RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Full Version)

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Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 11 2014 7:32:45)

quote:

I know how the (otherwise decent) guitar I own limits me and I could really use an instrument with better tonal qualities and better left hand playability...of course you can point out cases, but I do feel that a good instrument will enhance your abilities


I agree. You have a playing level, where you would take really good advantage of a top instrument. Something that fits you and your style, pushes you a bit forward and limits you the least possible.
The answers that a good instrument gives are uncomparable to what a lower end instrument gives.




rojarosguitar -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 11 2014 7:47:28)

Whether something is expensive or not is of course relative to your income... In terms of individually handbuilt instruments classical and flamenco guitars belong to the cheapest instruments that can be found.

A halfways decent hand made cello, violin or flute (which would be considered just enough to enter a conservatory) would be much more expensive than a flamenca built by the most expensive luthiers (I'm not talking about fancy collectors items, which obey totally different market laws).

A concert grade (soloist or orchestra) luthier built cello is probabely not to be had under 20.000 Euro (especially if it is made by any of the more known luthiers.

My friend Sebastian Stenzel, a quite well known luthier, asks for his guitars around 7000 Euros. He builds around ten per year. He not only uses highest grade materials which cost moey, but has to pay taxes, has to pay rent for his workshop, electricity, etc, pay all the incurances, and if he can't work because of illness, nobody is paying him anything... In the end he has quite an average income, I think ...

So the issue is more how much you want and can spend on something rather than stating these things are expensive... If somebody is serious about playing and needs a good instrument as the basis of their living, I would call that cheap.

Imagine how much you have to spend on maschines if you set up some kind of a workshop or whatever ...




jmb -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 11 2014 8:01:38)

quote:

quote:

Totally agree. Good violin prices(new), for example, are a scandal.

__________________


A scandal seems a bit much. Making a violin is pretty difficult. Making a good concert level violin is very very difficult and takes lot of time.

Instrument makers who work by hand should get paid a living wage.

_____________________________


Of course: it's true and of course: 'scaldal' word was just an hyperbole. [;)]




flyhere -> [Deleted] (Nov. 11 2014 20:58:35)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 21 2015 23:05:30




Andy Culpepper -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 11 2014 22:26:10)

quote:

The answers that a good instrument gives are uncomparable to what a lower end instrument gives.


I completely agree with this. A really good guitar can actually give you TONS of inspiration.




sig -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 17 2014 15:31:37)

Last year, here in the MKE area there was a Stradivarius stolen from the concert master of the MSO. He was carrying it to a recital when a couple of knuckleheads tazer'd him and took the violin. I was told by an informed source that the indivduals pitched the case along with the 2 bows. I was also told the bows were worth approx $150K! I guess the bows do make a diff :))
Sig--




flyhere -> [Deleted] (Nov. 17 2014 20:58:43)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 21 2015 23:05:04




rletson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 2:39:21)

Price reflects both demand and the cost of production. I don't have specific knowledge of the latter in the flamenco field, but I do have several friends who have built steel-strings for years, and what I heard from them was that there is about 100 hours of labor in a flat-top guitar, and substantially more in an archtop. So even before we get to cost of materials and overhead, you can see that a $3000 single-builder guitar pays the luthier $30/hour. This is why a $3000 flat-top is quite a bargain, and why so many builders have spouses with straight jobs (preferably with medical benefits) and/or also do repair and restoration work to keep the lights on. (And why the going price for a single-builder or even small-shop flat-top from an established builder is now well north of $4000. Check, say, James Goodall's prices.)

One of my friends finally quit building, after producing sixty-some instruments over an 22-year period, because it was not economically viable. "I just wanted to make a wage," he told me. But he couldn't, even though he produced very fine instruments. I did my part--I own two.

As I say, I'm anything but an authority on flamenco guitars, but I have played guitar-in-general for more than fifty years, and what I think I see in this subculture is a need for instruments with very particular qualities--a much narrower range of "what works" than, say, the folk-world steel-string flat-top or even the swing-world acoustic archtop. More like what the gypsy-jazz guys look for in a Selmer-style guitar. That's a pretty small target for a builder to hit, and a relatively small market to sell into at the pro and even the serious-amateur level. I suspect those factors have a non-trivial effect on prices.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 7:43:22)

quote:

you can see that a $3000 single-builder guitar pays the luthier $30/hour.


Please!!!
When you make these fast and easy calculations, at least make it clear that guitarbuilders have expenses and not only wood.... Its not an office job. You have to pay wood, workshop, electricity, tools, contribute to social welfare etc. And besides building the instrument, there´s a lot of labour in keeping the business going. (contact with clients, economy, buying stuff, PR, you name it) The calculation ends up with far less than the $30/hour you mention. It actually ends up with a lousy wage.

To be honest, dont go in to this game because of money. There´s very little to be found, very little security and the furure is far from being bright. Only stupid, romantic persons like me end up being luthiers.....




Escribano -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 8:30:12)

Without a healthy waiting list, cash-flow can be very patchy. Most luthiers build to the client's spec. (which is the primary appeal of a custom product) so having a lot of finished guitars around can be more difficult to sell at at a sustainable price.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 15:23:47)

In the end its also about respecting or not an old traditional trade and craft. But there´s very little of that left when it comes to paying. Talking in high terms about wonderfull job, art, etc is easy, but when it comes to paying its another story.

I have stopped repairing factory guitars and chineese violins. If they want them fixed, they can send them to the factory or to China or let someone without knowledge crap around with it (the future)
When someone here comes with their crappy instrument to have it fixed, they praise everything untill they hear the price (which is to low). They cant accept that I want almost the same wage as they get for their work and then they get pissed of.... Thats the way things are and I´m very tired of it.
Guitarmakers and repairmen dont get discounts anywhere they have to pay the same for food, home etc.




Morante -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 15:36:32)

I worked for several years in the taller of Rafael López, doing repairs and restauration.

I remember spendiing a whole day with a guitarra de sapele, which is prone to splitting. The guitar was separated in two, both aros completely rajados.

I glued them together perfectly, glued in refuerzos, Rafael smoothed the join with the cuchillo and gave it a mano of french polish.

When the owner came, Rafael asked for 20 euros and the owner was indignado. (I would have broken the guitar again, over his head)




Escribano -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 17:23:27)

quote:

They cant accept that I want almost the same wage as they get for their work and then they get pissed of.... Thats the way things are and I´m very tired of it.


Different economy, different expectations. In Spain, there was always a local who can turn their hand to the odd job for a few Euros, but plumbers around London can earn over £100,000 (125,000 Euros) p.a. A handyman in my town, with no particular skill, charges £150 (187 Euros) a day. A plasterer is double that, in cash.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 18:05:33)

Morante, I have had a couple of these experiences as well and now I just say no to the locals. How much would a repair like the one you mention have been in the UK, USA, Germany? Hundreds of euros. Of course, its various hours of advanced and skilled labour in a specialized workshop.

The locals NEVER want to pay. They on their side dont understand why I cant live without money. Here in Spain, the REAL respect (money) for the kind of work I do is zero and my respect for those showing me that is absolutely the same.
Now, we leave each other in peace, because we know how things are. They dont bother me and I dont bother them. They can have one of the local guitar-butchers fix their stupid guitars. I dont care anymore.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 18:12:50)

quote:

there was always a local who can turn their hand to the odd job for a few Euros,


If I dont remember wrong, I think you have the same experiences with the lack of quality in these guys work. whooo, they are so brutal.
We had a few things done when we entered this house, but I soon found out I had to do things myself if I wanted it done the way I wanted.




Escribano -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 18:21:20)

Like pillars to support the corner of the whole house, but not reaching the top, so being padded with slivers of brick? Oh yeah, it was horrible and I ended up doing it all myself with an English friend. Nonetheless, their rate for slapdash work sets the expectation, even though they all end up doing it themselves, it's a crazy black market of cash, at low rates for shoddy work and no taxes declared.

I got retrospective planning permission (for some obras menores) just by buying the mayor a drink.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 22:22:42)

quote:

it's a crazy black market of cash, at low rates for shoddy work and no taxes declared.

I got retrospective planning permission (for some obras menores) just by buying the mayor a drink.


Well, we didnt apply for permissions and noone cared. Sole was Spanish, she worked in another ayuntamiento so she knew how things were. Everything here works that way. So you could have saved that drink.

A typical story from here:
We needed to have have some new electrical installations and one of Sole´s collegues husband is an electrician, so they agreed.
He came, did a lousy job and on the bill he put twice the time he had used and 3 times the amount of material.... Sole told the collegue and she got pissed off and never talked to Sole again.... How lousy can people be.....

Spain is passing through a very negative moment. Its extreme this summer and autumn.. We are having corruption scandals all the time and it includes everyone. Right wing party, left wing party, union, builders, constructors, artists and even the kings sister and her husband are deeply involved in a big story.....
There´s a new scandal every week.
It just shows how everything has funcioned untill now. I dont know if they ever will be able to make it work better....
And at the same time during these 6 - 7 years of socalled crisis, the amount of very rich people is 2 to three times higher than what it was.
Spain is a complete chaos now. Where I live I estimate that unemployment is around 50%. And the politician talk about everything is going better. Shameless bastards.




Escribano -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 19 2014 22:38:51)

Yep, but I didn't ask. He heard about it. You know what small villages are like. I ended up building an 'illegal' kitchen in a 3-storey, 5 bedroom house that never had one! No permission of course, and the new buyer was sensible enough to ignore the original plans.




jmb -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 20 2014 0:12:33)

quote:

quote:

it's a crazy black market of cash, at low rates for shoddy work and no taxes declared.

I got retrospective planning permission (for some obras menores) just by buying the mayor a drink.


Well, we didnt apply for permissions and noone cared. Sole was Spanish, she worked in another ayuntamiento so she knew how things were. Everything here works that way. So you could have saved that drink.

A typical story from here:
We needed to have have some new electrical installations and one of Sole´s collegues husband is an electrician, so they agreed.
He came, did a lousy job and on the bill he put twice the time he had used and 3 times the amount of material.... Sole told the collegue and she got pissed off and never talked to Sole again.... How lousy can people be.....

Spain is passing through a very negative moment. Its extreme this summer and autumn.. We are having corruption scandals all the time and it includes everyone. Right wing party, left wing party, union, builders, constructors, artists and even the kings sister and her husband are deeply involved in a big story.....
There´s a new scandal every week.
It just shows how everything has funcioned untill now. I dont know if they ever will be able to make it work better....
And at the same time during these 6 - 7 years of socalled crisis, the amount of very rich people is 2 to three times higher than what it was.
Spain is a complete chaos now. Where I live I estimate that unemployment is around 50%. And the politician talk about everything is going better. Shameless bastards.


Spain has been always a 'cortijo' where clan concept prevail against community concept and wiliness has been the bad part of our culture for centuries but now, in the new Europe and in the New World, it does not work properly.

People that are not self-empoyed, potitician or public worker (and therefore financially controlled) are really tired. Time are changing and things are going to change and nobody knows if it the change will be for better or for worst.




LouKat -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 20 2014 1:16:57)

quote:

Only stupid, romantic persons like me end up being luthiers.....


Well, I'm glad you became a luthier, Anders! I love my guitar (#114)




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 20 2014 7:16:53)

Thanks Loukat. Thats what makes me continue building instruments.

quote:

People that are not self-empoyed, potitician or public worker (and therefore financially controlled) are really tired. Time are changing and things are going to change and nobody knows if it the change will be for better or for worst.


Yes, I know there are strong movements, but its really a steep uphill. As you say, its been like this for centuries. Its the culture and it is in the blood. Almost everyone cheats something. Besides, the power and the money behind is very strong, so it might take a while or get uggly. Its not just a matter of changing the politicians. History has shown that they end up being corrupt as well. Its a whole mentality problem.
El puto cazique todavía está vivo en todas partes.




rletson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 22 2014 22:46:26)

Anders, I quite understand about overhead, materials, and such (it's right in the post)--remember, I got this information from several good friends who build. Perhaps I should have written, "a $3000 guitar returns a gross $30/hour before materials and overhead." And the burden of the first two paragraphs in that post is that there is indeed not a lot of money to be made.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive? (Nov. 24 2014 7:42:47)

Ye, I did read the message in your post. I just raise the signal flags when its nescessary[;)]




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