Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Full Version)

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ZaidRockso -> Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 17:52:52)

Just curious, what makes flamenco guitars expensive? Looking at salvador guitars, Manuel reyes, Hermanos, Manuel Andalid , the prices are really steep, i'm in no way saying that they're not worth the buck, but just wondering what makes them so expensive compared to electric guitars? I have an Ibanez Japanese custom i got for roughly 3k , and it's truly a masterpiece, never heard nicer sustain, and i'm not aware of many electric guitars that are more expensive than it. With classical , flamenco guitars, the cheapest " Decent / concert " guitar is at 3k, while for electric , probably the most expensive is at 3k.

Thanks



Morante -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 18:21:18)

quote:

probably the most expensive is at 3k.


PRS have an electric at 9,700 euros[:)] Or look at Zemaitis, or Gretsch White Falcon or Fender Custom shop. A hand made Fender costs more than most handmade flamencos,

Or ask a classical player how much he had to pay for his Bass or his violin, or even his bow.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 18:21:53)

They are both called "guitar" and share some common characteristics but the way they produce sound is totally different.

Besides this there are other factors, mainly the usual marketing stuff, speculation and bla bla bla.



por medio -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 19:00:18)

They are not expensive at all. As Morante said, compare them to classical instruments (although I must admit some string instruments really do push the boundaries a bit).



ZaidRockso -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 19:07:02)

Alright, if that's the case, like i said, in the electric world, a 1,000$ guitar does wonders, i have an LTD H1001, which was for roughly 800$ , and it plays as good as many other much more expensive guitars . Where can i find " concert " level flamenco guitars that weren't hand built but actually play wonderful ? If someone could name a few good ones that would be great, and particular models , not just " cordoba " or manuel rodrigues , etc. I can't see myself affording a 3000-4000$ guitar anytime in the near future.



jmb -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 19:37:55)

Totally agree. Good violin prices(new), for example, are a scandal.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 19:53:36)

If it's expensive or not, that's all relative.

Anyways, I think all these answers are pretty useless. It's like saying "5 Lamborghini's would cost even more than a guitar so, guitars aren't expensive".


If one has to gather a few months of salary to pay for an instrument, I think it's fair to consider it expensive.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 20:21:57)

There seems to be general agreement that luthier made flamenco guitars are better than mass produced ones. This appears to be less so for electrics.

A normal rate of production for an individual luthier is somewhere around 12 guitars per year. At $3,000 per guitar, this is $36,000 per year. Deducting the cost of materials and supplies, the luthier makes somewhere around $30,000 per year. This is likely to be less than what the average worker in a guitar "factory" operation makes.

The individual luthier's pay rises above subsistence level only if he becomes famous. Becoming famous involves not only producing excellent guitars, but having the good luck of having an instrument in the hands of a famous player. Famous players are rarer than luthiers, and luck plays a big part in the process.

The "factory" guitar price profits from the economy of mass production. The drawback is that each piece of wood is different. The individual luthier can take this into account. Since mass produced guitars are all made to the same dimensions, the design usually tends toward thicker tops to guard against mechanical failure for the weakest pieces of wood used. This has a poor effect on the sound.

Once an individual luthier becomes famous, factors other than the quality of his instruments come into play in determining the price.

RNJ



Sr. Martins -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 20:24:49)

..adding to what I've already said, both kinds of guitars need to have their strings plucked to make a sound.

That's where similarities end.



tri7/5 -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 20:42:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

Just curious, what makes flamenco guitars expensive? Looking at salvador guitars, Manuel reyes, Hermanos, Manuel Andalid , the prices are really steep, i'm in no way saying that they're not worth the buck, but just wondering what makes them so expensive compared to electric guitars? I have an Ibanez Japanese custom i got for roughly 3k , and it's truly a masterpiece, never heard nicer sustain, and i'm not aware of many electric guitars that are more expensive than it. With classical , flamenco guitars, the cheapest " Decent / concert " guitar is at 3k, while for electric , probably the most expensive is at 3k.

Thanks


You need to take a look around the electric world a bit outside of LTD and Ibanez. There are alot, ALOT of electric guitars north of 3k.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 20:54:27)

Iam pretty sure this was roughly about "why good acoustic guitars are much more expensive than a comparable electric" instead of "are there any very expensive instruments?"


You can buy/put togheter a confortable & good sounding electric from a couple of hundred dollars/euros wtv.

That seems to be an almost impossible task when it comes to acoustic instruments.



ZaidRockso -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 20:55:40)

tri7 that's very true, but, my point was, that the high tier ibanez and Esp's are on the top of the top, others may be more expensive, but that doesn't make the latter worse, but i see what you guys are saying, can any of you recommend trusted luthiers, or websites please ? I guess the saving has to start.



n85ae -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 22:58:31)

Most of the luthiers who post here regularly would be a good place to look. It
is where I would buy a guitar if I was in the market. Already having three guitars,
and unless something happens to my wife's ideas about budget it's three for a
long time to come as well ...

Read through the luthier section a bit, you should get an idea who you want
to talk to.

Jeff



rombsix -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 23:12:51)

quote:

I guess the saving has to start.


Sell all your non-flamenco guitars. That way you can commit to flamenco & you'll get some more money. [8D][:D]



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 9 2014 23:38:43)

quote:

Looking at salvador guitars, Manuel reyes,


Well for flamenco you really need a great guitar like a Reyes, I would say go to your bank and see if you can secure a 60 month loan for the $12-35k you will need.

Wait a minute...now you're telling me there are luthiers out there who survive on less annual income than the average car mechanic in order to lovingly construct you a fantastic flamenco guitar for $3000-4000??? ($2800 for my 2A, nudge nudge) They'd be crazy to be making guitars for so cheap! [:D]



Sr. Martins -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 0:16:56)

quote:

just wondering what makes them so expensive compared to electric guitars?


This thread has to be the most blatant demonstration of users talking about "their thing" while just barely touching what the original question was. It happens a lot here but this time you're all going insane lol



ZaidRockso -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 0:40:50)

Thanks for your advice guys! i will definitely check the luthiers here and will listen to clips and decide , and ramzi that's already part of the plan , i've put my amp and cab on our local ebay thing :(! And Andy, i wasn't aware that a single guitar takes that long, there are many definitions to hand-made, talking electric anyways, i've read on many " handmade " guitars were actually almost exclusively factory built , and the " fine tweaking " was what they labelled as handmade.

Thanks guys! always many helpful people here



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 0:55:15)

I don’t think anyone’s yet mentioned the ever-spiralling price of good wood.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 7:56:29)

quote:

Totally agree. Good violin prices(new), for example, are a scandal.


That makes me curious. How much is that? You can get new chineese violins for a bit more than a 1000,-€
Handmade new violins from wellknown builders can be found for 4000,-€ and up.
The first that I sold, was 2000,-€ and the next will be more expensive.

Please remember that building a violin is VERY labour intensive unlees you have a full CNC setup and make production instruments.

As Morante said, Flamenco (and classical) guitars are very cheap. Go to your local symphony orchestra and ask a "simple" member how much they payed for their instrument, being violin, cello, flute, trumpet etc.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 15:04:22)

that's all true, but there's a lot more demand for classical music, there are opportunities to receive grants and other kinds of help if you're with a good school or orchestra; there's none of that in flamenco - for me it's almost impossible to get a really good instrument, it'd cost what I earn in a whole year...and while working for that money, there's very little time left to actually improve as a musician, let alone make a career of it...catch 22...



Morante -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 15:20:25)

quote:

for me it's almost impossible to get a really good instrument, it'd cost what I earn in a whole year...and while working for that money, there's very little time left to actually improve as a musician, let alone make a career of it...catch 22...


This is a rather sad commentary: improving as a musician has nothing to do with the quality of instrument you can buy. It is inside. Animate!

One of the best jazz guitarists I know plays a Squier Telecaster (300 euros).

The most flamenco guitarist in Cádiz, who is a drug addict, is in constant demand in spite of being unreliable: every good guitar which has come his way was sold, for obvious reasons. His present guitar is mediocre as usual, but he keeps playing professionally and is greatly appreciated (if not trusted).

You can start your career with a poor quality instrument and improve it as you go.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 16:50:31)

it's only realistic - once you're in a full time job, start a family etc, you can't dedicate as much time to improve as you once could...I have a full time job, I play in 3 bands and accompany several dancers; yet I know how the (otherwise decent) guitar I own limits me and I could really use an instrument with better tonal qualities and better left hand playability...of course you can point out cases, but I do feel that a good instrument will enhance your abilities - even if it's only placebo...



flyhere -> [Deleted] (Nov. 10 2014 17:39:25)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 21 2015 23:05:47



Mark2 -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 18:19:06)

A fellow I know has a jazz guitar that cost over 30k. Compared to that, flamenco guitars are cheap. Another guy I played with has a violin bow that he paid 15k for. You can get one of the top guys in the world to build you a flamenco guitar for 8-10k. As far as electrics, I think there is a huge difference between a PRS that costs 3k and a Mexican strat, or even a 1k Ibanez, but I could be wrong about the Ibanez.



Ricardo -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 19:33:45)

The answer to the original question is "the market". But considering Ibanez are junk, I digress. But some fun trivia, Ibañez was orginally a spanish guitar company and made classical and flamenco guitars decades ago before the japanese took over and got into the rock star thing.



jmb -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 19:57:18)

Some guitarreros as Josè Romero does not make more than 12 guitars per year and I hear Vicente Carrillo in an interview saying that he had counted as curiosity (sic) more than 1.000 craftwork operations per guitar. Considering other issues in some guitars as dependece on high quality selected wood whose trading could be banned or even a better marketing (that is totally fair as in any business)... I don't know. I have always considered good clasical instruments as uniques and exclusives artworks. And people pay larger amounts for a canvax with three brush strokes.

Just a question, as a complete ignorant on this topoic and as curiosity ... Are solid body electric guitars so dependant on wood craftwork or a good winding made by an accurate machine is more important?



tri7/5 -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 20:03:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

A fellow I know has a jazz guitar that cost over 30k.


Is it a Ken Parker?



Mark2 -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 10 2014 20:42:51)

I'm not sure, but his father is a bizillionare so he didn't have to save his gig money to get it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

A fellow I know has a jazz guitar that cost over 30k.


Is it a Ken Parker?



estebanana -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 11 2014 0:10:38)

quote:

Totally agree. Good violin prices(new), for example, are a scandal.

__________________


A scandal seems a bit much. Making a violin is pretty difficult. Making a good concert level violin is very very difficult and takes lot of time.

Instrument makers who work by hand should get paid a living wage.

Electric guitars are cheaper because they can be templated and mass produced with better results than acoustic guitars, in general.



estebanana -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 11 2014 0:19:00)

quote:

I paid a bit over $1000 each for the 2 violin bows for my son, and they don't even compare relatively to the hours of labor of a violin-maker or a guitar-maker. It's just a stick of wood with some horse hair


Bow making is really, really difficult to make top tier bows. It takes a long time. A great violin also needs a great bow.

But you probably know that. That little stick is really hard to plane to that perfect point of balance, flexibility and stiffness. It's magic to have a great bow, and tragic to have a dud.



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