Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 5:24:08)

whenever the classical guitar debate comes up I always like to mention this guy JM gallardo del rey... saw him perform years ago and was really impressed. Great player and composer. Now he has worked up some tasty stuff with Miguel Angel Cortes:

http://youtu.be/7Odq22C-64I



gerundino63 -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 7:46:03)

Thanks Ricardo!

Very good! They play very well together on a extremely high level.
Not static, very lively and vivid. Liked it very much.

Peter



rombsix -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 12:15:37)

Olé!



Don Dionisio -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 12:31:49)

Thanks, Ricardo.
I watched a video of JM Gallardo del Rey and he said the following:
"I am a musician who plays the Spanish guitar. I don't really like to define myself
as a classical or flamenco guitarist since in my (musical) interpretations I use the
techniques of both styles. If you limit your musical training to just classical, you
are impeding the evolution of your musical development since flamenco can help
you in certain moments (and classical as well)."
He goes on to say that his first guitar teacher in Sevilla was a flamenco player whose influence he still carries with him.
Here's the video:



tele -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 12:47:56)

Great playing but I personally don't like this kind of jazzy bulerias



gj Michelob -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 13:42:39)

quote:

whenever the classical guitar debate comes up I always like to mention this guy JM gallardo del rey... saw him perform years ago and was really impressed. Great player and composer. Now he has worked up some tasty stuff with Miguel Angel Cortes:

http://youtu.be/7Odq22C-64I


Lovely.

Question: Cortes has a capo on the first fret; is his guitar's A tuned down to a G#?



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 14:03:51)

Very sophisticated sound and great counterpoint. Good stuff.



changue -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 14:26:59)



He seems like a good citizen. Interesting what he says here about Paco, (from about 1:50 in).

Changue



ToddK -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 16:45:30)

quote:

Great playing but I personally don't like this kind of jazzy bulerias


What you actually mean is, you don't like Bulerias with particular chord extensions.
The compas is there. The phrasing is there. Its all there.

Its like somebody saying they like flamenco guitar, but don't like the horrible whaling of the singer.

It's not really "Horrible whaling", they just have'nt acquired the taste, so they write it off as if it were the same as a dying cow.

That's essentially what you're doing when you write off a bulerias with expanded chord extensions.
The "jazzy" flamenco of one moment, is the "Traditional" flamenco of the next moment. Think of what they said about Paco when he was doing the same crazy stuff in the 70's.

Not criticizing you are trying to give you a hard time, just trying to hip you to
great stuff that you would really love if you gave it a chance, thats all.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 18:39:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

quote:

whenever the classical guitar debate comes up I always like to mention this guy JM gallardo del rey... saw him perform years ago and was really impressed. Great player and composer. Now he has worked up some tasty stuff with Miguel Angel Cortes:

http://youtu.be/7Odq22C-64I


Lovely.

Question: Cortes has a capo on the first fret; is his guitar's A tuned down to a G#?


No, he is tuned normal, but I think JM Gallardo is tuned weird ... my guess is FADF#BE based on his fingerings and the sound, but it is for sure in playing in F phrygian and it ends in Bb phrygian.



gj Michelob -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 5 2014 19:57:19)

quote:

o, he is tuned normal, but I think JM Gallardo is tuned weird ... my guess is FADF#BE based on his fingerings and the sound, but it is for sure in playing in F phrygian and it ends in Bb phrygian.


I see, thank you Ricardo.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 5:15:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK
The "jazzy" flamenco of one moment, is the "Traditional" flamenco of the next moment. Think of what they said about Paco when he was doing the same crazy stuff in the 70's.

Not criticizing you are trying to give you a hard time, just trying to hip you to
great stuff that you would really love if you gave it a chance, thats all.


I enjoyed the duets posted here.

My impression of the "modern" flamenco stuff with chord extensions is that harmonically it's about 60 years past its "sell by" date.

Here's why. When I was about 12 LP records of classical music came out. Under the tutelage of an adult mentor I built a little hi-fi rig and started buying classical LPs.

Beethoven was my first love. I bought the miniature scores to the symphonies and picked out some of the chords on the piano. Some of his harmony seemed pretty radical. Then I moved on to Brahms and Tchaikovsky, then Richard Strauss and Debussy. It was a revelation when I discovered Stravinsky. Now there was some original stuff.

As a kid trumpeter, around age 13 or 14 I started getting interested in jazz. I copped solos off early jazz and swing records, then I got to know some older kids who were into "modern" jazz. Beside Miles, Diz, Bird and Monk we listened to Bartok and Hindemith. They showed me the stuff about extended chords and chord substitution.

When I was 16 I started a band. I wrote some arrangements for it. With nine pieces I didn't have the firepower of Kenton or Ellington, but I could experiment with "modern" harmony to the extent that the people we played for would stand for it.

As I said, "modern" flamenco sounds to me about 60 years out of date harmonically. It has been explained to me that Paco and others were influenced more by bossa nova than by jazz, but the Brazilians' harmonic vocabulary was strongly influenced by 1950s jazz.

To stay alive an art form has to evolve. The music of what we call "traditional" flamenco (Ramon Montoya, Niño Ricardo and Sabicas were considered radical and "modern" in their day) was supremely guitaristic. It was harmonically and rhythmically distinct from any other genre. The harmonic language of much of "modern" flamenco is less distinct, and to my ear less guitaristic.

For departure from 19th century harmony, Manuel de Falla, Frank Martin and Angelo Gilardino for example, sound more guitaristic to me than much of "modern" flamenco.

I'm not saying it's not as good as the older stuff. I really enjoyed Tomatito when he played Austin a few months ago with his group. To my ear it was certainly guitaristic. It was definitely flamenco as well--whatever that may mean. But I still enjoy the older stuff too.

I'd rather listen to cante than many modern flamenco guitar solos. The esthetic of the cante and the solo guitar have diverged even further than they had in the 1950s when middle aged Spanish aficionados sometimes grumbled about Sabicas.

But Melchor de Marchena, one of the greatest cante accompanists of all time, was certainly proud of his son Enrique, a decidedly modern soloist, sadly no longer with us.

RNJ



Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 8:40:54)

How much of possible rejection could be owed to mere subjectivity ( defending ground like maybe the elderlies of the fifties who refused accepting rock´n roll) and how much to rather musical aspects.

Who would still deny the merrits of rock´n roll ( other than maybe ears who grew up isolated from harmonic complexity like maybe hiphop kids or some of listeners in Asia) and who on the other hand would really be wanting to claim that repetitive simplicity like rap or techno had demanding musical structure in there?

Guess there do exist some objective guidelines in music that help experiencing organic and versatile / pulling characteristics. Things that made guys like Bach but also Beethoven popular.


Regarding above piece, to me there are too many notes, too many optional ones and too little of overall definition.

If it was to become the futures style, I suppose it could contribute to letting grow the fraction who prefer traditional stuff where most of notes tell you the intriguing harmonic and structural whereabouts of their predecessors and followers.
-

What I liked about this performance was to see a flamenco and classical player collaborate and close the silly gap between the audiences.
Could be musically attractive if they `flamencosized´some traditional classical pieces or folk.

Ruphus



machopicasso -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 11:33:41)

quote:

He seems like a good citizen. Interesting what he says here about Paco, (from about 1:50 in).


Can someone translate what he says?



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 12:25:07)

quote:

As I said, "modern" flamenco sounds to me about 60 years out of date harmonically. It has been explained to me that Paco and others were influenced more by bossa nova than by jazz, but the Brazilians' harmonic vocabulary was strongly influenced by 1950s jazz.


Without getting into the old argument again, I still feel when people write off modern flamenco playing as "jazzy", it has more to do with the execution and rhythm than with any harmonic things (chords) going on in the music. And that specific modern way to express compas or melody has very little to do with "jazz" at all. A lot of the same chords done today we can find in Montoya's music, yet it doesn't sound the same because of how it's executed. Extensions to chords only go to 13 after all, key changes are bound to the circle of 5ths, etc. Picasso, for example didn't discover "new colors" when he started getting more abstract with his artwork vs his "blue" period. But if someone today wanted to do a series of blue paintings, some critic will talk about how old school it is to do that again, perhaps missing the point of the new art. I tend to see a similar "wrong" focus on the modern flamenco stuff from critics.

quote:

Regarding above piece, to me there are too many notes, too many optional ones and too little of overall definition.


Wow, didn't realize that before, thanks for pointing that out to us there Salieri...[:D]



gerundino63 -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 12:39:37)

quote:

Without getting into the old argument again, I still feel when people write off modern flamenco playing as "jazzy", it has more to do with the execution and rhythm than with any harmonic things (chords) going on in the music.


I think so too, if they use the same chords and make a duo tremolo part in it, big chance it will remind you of Sabicas together with Escudero.



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 15:38:25)


[:D]



jg7238 -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 17:02:50)

quote:

Great playing but I personally don't like this kind of jazzy bulerias


Paco de Lucia summed it up best regarding the evolution of Flamenco in an interview that i saw when he played in Puerto Rico on the Nydia Caro show back in the 80s. I wish I could find it but anyway he said "Lo antiguo no es puro. Lo antiguo es antiguo. Puro es lo que haces con buen gusto y corazon. "



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 19:11:59)

I agree with Ruphus's point that the reaction to musical styles may be largely subjective. What I was saying is that my subjective reaction to much of "modern" flamenco guitar soloing reminds me of 1950s jazz. Nothing wrong with that. As I tried to point out, much of my reaction has to do with my personal history. But much of it doesn't excite me as much as the novelty of 1950s jazz did.

And I agree with Ricardo that much of the difference in effect between "modern" and "traditional" guitar soloing is in the execution. It is a major component of the divergence between the esthetic of cante and guitar solo.

I like a fairly wide range of stuff: flamenco cante, guitar and dance, classical guitar, classical music in general, jazz, blues, rock 'n roll, Indian classical music, both the northern and southern traditions. I spent the month of July in Bali steeped in Balinese gamelan and dance, and the music of the wayang kulit shadow play. I love it all.

The various Euro-American musics have influenced one another significantly throughout their shared histories. It seems to me flamenco guitar has been more influenced by other musics than the cante has, to my ear losing a little of its distinctiveness.

But I repeat, I really dug Tomatito when he played Austin. He has moved on past his early influences and he really cooks, rhythmically and harmonically. His stuff had a blazing intensity you seldom hear in any genre.

But that's just my subjective reaction.

RNJ



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 6 2014 19:39:13)

quote:

Its like somebody saying they like flamenco guitar, but don't like the horrible whaling of the singer. It's not really "Horrible whaling", they just have'nt acquired the taste, so they write it off as if it were the same as a dying cow.


I agree with you up to a point. To use your example above, I did not care for cante at first. I remember long ago referring to it as sounding like a dying cat in a hail storm. But the more I listened to it the more it grew on me. I love cante now, just as I still love solo flamenco guitar (I know, that dates me for sure!). For me, cante definitely was an acquired taste, one that I thoroughly enjoy.

Nevertheless, that does not translate into assuming that one does not like something simply because one has not given it a chance. One can listen to something, perhaps some new innovation, with an open mind, and in the end still not like it. As an example, I went to see Paco de Lucia when he last performed in the Washington area two or three years ago. His group included a harmonica and a bass guitar. I found it musically interesting, and I particularly liked the harmonica, but I did not like it as "flamenco." I know it was "modern" flamenco and am not quibbling over the point. It's just that I did not like it as flamenco, not because I did not give it a chance, but because the diffuse instruments in his band diluted the effect my taste in flamenco (which tends toward Sabicas and, today, Paco Pena) has on me.

One can consider my taste in flamenco "traditional," "old fashioned," "narrow-minded," or any number of other adjectives, but there it is. Taste is an individual thing, and, for better or worse, that one does not care for some innovation within a genre does not necessarily indicate that one has written it off without giving it a chance. It might mean one just doesn't care for it.

Bill



tele -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 15:36:13)

quote:


Not criticizing you are trying to give you a hard time, just trying to hip you to
great stuff that you would really love if you gave it a chance, thats all.


Don't get me wrong, I like modern playing just like the old style of playing but in this video the often repeated jazzy approach where the guitar sounds almost like jazz guitar just doesn't sound good to me and that does not mean I don't give it a chance. On the contrary to me evolution of flamenco is one of the greatest thing about it as there is something new almost every year. Both players are great obviously, the combo just didn't work for me altough there were some good parts in the video

Jg7238: ""Lo antiguo no es puro. Lo antiguo es antiguo. Puro es lo que haces con buen gusto y corazon. " "

I don't think here's a matter of old vs new or pure vs unpure.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 15:48:17)

quote:

Don't get me wrong, I like modern playing just like the old style of playing but in this video the often repeated jazzy approach where the guitar sounds almost like jazz guitar just doesn't sound good to me and that does not mean I don't give it a chance.


Why would you give it a chance when you said you usually don't like "jazzy buleria"? Anyway, there in lies the problem exactly...using the (rather derogatory) adjective to describe music that is not in anyway at all "jazz" related. Bill uses derogatory adjectives (in quotes) to describe his own taste, when in fact that has not happened anywhere on this foro that i have ever noticed. Yet this over used "Jazzy" term and again "too many notes" are rather annoying write offs....and quite typical. Folks such as todd and myself get put off by that to be honest. Todd is there trying to sugar coat that fact that describing music in such a way seem to just show, not close mindedness but perhaps a failure to grasp the deeper musical message going on. Taste and deeper understanding go hand in hand in most cases. Nobody is being forced here to "like" something....it's just those un needed extra adjectives that jab us in the ribs from time to time makes some of us to at least ATTEMPT at opening doors to new avenues of enjoyment listening wise.

Ricardo



tele -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 16:09:56)

quote:



Why would you give it a chance when you said you usually don't like "jazzy buleria"?
Ricardo


I didn't generalize it that I don't like jazzy bulerias period, I said "Great playing but I personally don't like this kind of jazzy bulerias" , meaning it didn't sound good to me and what's the problem with that? The guitars often sound similar to jazz guitar in the video that's why I mentioned jazzy. Maybe I should have removed the words "kind of" from my post. Anyway I shouldn't probably posted anything because everybody either likes it or dislikes it and saying I don't like something sounds egoistic as if one opinion would matter[;)]



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 16:34:45)

quote:

Bill uses derogatory adjectives (in quotes) to describe his own taste, when in fact that has not happened anywhere on this foro that i have ever noticed....it's just those un needed extra adjectives that jab us in the ribs from time to time makes some of us to at least ATTEMPT at opening doors to new avenues of enjoyment listening wise.


Just to clarify, Ricardo, my use of the adjectives "traditional," "old fashioned," and "narrow-minded" in describing how one might view my taste in flamenco was my own, self-deprecating take on it. I in no way meant to imply that anyone on the Foro has ever described me in those terms. And I certainly did not mean to jab you or Todd in the ribs with my comment. I simply meant to use my own approach to enjoying flamenco as an example of one's taste not necessarily depending on not having given some new innovation in the genre a chance.

In the example of Paco de Lucia's last visit to the Washington area, I found the combination of non-traditional instruments (harmonica, base guitar) musically interesting but did not care for it as flamenco. (I have listened to other, similar performances using non-traditional instruments as well. I don't base my opinion solely on Paco's performance.) The only way I can describe it is, for me they diluted the "flamenco-ness" of the performance. Paco, of course, was still the virtuoso, but I could have done without the others as far as flamenco was concerned.

Bill



Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 16:35:27)

quote:

deeper musical message
in general and without question makes for a sophisticated evaluation.
However, not in any case and with all individuals.

In Cologne one of my neighbours had studied music theory. Still, he was all listening to trash like Schlager and even producing such when composing.

Many years earlier in the musicians scene of Hannover it was just the time of comeback of Tina Turner and those trivial disco hits she had. And all the musical cracks of the city were raving about her "brilliant" music. Even though me being convinced that Tina ( however an AH Ike may have been personally) has never been as musical and pulling like with her former husband.

Just the same am I willing to bet that among the host who started celebrating Pink Floyd yet and out of all with the plastic production of Brick in A Wall many musically educated listeners will be found.

And on the other hand, can you count with plenty of illiterate listeners capable of a very distinguished taste in music.

From there I think in view of musical theory as taste efficient, there is quite a difference between general conditions and those form individual to indiividual.

I have seen many profoundly educated ears who have what I consider bad taste.
- Ricardo will not want me to mention the higgledy-piggledy in SNISF, though it could serve as a perfect example of accepting sparkling image before degraded content.

Yours truely,

X



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 16:48:26)

This is not directed at any particular person or comment, and I don't know if it is relevant to the discussion, but this thread vaguely reminds me of Mark Twain's observation regarding Richard Wagner: "His music is better than it sounds."

Bill



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 16:58:29)

quote:

Mark Twain's observation regarding Richard Wagner


I prefer Rossini’s: “Mr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.”



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 17:16:44)

As music listeners, we all bring varying things to the table. It's hard for many of us to enjoy modern flamenco as much as the old stuff we first grew to love. Some people find the old stuff corny and don't get into it unless the syncopations are syncopated. Some people want the substitutions to have substitutions and some people "don't listen to music that doesn't have words." To an extent, it is a matter of knowledge and experience, but sometimes tastes remain unchanged despite repeated exposure.

Unfortunately, Paco's last concert left me cold and I enjoyed the dancer and the harmonica player more than most of the guitar. There are those of us, sophisticated people, that find even fine classical music, written by geniuses working at a higher level than any today, boring because it doesn't have a beat.

On the other hand, tastes can change. I now... sort of... like fretless bass. Once Todd went after me because I said it just sounded like a bunch of farting :)



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 20:14:51)

quote:

Some people find the old stuff corny and don't get into it unless the syncopations are syncopated.


Who? Nobody I remember expressed such a thing on here except for Doitsujin and he was half joking to get a rise out of folks anyway. The opposite, shall I say "attitude", is quite frequent out there. In the real world, I have only encountered the attitude of old stuff is "corny" as you say, from certain dancers who don't care for a certain accompaniment style, as per their perhaps modern or sophisticated choreography. The issue often is avoided anyway by rehearsal or negotiations way ahead of time. Of course there are plenty of folks that PREFER modern styles, but never in my experience to the absolute distaste for the traditional. The opposite seems to occur quite frequently to the point of MANY not able to admit even "flamenco" is going on.

Ricardo



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (Sep. 7 2014 20:18:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

This is not directed at any particular person or comment, and I don't know if it is relevant to the discussion, but this thread vaguely reminds me of Mark Twain's observation regarding Richard Wagner: "His music is better than it sounds."

Bill


According to this,

http://tinyurl.com/nd37ooc

Mark Twain wrote it in his memoir, but as a quote from somebody else. The same source attributes this to Woody Allen: "Every time I listen to Wagner I get the urge to invade Poland."

RNJ



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