were mixed for optimal radio play, with specific monitor speakers for radios, cassette players and tv audio.



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