RE: What is flamenco today? (Full Version)

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BarkellWH -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 22 2015 22:02:15)

I think it would be very hard to get inside the heads of the audience for Jimmie Rodgers' music to determine what, or even if, they were thinking at the time they heard it performed. Rodgers definitely is considered one of the great influences of country music. Hank Williams and others acknowledged their debt to him. I doubt that Jimmie Rodgers' audiences in the '20s and '30s were thinking he was channeling black blues. We see the influence of blues on Rodgers from our historical and social perspective today, but his audience at the time was primarily a rural, white niche. He was not widely popular across class, geographic, and income lines, as Elvis Presley later bacame. But if one thinks, as I do, that country music is in many respects "white" blues, Rodgers' contribution does not seem that exotic. But that is an observation made from today's vantage point.

I certainly agree with you on Robert Johnson. But others make for great listening as well: Blind Willie McTell, Big Bill Broonzy, etc. It was, and remains, great music.

Bill



chester -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 3:54:07)

quote:

American music [...]
Eric Clapton -> Cream -> Muddy Waters -> Howling Wolf -> Sonny Boy Williamson -> Robert Johnson.


Eric Clapton's British.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 5:13:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

Eric Clapton's British.


Yes, but he was playing American music [8D]

There's a hilarious sequence on the "Howlin' Wolf London Sessions." They were running the tape while Wolf tried to teach "Little Red Rooster" to the starry lineup: Clapton, Steve Winwood, Charlie Watts and Bill Wyman. Wolf is demonstrating the hesitation beat on slide. Apparently the stars aren't getting it. Clapton says, "Come on Wolf, play acoustic with us, so we can see what you're doing and follow you.." Wolf says, "No, man." He plays the lick again and says, "You got to stop at the top--then that D drops in."

The track segues into a full production version of the song. The stars are playing a loud, in-tune, gorgeous toned backup to Wolf's singing. But the beat is still ironed out, and their riff just rolls on over and over with no variation. They're not as square as they were in the rehearsal, but they apparently never did learn to "stop at the top," nor to flex the beat a little from one phrase to the next.

They seem to have thought it was funny enough to put it all on the disc. Or maybe they thought they had nailed it, after getting a bit less square?

The rock guys did a great job, but they just didn't have that snaky swing, that speaking rhythm. To me there's a line from the talking drums of West Africa to the blues beat. The blues didn't keep the virtuosic complexity of the Cuban rumberos, but the blues beat still talks.

Really nice of the rockers to get together and make some money for Wolf, and to do such a professional job of it. They're great musicians.

RNJ



mark indigo -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 8:31:27)

quote:

I do think it's possible for a guitarist not born in Spain to come up with something that could have an influence on Spanish players, but I think he may have to establish himself within the flamenco community or culture in Spain for his innovations to be felt in the Spanish flamenco community.


There is a story, which I probably heard/read here on the foro somewhere that David Serva/Jones was trying to find a way to play Rondeña without changing the tuning and came up with the tonalidad of D#/Eb phrygian.
The story goes that he then showed it to Felipe Maya, who showed it to other guitarists in Madrid.
I think the earliest recordings in that key are from 1987 (Tomatito and Gerardo Nuñez), but I think Ricardo pointed out video of Niño Miguel playing in that key is earlier.



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 10:05:52)

So was Jimi flamenco?

Oi!



BarkellWH -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 13:50:03)

quote:

So was Jimi flamenco?


Hardly. But the subject of how the evolution of, and themes inherent in, the Blues mirrors those of flamenco in many respects, even though they are two different genres. The discussion, as you may have noted, evolved into performers of "white" blues. Never can tell what direction threads will take on the Foro. that's what makes it so interesting.

Bill



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 14:02:46)

I wish Jimi had recorded a bit more blues. He had a nice touch for the style.

Well, there's a lot of things I wish Jimi had done (and not done).



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 15:27:53)

So the conclusion of this thread:

Subject: What is flamenco today?

Answer: To boring to talk about. Lets talk about The blues and yodling cowboys instead. [sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]



Brendan -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 16:39:38)

No but some flamencos dug Jimi

https://youtu.be/AQKTuTuNRGU



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 21:52:54)

If I wanted to talk about the blues this is not the forum I would come to

This thread was interesting for the first 15 posts or so and then it devolved

Thank you for the hijacking...oi!



BarkellWH -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 21:54:35)

...and some Blues enthusiasts dig La Nina de los Peines and Santiago Donday.

Bill



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 22:00:18)

I thought it was the kids that have ADD Or are there a lot of kids on this form?

Not that there's anything wrong with being a kid



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 22:00:52)

Thanks for the opinion, Mr 18 posts.



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 23 2015 22:02:47)

20



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 24 2015 6:51:31)

I dont think people with 10000 posts should be considered more important than those with 1.
What should matter is what is written.

And that was todays burb from Mr. Moral. [8|]



Ricardo -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 24 2015 11:56:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I do think it's possible for a guitarist not born in Spain to come up with something that could have an influence on Spanish players, but I think he may have to establish himself within the flamenco community or culture in Spain for his innovations to be felt in the Spanish flamenco community.


There is a story, which I probably heard/read here on the foro somewhere that David Serva/Jones was trying to find a way to play Rondeña without changing the tuning and came up with the tonalidad of D#/Eb phrygian.
The story goes that he then showed it to Felipe Maya, who showed it to other guitarists in Madrid.
I think the earliest recordings in that key are from 1987 (Tomatito and Gerardo Nuñez), but I think Ricardo pointed out video of Niño Miguel playing in that key is earlier.


That was the story...but then I found the Rumba of Niño Miguel in the late 70's and he plays rumba in D# and a fandango in C# among other interesting things.



mark indigo -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 24 2015 12:40:22)

quote:

That was the story...but then I found the Rumba of Niño Miguel in the late 70's and he plays rumba in D# and a fandango in C# among other interesting things.


I don't know the source or reliability of that story - if it was true I would guess it would have been sometime in the 70's, maybe early 70's, so could be before those Niño Miguel vids.... that story also fits (sort of) with how there are a few libre intro's in D#/Eb - Manolo Franco and Enrique de Melchor both have libre intros to bulerías on Encunetro vids, Gerardo has that long tremelo in Solea por Bulerías (in 3 time, so could be used in or come from libre form) on Encuentro, and Vicente intros Granaina in D#/Eb.
This is all just speculation I know.

as for C#, Manolo Sanlucar recorded C# Granaina in early 70's, and dedicated it to Alberto Velez, who composed earlier C# Granaina.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 24 2015 16:19:49)

It's generally considered bad form for someone with absolutely no stake, who has contributed nothing, to come into a decade-old forum and opine as how it should be run. I say this as someone having only half your post count, so take it with a grain of salt. Perhaps we can now return to our flamenco or not programming.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 24 2015 21:53:59)

I thought people with far greater foro participation than mine had given very informative answers. They include people who make their living from flamenco or allied crafts, and people who live, or have lived in Spain. If I have interfered with the further exchange of knowledge by indulging my frequent tendency to pursue side tracks from the subject, then all of you have my apology.

RNJ



BarkellWH -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 24 2015 23:50:09)

Richard, there is no need for an apology. There were a couple of references (such as Simon's) to the affinity Blues have with flamenco before you, (or Miguel and I) contributed. Apparently, there are a few on the Foro who think topics should be rigidly "stove-piped" and should not evolve into other areas, circling back around to the original topic and thus bringing a wider perspective to the issue under discussion. I suppose someone who just joined the Foro on July 16, 2015 can be forgiven for being unaware of the long history of such verbal peregrinations on the Foro.

Bill



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 25 2015 1:47:36)

if verbal peregrinations do indeed circle back around to the original topic then i don't have a problem with a bit of wandering

it's just that my experience on many other forums in the past 15+ years says otherwise and this thread has gone way off

i'm open, but i'm really here for the flamenco

apology accepted Richard

cheers!



DavRom -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 25 2015 1:50:42)

that's 22 posts since July 16, 2015

is this a contest? what's the prize?



Ricardo -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 25 2015 3:15:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

That was the story...but then I found the Rumba of Niño Miguel in the late 70's and he plays rumba in D# and a fandango in C# among other interesting things.


I don't know the source or reliability of that story - if it was true I would guess it would have been sometime in the 70's, maybe early 70's, so could be before those Niño Miguel vids.... that story also fits (sort of) with how there are a few libre intro's in D#/Eb - Manolo Franco and Enrique de Melchor both have libre intros to bulerías on Encunetro vids, Gerardo has that long tremelo in Solea por Bulerías (in 3 time, so could be used in or come from libre form) on Encuentro, and Vicente intros Granaina in D#/Eb.
This is all just speculation I know.

as for C#, Manolo Sanlucar recorded C# Granaina in early 70's, and dedicated it to Alberto Velez, who composed earlier C# Granaina.


About serva...no from others I talked to it would have to be late 80's or something, Niño Miguel was years before...including libre intro:

http://youtu.be/f1buJDTVHcc



mark indigo -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 25 2015 10:12:36)

quote:

About serva...no from others I talked to it would have to be late 80's or something, Niño Miguel was years before...including libre intro:


So the story that it came from Serva can't be true.... unless it was just that sometime in the late 80's he was trying to create a Rondeña in D#, not that he invented the use of that key....?

Such a shame Niño Miguel went off the rails/lost the plot as he was coming up with things like that - previously I had heard that Tomatito started using C# for a compás palos, I think it was accompanying Enrique Morente in Fandangos with Enrique de Melchor early 80's, makes sense if he got use of C# a compás and D# from his uncle!



estebanana -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 25 2015 14:23:29)

The story of David Serva coming up with the thing in E Flat is true, he told me himself. It was probably in the late 70's very early 80s when he showed it to other Madrid guitarists while hanging out after working. It apparently spread though the community of guitarists and soon everyone had some version of it.

That is to say that other players could have concurrently came up with similar ideas and recorded them, earlier or later. But at the time David said no one in Madrid was really playing in those keys and after he made that thing up it kind of took off in popularity in his circles and somewhat beyond.

Around 2000 I was sitting with David and he was playing that E Flat thing and Carlos Heredia heard him. Carlos came over and nudged David to give him the guitar and gave David his ( super charged) version of the same thing. David said, Huh, I came up that that thing back in the day. It was an interesting moment.



JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 25 2015 16:36:46)

Interesting and curious at the same time this whole thing about who 'came up' with playing in such and such a key.
Surely given that things are in phrygian mode, it is just a matter of working out some voicings etc if you know your way around the guitar. Basically all of the ones that have lots of open strings are most popular.
Cañizares is the real experimenter in my opinion. He is the only one (to my knowledge) with something in Bb Phrygian and he also has things in C Phrygian & G Phrygian. They don't fall under the fingers easily but there are a few interesting voicings to be had even though the amount of open strings is minimal



estebanana -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 26 2015 0:16:29)

quote:

Interesting and curious at the same time this whole thing about who 'came up' with playing in such and such a key.
Surely given that things are in phrygian mode, it is just a matter of working out some voicings etc if you know your way around the guitar. Basically all of the ones that have lots of open strings are most popular.
Cañizares is the real experimenter in my opinion. He is the only one (to my knowledge) with something in Bb Phrygian and he also has things in C Phrygian & G Phrygian. They don't fall under the fingers easily but there are a few interesting voicings to be had even though the amount of open strings is minimal


I think many people came up with that approach and probably there was simultaneous invention and experimentation. But before You tube this stuff ( haha) spread more slowly and the stories of who made what when are not all in a row. Nor does it matter.

I think the thing to remember is that most guitar players were probably more conservative and did not stretch out into those keys and stayed in the pocket of the traditional keys. Then there was a groundswell of activity in those keys by high level players who recorded and then it was ok to break out of the regular keys.

Not to go against Ricardo, but it's also logical to think that just because one person recorded it first does not mean they pioneered ( a bold word choice) working with a palo in a mostly unused Phrygian key. As I understand it there have always been good guitar players who did not have chances to record who were paying what ever was currently a trend in the city. So the chances that a way of going after a palo in a funny key could have been in the air on the scene, but it took someone with a recording contract or a recording date to set it down as a track.

I think it does not really matter as John said about splitting hair over who did what first. There must have been players messing around with alternate keys, but maybe they did or did now know about each there depending on where they lived.

I can imagine there was a guy in Jerez who came up with alternate keys a long time ago and then someone said to them either go to Madrid and play that way or put the cejilla on 3 and play por medio for me and stop goofing off in those weird keys.
[:D]

Maybe in the early 70's or 1960's? 50's?



Ricardo -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 26 2015 6:18:23)

As an explorer of music, I have to go with my eyes and ears. The thing that exists today...I am not seeing/hearing anything remotely like that in the old toque of Mr. Serba. The thing I just linked to of N. Miguel, follows right in line with where it's at today, starting from the earliest audio recordings of it in 1987...perhaps several years after the video performance. For the record, N. Miguel had not recorded this far as I know, but certainly had other innovative ideas that seem to point more toward what we are talking about interms of evolution (Rondeña Buleria for example in 1976!). I am all for the story if it be true, and yes of course the audio and video available is the tip of a vast iceburg...but until other evidence appears it's grain of salt for me.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 26 2015 8:55:56)

quote:

It's generally considered bad form for someone with absolutely no stake, who has contributed nothing, to come into a decade-old forum and opine as how it should be run. I say this as someone having only half your post count, so take it with a grain of salt. Perhaps we can now return to our flamenco or not programming.


Miguel, I did not find the poster of this thread was affending anyone. But you offended him with putting hime off because he had few posts. I dont think anyone likes that.
In the end, its his thread and he was asking about something that it looks like everyone has forgotten. Because this is about blues and weird chords in flamenco guitar and not about the original topic..

If I was Admin (and very good I´m not[:D]) I would close this thread or tell people to get back on track. And please allow new members a bit of space. If not we will just end up being a inbred crowd of grumpy old farts.



estebanana -> RE: What is flamenco today? (Sep. 26 2015 10:00:36)

Ricardo, I doubt David ever recorded it, but he teaches it to his students if they are interested. I have a friend who knows the piece, it's not a rumba.



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