** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED]

** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED] (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - ** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED]: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=260682

[Poll]

Drop the Off Topic section entirely

5% (11)

Lock the Off Topic section (for reference)

0% (1)

Keep the Off Topic section, with new rules

28% (53)

No political, sexual or religious discussion (anywhere)

25% (46)

No more personal attacks or rudeness (zero)

39% (73)

Total Votes : 184

(last vote on : Jun. 5 2014 15:25:54)

Message

Escribano -> ** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED] (Jun. 3 2014 9:31:11)
This is a flamenco forum, established for the discussion of flamenco. I have had complaints about a number of offensive threads and posts. Mostly, these are in the off-topic section, but not always. These comments are public and do not reflect well on our community, they dilute the forum and discourage others from engaging. [THIS POLL AND THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED if you have any comments or suggestions, please send me a Private Message]

estebanana -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 15:06:58)
If I can editorialize briefly, banning personal attacks seems like it goes without saying no matter what actions are taken about the Off Topic section. I also enjoy the non aggressive forays into politics, travel, history etc. as long as one or more parties don't have a bloody axe to grind. There are several excellent story tellers here who often link the story to flamenco some way. Would hate to lose that. The frustration level seems to skyrocket when the Off Topic section is used as a personal problem dumping ground. When OT is being used that way it abuses other members by subjecting them to unneeded anger in large amounts. I think the Off Topic section should be for socializing on non flamenco topics, but not a catch all for what is wrong with the world. Often times a conversation about flamenco means you delve into politics and religion, especially when discussing the history of letras and cante meaning. So it does have a place in flamenco chat. The gratuitous use of the OT section for venting personal issues the general population of the Foro are not interested in is obviously a big problem. Otherwise the OT is a beneficial section especially for non flamenco music topics to develop.

El Kiko -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 15:14:28)
although the off topics section is useful when you really dont know where to put things , most of the stuff in there is only off topic to this forum ...and on topic to other forums .... .. it really means if you constantly want to talk about ... say classical guitar .. for example or anything non-flamenco .. then you are probably in the wrong forum ... like that wierd guy who keeps posting blues videos with a telecaster [:-][:-][:-][8\|][8\|] someone should point him at the blues forum ... there must be at least a few thousand of them to choose from ..... Am I sacked now ?

Escribano -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 15:17:36)
quote: like that wierd guy who keeps posting blues videos with a telecaster I was waiting for that one [:D][:D][:D]

El Kiko -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 15:26:36)
damn .... I'll get my coat on the way out .... where are the flamenco police when you need one eh ??/

aeolus -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 15:33:17)
It seems to me that when flamenco guitar and classical or any other nylon strung instrument intersect as flamenco playing classical and vice versa then why should that be verboten? But given the quasi-religious feelings for flamencos and even a certain brand instrument here maybe it would be well to specify that ONLY genuine flamenco topics and only flamenco are allowed. Blues, classical, folk, etc. are not wanted. Describing a topic as General is misleading as to the temper of the current membership.

Escribano -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 15:38:30)
Historical reference to religion, politics or sex in the context of flamenco is very different from posting personal convictions or worse, bigotry. I would expect common sense in this respect. I mean a derogatory and inflexible stance that is calculated to shock and probably offend. If one can't tell the difference, one shouldn't post. This is not just about the Off Topic section, this is about posting personal manifestos and opinion without the slightest concern that they might offend and that others may feel very differently. It's about respect, attitude and choice of language. Posting in Off Topic is not permission for a free-for-all. Let us not bang on about putting the world to rights in short-tempered threads, scattered with insults and expletives. Let us not snipe at our fellows over purely subjective opinion, as if it is a fact or a lie and then argue it to be fact or a lie, when it is just opinion and nearly everyone has one of those. This is not anyone's personal soapbox to dominate and smother civilised discourse. So let's get passionate about music, art, flamenco or something that comes close to why we are here.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 3 2014 16:01:35)
[Deleted by Admins]

gerundino63 -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:07:55)
It's about time to do something Simon, appreciate it a lot.

athrane77 -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:09:54)
I think heated discussions are a good thing.

El Kiko -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:10:47)
I totally agree here . , however its a public forum so you cant always count on everyone behaving themselves . . A bit like Youtube ,..anyone can logon , see my public videos .. and swear at me .. and tell me how crap i am and that i should give up etc ... this is one of the things about being on line publically .. you cant really say what people may or may not want to write ... some behave themselves some do not .. and some dont even realize what they say may offend ... Its the price to pay for having a forum .... And hence the need for moderators that assist with regulating content locking threads that get too far out , and throwing people out at the forums discretion .. Its more a case of saying what the forum is for rather then what it is not for ...so keeping onTopic if you get one or two bad comments a week i would say then your probably doing OK , you cant please all of the forum all of the time , just please most of the forum most of the time You can listen to people. You can learn from them. You can be agreeable and you can agree to disagree. But if you’re liked by everyone, you’re probably doing it wrong. decision time .....¿How many moderators do you have now Escribano ? they are about as near as we have to the Flamenco police .....

guitarbuddha -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:14:52)
I would like to register my abstention on the grounds that I do not see my views or interests represented in this poll. D.

Bliblablub -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:24:21)
quote: ORIGINAL: Escribano Let us not snipe at our fellows over purely subjective opinion, as if it is a fact or a lie and then argue it to be fact or a lie, when it is just opinion and nearly everyone has one of those. Some "opinions" are trash. People who do have those kind of "opinions" and do not recognize that are pretty trash too. Something is wrong when people think they can get along having opposing "opinions" while not having the objectivity to solve those contradicting "opinions" in discussions.

Flamencito -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:26:32)
I votes for new rules, but would rather call them 'guidelines'. To keep the focus on the foro on flamenco, i would close the off-topic for guest (and search engines). F Cheers!

Ramon Amira -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:35:01)
I think we could take a tip from Delcamp Forum. They also have an "Off Topic" section for things that don't relate to classical guitar, and it is a perfectly lively and informative section. But they do not allow discussions on politics or religion. Below is the guideline taken from the Delcamp Forum: No politics, no religion Please do not discuss politics or religion on this Forum. This does not only mean in messages, it also includes avatars, signatures and attached files. For example, holy pictures will be suppressed, with no possibility of appeal. In some cases, disciplinary measures will be taken. Why? Because this Forum is devoted to the classical guitar. Individual political opinions and religious convictions are very respectable but can lead to heated discussions, and there are countless other forums on the Internet where these subjects can be discussed.

aeolus -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:36:28)
Yes it does seem odd there was no none of the above or no rules category.

Don Dionisio -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:40:38)
I'd like to start by acknowledging Simon for this great forum. There is so much good information here and I'm glad to be a member. That said, I am not interested in knowing someone's fascination for pornography, drugs, derogatory attitudes toward other groups of people, and lack of respect for copyrighted materials. I've seen this too many times here and it's time for a change. Personal attacks such as on the last thread that was locked must be dealt with immediately. Topics such as 'F' this group or that group should be blocked before they're even posted. I am glad to see that we are moving in this direction. Please let me know if I can help moderate.

tijeretamiel -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:42:12)
I personally think it's good to have a Off-Topic section. Quite recently for example there was a thread recommending a guitarist playing African music who was wonderful. I also enjoyed reading Simon's electric guitar mods. Rules should change but keep the Off Topic section if possible.

guitarbuddha -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 16:52:08)
How about we just let a few aggressive self marketers and social conservatives set the agenda in a 'Cliques and Chronies' section. If successful it could gradually be allowed to absorb the whole foro. D.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 17:12:39)
I dont think the Off Topic section is the problem. Nor is the guy with the telecaster, the fiddle, the dogs, the boat etc. The problem is much more general. There are some few members who in order to feel alive have to type a million words a day and they use the forum to fullfill this need. Since they hardle ever talk about flamenco, it ends up in the off topic (and sometimes lutherie) section(s). At the same time many of theese posters are full of anger and bad energy, so many other members leave the forum and we end up being a lot of semi of fully neurotic members like myself. I agree with the no to politics, religion, sex and I hate everything posts. And i will try to behave better myself. I actually mean it.[8D]

Bulerias2005 -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 17:42:08)
Maintaining a high level of civility is probably the way to go. I am a member of numerous videogame forums that have (had?) the same problem, and their solution was swift bannings... seems to work pretty well.

El Burdo -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 17:47:10)
I was the target of the most immoderate attack and that guy should be sacked for it. The original poster shouldn't have been able to post the thread in the first place either. That was the perfect case for moderation. I don't think you need call it politics or religion, but ranting. It attracts the mad, and I regret even trying to be reasonable. There are not many active posters here because of some posters' intense need to assert themselves and their views. Like dogs pissing on your coatstand. I know for a fact that it turns people off who have a lot to offer. It isn't just the smart alecs. It's the bitter pills and the smug old men. But, I don't think we should want to change that. We can ignore stuff that is of no interest and those members referred to above are often very informative and helpful. But it feels like picking up a rose by the stem when you engage with them some times. I'm not in favour of any additional rules but I think everything should be about flamenco in its widest form. That includes other related luthiery, classical intersection, jazz harmony in modern flamenco etc. But not dogs or The Blues (sorry). And if anyone says **** You to anyone, dump them. Sorry: EDIT. I think you are doing a fantastic job as well, Escribano.

akatune -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 17:57:58)
You want to abridge people's expressions of their opinions? Wow, how absolutely thin skinned and weak. And tyrannical. I'm being oppressed. Help! I'm being oppressed!

Pimientito -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 18:11:45)
On of the reasons I was off the forum for a while was because of a few very rude characters who really managed to turn every single thread into a negative debate or name turning contest. We have no female contributers apart from Estela any more. Why?? Its because every single time, they get bullied and treated disrespectfully by the same one or two characters who never get pulled up on their behaviour. First rule should be that female contributors are treated in a gentleman like manner by male members or instant ban. I think Off topic is great and so is lively debate...also if someone wants to raise a political point in an off topic thread, that should be able to happen without it being brought in to all the other threads. If you dont like that thread...dont read it!! I think modulation needs to be stricter on trolls, spammers, name callers, biggots and sexists. After fair warnings we banned people in the past who turned the forum into a negative place. That hasnt happened for a while. It all boils down to basic respect, debate and learning....not about preaching, superiority and just plain rudeness.

Leñador -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 18:11:53)
I think some people have problems with specific people but it's not all the same person and if the rules don't change to modify that ONE persons behavior then the other person is going to think nothing was done. That made more sense in my brain then after I read it….. Not opposed to some new guidelines, don't care either way to be honest but I don't think this forum should be as stuffy and uptight as delcamp. A room full of flamencos should and would be a little more colorful than a room full of classical players…..

Don Dionisio -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 18:13:42)
Akatune, While you weren't the only antagonist in the last locked thread, you certainly weren't civil. If it were up to me (and it isn't) you would have been warned the first time and then banned the second time you cussed someone out. You have the right to your opinions as long as you practice restraint and civility. Perhaps if you did practice some self-imposed oppression, we wouldn't have to oppress you.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 18:15:01)
quote: There are not many active posters here because of some posters' intense need to assert themselves and their views. Like dogs pissing on your coatstand. I know for a fact that it turns people off who have a lot to offer. It isn't just the smart alecs. It's the bitter pills and the smug old men. But, I don't think we should want to change that. We can ignore stuff that is of no interest and those members referred to above are often very informative and helpful. But it feels like picking up a rose by the stem when you engage with them some times. I agree. In my wild fantasies, I see a typing counter, so that when you´ve reached a certain amount of words, you´re off till next month. It works like that when reading some newspapers online. After 15 - 25 articles, you´re banned for the rest of the month. It makes you think about what you really want to read.

Escribano -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 18:22:44)
quote: You want to abridge people's expressions of their opinions? Wow, how absolutely thin skinned and weak. And tyrannical. I'm being oppressed. If I were thin-skinned, I would not ask for feedback If I were weak, I would do nothing If I were tyrannical, I would not put it up for a vote

withinity -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 18:41:51)
Off Topic (Guest: Read-Only / Member: Post) Nothing to do with flamenco, move along By this definition topics about my grandmother, dog, boat political or religious views are all within the right to post. If you personally don't like a topic , that's your own issue. Where do you draw the line in terms of who's interests are valid enough to post and which can we ignore when we all feel and think different things which ultimately leads to various expression and posts of different content. I'm not in favour of any additional rules but I think everything should be about flamenco in its widest form. That includes other related luthiery, classical intersection, jazz harmony in modern flamenco etc. All of those forum sections exist already so whats the problem, if you want to discuss Flamenco choose any forum except Off topic ? Its not like it disturbs the other sub forums and i'm sure no'one forced you into viewing it. I understand targeting personalisms because they have no place in a constructive conversation but if people can present there opinions without being nasty or condescending about matters then they should not be censored IMO.

Grisha -> RE: * Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]* (Jun. 3 2014 20:04:15)
By removing the off-topic section you will severely limit the discussed subjects. In my experience life is much more than flamenco and sometimes it is nice to be able to share certain findings or discuss an issue with people you've conversed with for years and whose opinion you value. Perhaps politics and religion should not be discussed. What turns me down on this forum is some flamenco snobbery that I see from time to time. Some comments here and there about classical music in particular (one of them is already in this thread). As a player who plays both styles I was turned off by some of the posts. If you remove off-topic section it will be impossible to talk about any style but flamenco. Then again, maybe that's what you want...

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