Pull-off question (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Pull-off question: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=271127



Message

NenadK -> Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 1:14:57)

So I've been going through the Scott Tennant book Pumping Nylon and I'm find his advice on pull-offs quite strange and contrary to what I've been doing for a very long time. He says that it is incorrect to pull the finger away from the fretboard but that instead we should pull down into the adjacent string.

While his approach seems easier to me I have actively worked on pulling away from the fretboard knowing that I may be in a situation where I'm required to pull off a string while the adjacent higher string is supposed to continue ringing. So if I am doing pull offs on the D string and want the G to continue ringing I can't rest my finger on the G.

I'm wondering what some of our experienced foro members do in this situation. Should I be retraining myself? I'm willing to do so if it is better in the long run but then should I do in the situation I described? [&:]

Any help is appreciated!

Nenad K.



rombsix -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 2:23:37)

I think the crux is that you don't pull-off just by lifting your finger up, off of the string, but rather you actually pull it a bit towards the adjacent string. However, I think the key here is the DEGREE of how much you do so. If you do so a lot, then your finger will rest on the adjacent string & mute it if you want that adjacent string to actually continue ringing. If not, then you can exaggerate the movement to the point of resting the finger on the adjacent string. With practice, I imagine you should be able to get a good volume with the pull-off using a tugging towards the adjacent string but not so much so as to contact the adjacent string & mute it if that is not something you want happening. Makes sense? [:D]



BarkellWH -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 17:10:29)

quote:

He says that it is incorrect to pull the finger away from the fretboard but that instead we should pull down into the adjacent string.


He is wrong. You have been doing it correctly. A pull-off, accomplished correctly, has the finger pulling away from the fretboard. To pull the string down toward the adjacent string and release it defeats the purpose of the pull-off in the first place, which is to achieve a more nuanced, subtle sound. Using his method, one might as well pluck it with the right hand, as it is essentially plucked with the left hand the way he describes it.

A pull-off is best accomplished by pulling away quickly from the fretboard. The resulting ring will be nuanced and subtle, yet loud enough to accomplish its purpose. His method may appear easier, but the easiest method is not always the best. In his case, he sacrifices a beautiful technique for the sake of ease. Not a good trade-off.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 17:17:18)

In fact you are wrong. Pulling away from the string perpendicular to the fretboard sounds like a big... nothing.

The proper technique involves that lateral movement to make the string sound without being plucked.



BarkellWH -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 17:26:16)

quote:

Pulling away from the string perpendicular to the fretboard sounds like a big... nothing. The proper technique involves that lateral movement to make the string sound without being plucked.


If it sounds like "a big...nothing," when you do it, you obviously are doing it wrong. The lateral movement makes the string sound as if it were plucked, thus defeating the purpose of the pull-off in the first place. Done correctly, the pull-off (pulling off the string quickly perpendicular to the fretboard) creates the nuanced, subtle ring I mentioned above. The key is to pull off the string quickly.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 17:32:23)

quote:

Done correctly, the pull-off (pulling off the string quickly perpendicular to the fretboard) creates the nuanced, subtle ring I mentioned above.


No, it doesn't.. unless you have glue on your fingers.

Maybe you're referring to barely audible ghost notes, the OP is talking about pull offs.



BarkellWH -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 17:40:35)

quote:

No, it doesn't.. unless you have glue on your fingers. Maybe you're referring to barely audible ghost notes, the OP is talking about pull offs.


Obviously it doesn't work for you. Carry on as you are. Only the most discerning ears will note the difference. For the average listener it probably won't matter.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 17:46:57)

quote:

Obviously it doesn't work for you.


It's physically impossible unless there's addhesive on your fingers.. or maybe your talking about barely audible pull offs where the second note is dead from the start, I guess that's not the subject here... but it might be.



Bliblablub -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 18:13:04)

On the violin you would pull off perpendicular to the fretboard since you have the bow to vibrate the string. On the guitar it indeed would result into nothing as someone said.



Leñador -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 20:34:45)

Ramz got this, little of both, down and out....but not too far out, gotta stay close to the fretboard.....



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 21:28:46)

You have to be careful with the pull off technique... if not done properly, you might get into trouble.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



jg7238 -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 21:53:13)

Here is a good exercise for pull offs and hammer-ons.....

I know it has nothing to do with this thread but could be helpful...





rombsix -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 22:08:54)

quote:

Here is a good exercise for pull offs and hammer-ons.....

I know it has nothing to do with this thread but could be helpful...


[:D][8D]



rombsix -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 22:24:45)

quote:

He is wrong. You have been doing it correctly. A pull-off, accomplished correctly, has the finger pulling away from the fretboard. To pull the string down toward the adjacent string and release it defeats the purpose of the pull-off in the first place, which is to achieve a more nuanced, subtle sound. Using his method, one might as well pluck it with the right hand, as it is essentially plucked with the left hand the way he describes it.

A pull-off is best accomplished by pulling away quickly from the fretboard. The resulting ring will be nuanced and subtle, yet loud enough to accomplish its purpose. His method may appear easier, but the easiest method is not always the best. In his case, he sacrifices a beautiful technique for the sake of ease. Not a good trade-off.

Bill


Hey Bill - check the below videos out...

- watch from 1:00 to 1:10

- watch from 0:45 to 0:55

- watch from 2:00 to 2:40

- watch from 0:25 to 0:40

- watch from 5:14 to 6:50 (for NenadK - see 6:15 - you're not the only one having the problem you mentioned; you are asking about a harder bit, where you want the adjacent string to actually continue ringing from a part of the music before the pull-off is executed. If that is not the case, and you are having trouble just preventing your pull-off left hand finger from hitting a silent adjacent string & making it sound in error, then you can apply the technique at 6:15)

Cheers!



BarkellWH -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 22:35:14)

We are talking flamenco guitar, Ramzi, not classical. There are flamencos who accomplish the pull-off as I described it.

Bill



rombsix -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 22:55:11)

quote:

We are talking flamenco guitar, Ramzi, not classical. There are flamencos who accomplish the pull-off as I described it.

Bill


All right, how about this?



- watch 1:27 to 1:40 & look at what he does with the left hand fingers, and how the strings move closer to each other, meaning that he is not only lifting, but pulling the string to the adjacent string

- watch 0:30 to 0:40

- watch 2:20 to 2:40

- watch from 5:13 to 5:22



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 25 2015 23:37:39)

quote:

We are talking flamenco guitar, Ramzi, not classical. There are flamencos who accomplish the pull-off as I described it.


Although it may seem to you that it is being done the way you describe it, if you think about it for a moment you'll understand that it isn't possible.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:07:05)

Almost anything can be effective when done well and in the service of the music. All sorts of musicians work on left hand tone production and a strong 'rest stroke' pull off is the basis of reliable legato for all acoustic guitarists.

But a left hand finger if lifted perpendicularly and very cleanly may not damp the string sufficiently to kill the note so if there is enough energy in the string already this can lead to a pleasing result at times.

As with all techniques you want to master both extremes so that you can choose from the full range of sounds and legato effects that they offer with control and a range of dynamics.

D.



BarkellWH -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:12:35)

quote:

Although it may seem to you that it is being done the way you describe it, if you think about it for a moment you'll understand that it isn't possible.


Except that I do it that way, and my guitar teacher Paco de Malaga does it that way and taught me to do it. In line with your cited quote above, perhaps we have accomplished the impossible.

Oh, and by the way, you will recall that Nenad K, who started this thread, said he had been doing it for a long time. Once again, according to your cited quote above, Nenad K must be accomplishing the impossible as well.

Bill



guitarbuddha -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:15:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

In line with your cited quote above, perhaps we have accomplished the impossible.

Bill


Or maybe it's like what I just said.

' a left hand finger if lifted perpendicularly and very cleanly may not damp the string sufficiently to kill the note so if there is enough energy in the string already this can lead to a pleasing result at times. '



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:22:58)

quote:

But a left hand finger if lifted perpendicularly and very cleanly may not damp the string sufficiently to kill the note so if there is enough energy in the string already this can lead to a pleasing result at times.


In this context, the perpendicular lift by itself isn't a pull off. That's like saying "here's my picado with free stroke". You can do it, but what's the point in using the same name for different things?



BarkellWH -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:25:46)

quote:

' a left hand finger if lifted perpendicularly and very cleanly may not damp the string sufficiently to kill the note so if there is enough energy in the string already this can lead to a pleasing result at times. '


If I understand you correctly, David, I think you may be stating in another way what I meant in my initial response to Nenad K when I wrote that pulling off perpendicular to the fretboard creates a more nuanced, subtle sound.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:31:15)

This thread already has plenty of evidence from different sources on the internet about what's considered a pull off.

I will add the subject of this topic:

http://youtu.be/YTZS7XHhuQA?t=11m


You can name it whatever you want, I prefer to make a distinction like the one you can see on the video.



rombsix -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:33:48)

Bill, just because your teacher said it should be done in a certain way, and you learned it that way from him, that does not mean it is the most effective way of doing it. For the pull-off to sound loud enough to keep up with notes before it and after it, you have to do some degree of moving the string with the left hand finger to the adjacent string. The only way your method will work is if the string had already been set in motion by the right hand, and then you lift your left hand finger perpendicularly off the string, and the energy that was created before you did that (by the right hand) will then fuel the sound. However, if you want to do trills (that at times can even start the sound with the left hand & not use any right hand energy) or continuous slurs like in taranta, you will not be able to maintain the sound for more than a couple of repetitions, and then the energy dissipates if you are purely lifting the finger off perpendicularly. You can only generate so much by lifting the finger 100% perpendicularly off the string. I am sure that if you are doing it "your way" or "Paco de Malaga's" way, and you can sustain the sound for many repetitions, then you are going back to what I described initially: we are not talking all-or-nothing / black-or-white here, but rather we can do the lifting of the finger 80% or 50% perpendicularly, and with some percentage towards the adjacent string. In doing so, you will get a louder sound (than the 100% purely perpendicular method) that can be repeated & sustained without further touching the string with your right hand, and you can also try to avoid contact with the adjacent string, thereby not muting it if the purpose is for it to have continued ringing from a previous part of the music.

You like to be persistent & confident with what you say, and that is great as it shows determination & strong character. It is also helpful to keep an open mind given all of the videos I have shown you above of multiple people (including very respectable flamenco guitarists) explaining how the pull-off is done (with moving the string via the left hand finger towards the adjacent string). Leaving some room for doubt in one's beliefs is a healthy approach to avoid potential over-self-confidence that can at times disallow one from seeing different, perhaps useful points of view.

Olé! [:)]



guitarbuddha -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:54:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

, but what's the point in using the same name for different things?



Because in the actual universe there are few things which are exactly the same. Take for example the colour red. Red can be used to describe a wide range of visual phenomenon which are caused be a huge range of pigments and radiation sources all of which have different frequencies.

But red is a useful label. Most people know that it covers a range of things. Insistence to the contrary becomes ridiculous as it persists.


'If I understand you correctly, David, I think you may be stating in another way what I meant in my initial response to Nenad K when I wrote that pulling off perpendicular to the fretboard creates a more nuanced, subtle sound.' (from Bill)


Yeah Bill. But honestly no pro uses that exclusively. I wouldn't say it was a 'more nuanced and subtle sound' in every occasion but sometimes it is very appropriate where a brusque LH pluck would be ugly. But at other times it will lead to merely killing the line.



D.



BarkellWH -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 0:54:14)

quote:

Leaving some room for doubt in one's beliefs is a healthy approach to avoid potential over-self-confidence that can at times disallow one from seeing different, perhaps useful points of view.


Agreed, Ramzi, such as calling something "impossible" when it clearly is not. (That, of course, was not aimed at you.) But your point is well-taken.

Bill



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 1:10:02)

quote:

Agreed, Ramzi, such as calling something "impossible" when it clearly is not. (That, of course, was not aimed at you.)


Wait...

You started by saying Scott Tennant is wrong and that your way is the best way. All I've tried to show you is that you can't do the kind of pull off that was actually being mentioned with your technique. That's what I called impossible, and it is.


If your task is to paint some blood on an actor's face and all you bring is a can of "infra red ink", maybe you missed the context... but yeah, it's red so you're right.. whatever.



BarkellWH -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 1:17:21)

quote:

All I've tried to show you is that you can't do the kind of pull off that was actually being mentioned with your technique. That's what I called impossible, and it is.


If your task is to paint some blood on an actor's face and all you bring is a can of "infra red ink", maybe you missed the context... but yeah, it's red so you're right.. whatever.


It is most certainly a pull-off, and it is not impossible. If you wish to create your own set of definitions, be my guest. Pulling off perpendicular to the fretboard is used all the time, whether the string is struck first with the right hand and the left hand pulls off, or whether running a ligado with the left hand hammering on and pulling off. It is done all the time.

Regarding your disquisition on "red," I trust it is directed at David, as I have mentioned nothing regarding the color red.

Bill



guitarbuddha -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 1:34:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins


If your task is to paint some blood on an actor's face and all you bring is a can of "infra red ink", maybe you missed the context... but yeah, it's red so you're right.. whatever.


And the OP's question.

'So I've been going through the Scott Tennant book Pumping Nylon and I'm find his advice on pull-offs quite strange and contrary to what I've been doing for a very long time. He says that it is incorrect to pull the finger away from the fretboard but that instead we should pull down into the adjacent string.

While his approach seems easier to me I have actively worked on pulling away from the fretboard knowing that I may be in a situation where I'm required to pull off a string while the adjacent higher string is supposed to continue ringing. So if I am doing pull offs on the D string and want the G to continue ringing I can't rest my finger on the G.

I'm wondering what some of our experienced foro members do in this situation. Should I be retraining myself? I'm willing to do so if it is better in the long run but then should I do in the situation I described? '


I find on reflection that I have not been trying to move the goalposts to my own advantage.

D.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Pull-off question (Jan. 26 2015 1:38:02)

Having the string struck first is the same as coming out of hammer on. Either one comes from a string already in motion.. but Iam not even going to discuss that.


You just want to be right, it was never about sharing useful information to help clear up things to the original poster.


You win! [sm=lol.gif]



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET