Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (Full Version)

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rojarosguitar -> Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 16:17:14)

Hello,

I just visited Mundo Flamenco yesterday - as always having a beautiful collection of guitars for sale or unsellable collectors items just to enjoy.

Actually I was curious to play a guitar made by the Foro member Anders Elliason that has been sold recently but not yet shipped. Marvelous blanca with wooden pegs (2009 built) - very traditional sound and well playable.

By this occasion I tried some other guitars out of curiosity, especially just to find out how much they buzz as compared to my own guitar.

I found there was not a single one that would not buzz a bit, some little more, some little less (all less than mine which is set up insanely low by myself for experimentation purposes).

I also noticed that the character of the buzz was different on the different on diferent guitars.

Johannes (shop owner) has just brought three new Lester De Voe guitars, and their buzz was totally related to the sound, very subtle and very nicely coloring the fundamental tone. Incredibly sweet. Although these guitars were not the loudest (for the player) they were incredibly consistent across the whole fingerboard and all positions. The slight sweet buzz seemed to be a beautiful part of the sound ...

Other guitars have more disconnected (in lack of a better word) buzz that just occurs at certain notes more and at certain other notes less - as good as these guitars might sound otherwise.

Very interesting for me. I thought, I'd rather prefer the first kind of buzz and wouldn't mind to have it on every note (bass strings). Wonder hot that is achieved. It seems that the insanely low action of my guitar points a bit into that direction (with too much of it).

So it seems quite a delicate balance of the whole setup - or do I miss here something that is not related to action setup (of course a well made fretboard assumed)?

Curious about your ideas here...



Ramon Amira -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 16:41:48)

You have to be sure that you're not confusing " buzz" with typical flamenco guitar "rasp." They are not the same thing.

Ramon



Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 17:53:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramon Amira

You have to be sure that you're not confusing " buzz" with typical flamenco guitar "rasp." They are not the same thing.

Ramon


I vaguely figured something to that meaning, but without understanding what and how.
Care to educate us some more on the theme of rasp?
Thanx!
-

Rojaros,

I agree on the DeVoe. ( Having experience with only one of his, but from what I hear his production seems quite consistent in terms of properties.)
It is very well balanced and linear accross the fretboard and dynamic range.
"Sweet" is a proper overall discription indeed, I think.

My favorite type of guitar is a bit more dirty and romantic, but in respect of a guitars sonically perfected, versatile and roundabout textbook-like correct performance, it will hardly get much better.

Besides, very meticulous observation about the "buzz". I did not even note any ( that little there is) and shall focus on that next time.

Ruphus

PS:
Any AMM there at Mundo Flamenco that you tried?



rombsix -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 20:36:59)

I personally like buzzing even if it is excessive. I consider it all part of the flamenco sound unless it is too excessive obviously to the point that the note is not sounding anymore. Buzzing to me usually means the action is low & comfortable, if the guitar is not grossly defective of course.

Cheers!



Escribano -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 20:54:53)

Please, no more of this little twerp. I don't give a toss about his opinion. Will you edit your post before I do? [8|]



rombsix -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 21:17:09)

quote:

Please, no more of this little twerp. I don't give a toss about his opinion. Will you edit your post before I do?


If you want to do that to avoid potential repercussions from the mere fact that the man is whom he is, then by all means do so. But I actually watched the video & I think it gives a not-bad idea about what the question here is about & that is why I posted it. If one can disregard who the person talking is & what the brand of the guitars is, I think the video can be helpful.

You are the moderator though so it is entirely your decision...



athrane77 -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 21:44:25)

quote:

If you want to do that to avoid potential repercussions from the mere fact that the man is whom he is, then by all means do so. But I actually watched the video & I think it gives a not-bad idea about what the question here is about & that is why I posted it. If one can disregard who the person talking is & what the brand of the guitars is, I think the video can be helpful.

+1



Escribano -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 22:01:55)

Even a broken watch is correct twice a day. I find it sad that one would refer to this particular character, given his history with this place, when we have plenty of knowledgable people right here.



rombsix -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 22:23:20)

I edited my post.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 22:32:18)

quote:

I find it sad that one would refer to this particular character, given his history with this place, when we have plenty of knowledgable people right here.


Spot-on, Simon. This character is so repugnant and has fouled the nest so badly that it is a source of amazement that anyone would use him as a reference for anything. There are so many first-rate, knowledgeable luthiers and guitarists on the Foro whose advice is every bit as valid and more. And yet, there are Foro contributors who persist in acting as a shill for him, suggesting, for example, that he plays better than "most [Foro members) combined!" Sad indeed.

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 18 2014 23:47:54)

Thank you Simon.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 7:27:54)

Well, I´m glad you liked "my" guitar.
Buzz is something very personal. Some love it some hate it. Some can make whatever guitar buzz and other are close to being buzz free.

I personally like a tad of buzzing but not more. What you describe af the buzzing being part of the sound is very true.
When buzz becomes to strong, it lowers the volume and dynamics of guitar. It gets more "flat" sounding. You may even find people liking that, preferring guitar that sound like one ofe the egg slicers with strings that could cut a whole hardboild egg into slices.
On the other hand, a totally buzz free flamenco guitar doesnt sound right in my ear either. I think its an adjustable part of the guitars sound and soul.



tele -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 12:23:25)

Listen to some of manolo sanlucar's recordings with his ramirez, that's about as buzzy as it gets[8D]



Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 13:17:37)

Noone explaining on the difference between buzz and rasp, and on the measures taken by the builder to provide the latter?
-

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Listen to some of manolo sanlucar's recordings with his ramirez, that's about as buzzy as it gets[8D]


The neck compensation on my old Ramirez is so steep that you end up with almost no saddle when action is desired to be very low.
And mine was set up that way, with the saddle slot ( of a very shallow bridge) bearing hardly a millimeter of depth and the saddle at its lowest point been of maybe 2 mm hight.
That was too much buzz for me, who recently filed a new saddle.

And now with all the clean notes down the neck revealing even more the beauty of the beast.

Ruphus



z6 -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 14:24:07)

A great thing about flamenco, whether there is too much buzz or too little or too much rasp or not enough.

It is perfectly acceptable. What is a killer is if there's, for example, a single note (fret) somewhere that needs 'special attention' while playing.

So, playing a classical piece, for example, where no buzz is desired can be a pain.

I'm trying to 'relearn' some 'classical' tunes but with (my version of) a 'flamenco' technique. And Bach seems to like big thumb 'rasps' just fine. I'd guess that classical fans might think it sounds a bit 'caveman'.

I feel too that the flamenco 'setup' seems just intuitively much more difficult to achieve. I get there are builders here who can give you one extreme to the other, without any problems.

But actually playing a well setup flamenco is so much more fun than a 'typical' classical setup. In 'describing' my ideal classical, (in the past) the 'action' (especially closeness of strings to top) would not have been an issue.

Now it is more or less the only issue. I need the guitar to be pretty in tune, but I'm a sucker for easy actions.

It literally gives everything a much easier feel. It is a part of the (or 'my' if nobody else feels that way) transformative experience of one tiny corner of this great art.

I have a classical that is luverly. It has a flamenco feel and a beautiful blah (fill in all classical hyperbole for sound projection, sweetness, etc.). But it is the feel that makes it a truly great guitar.

Blind tests for sound do not work but they do for 'feel'.

I'd like to try one of those super buzzy jobs some time. But as Anders says, it's not that hard to produce 'rasp' on any guitar. I can control my technique miles more easily with a guitar that thinks it is a flamenco though; whether attempting Bulerias or Bach.

Great classical guitars can get away with a few things but great flamencos have to have an easy feel. (But each to their own, of course.)



krichards -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 15:40:43)

quote:

Noone explaining on the difference between buzz and rasp, and on the measures taken by the builder to provide the latter?


When the action is low, the strings may rattle against the frets, especially on rasgueos. It gives a distinctive sound and I think this what most people mean by 'rasp' or 'rajo'.
But a buzz is an unpleasant sound, usually from one note or fret. It is usually caused by a single high fret. (although there can be many other causes)

That's my understanding anyway. Hope that helps.



rojarosguitar -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 15:48:16)

@ Ruphus
Yes, there is one here: http://www.mundo-flamenco.com/nc/de/gitarren/gitarren-details.html?tx_kwmundoguitars_pi3[showUid]=132

@ Andres Eliasson
I really loved the quotation marks you put "my" in ... it is so true, it's a creation you put into being but nothing the ego can possess - as much as one doesn't posses one's children.

So it's just marking a relationship between you and the guitar...



rojarosguitar -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 15:54:26)

Thanks for your thoughts about 'rasp'.

Just to make sure: I always thought the rasp is rather a sign of a real flamenco top that gives more non-linear response (physically speaking) which is more like an overdrive distortion of an amp (e.g. electric guitar amp that is driven hard).

Everything else I subsumed as all kinds of buzzes - buzzes that are integrated into the note and buzzes that are disconnected from the note (as in my OT)...

So maybe I used the word improperly ??? Or is there also this overdrive aspect in the sound? I believe I hear it in good flamencas ...



Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 16:18:43)

Thank you for clarifying on the terminology, Kevin.
( Used to know that actually / good to be refreshed on it.)

Rojaros,

Thanks for the link! Did you play it?
How that audio clip reminds of my little affair with such a guitar ...

It should be worth listening besides, for the fellas with the trendy opinion to dislike bass in flamenco guitars. Here it can be heard how a deep but crisp bass sounds like.
It is the very kind of guitar that burned in my taste, if one can say so.

Ruphus



rojarosguitar -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 21:12:32)

Hi Ruphus, yes I did play it and it's a marvelous guitar, though I'm not a player to really judge such a gem... But I loved it. I can't remember whether the shop owner told me the price ...

He has few such unbelievable flamencas there... look at his home page.



rojarosguitar -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 19 2014 21:15:27)

Tele, thanks for the hint. Yes, there is quite a buzz in his playing, but it's really part of the notes ...

BTW very strange scenery for the videos I saw. Kind of outwordly and nobody around. Quite a lonesome thing, contrary to what flamenco seems to mean as a social encounter...



Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 9:44:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rojarosguitar

Hi Ruphus, yes I did play it and it's a marvelous guitar, though I'm not a player to really judge such a gem... But I loved it. I can't remember whether the shop owner told me the price ...


Seeing what he bills guitars of this make for, and considering that he has no plans of selling this one that soon, I estimate him to price this guitar at around 15 grands. Which again is what I estimated as todays price for the specimen that I fell in love with about 35 years ago.
That one I think was even a tad more appealing than Johannes´ baby.

You may imagine how I feel about not having bought it for some lousy 700 DM. [&:]
( While I had purchased my ol´Aria guitar for DM 650 or so only 2 or 3 years prior to that. Can you say irony in life.)

Clueless as I used to be, I thought such quality could be found anytime in Spain.

Ruphus



Ramon Amira -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 13:12:21)

quote:




quote:

Noone explaining on the difference between buzz and rasp, and on the measures taken by the builder to provide the latter?

When the action is low, the strings may rattle against the frets, especially on rasgueos. It gives a distinctive sound and I think this what most people mean by 'rasp' or 'rajo'.
But a buzz is an unpleasant sound, usually from one note or fret. It is usually caused by a single high fret. (although there can be many other causes)

That's my understanding anyway. Hope that helps.


That's not what rasp is - strings rattling against the frets is buzz. It's very hard to put into words what the sound of rasp is, but it's sort of like a bit of a growling sound from the belly of the guitar. It's the one single sound that distinguishes a flamenco guitar from a classical guitar, which never has rasp. A flamenco guitar can have rasp but not buzz, or can have both.

Ramon



Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 18:15:30)

So, where does it come from?

Ruphus



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 18:57:02)

Rasp, strange word. It's fret noise.

If you are talking about the voice of "classical" and flamenco. The big rounder singing sound comes from a top built with a bit more support all around. And that flamenco growl comes from the bridge being allowed to rock back and forth with a bit more looseness in the top.

But that is only a very general way to say it.

Should we explain our secrets? It's not really a secret, but we work hard for the knowledge, why just give it away? If I told you and took the time and effort to explain it for free in public how does that benefit me? Is anyone entitled to what guitar makers learn after years of hard work?



Ramon Amira -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 20:06:07)

quote:

Rasp, strange word. It's fret noise.

If you are talking about the voice of "classical" and flamenco. The big rounder singing sound comes from a top built with a bit more support all around. And that flamenco growl comes from the bridge being allowed to rock back and forth with a bit more looseness in the top.

But that is only a very general way to say it.

Should we explain our secrets? It's not really a secret, but we work hard for the knowledge, why just give it away? If I told you and took the time and effort to explain it for free in public how does that benefit me? Is anyone entitled to what guitar makers learn after years of hard work?


Well, we certainly wouldn't want you to divulge any secrets. But thanks for your definition, which is similar to what I said - "a flamenco growl." That is not a buzz.

As I originally said, it's very hard to put into words. United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once said in a ruling on whether certain material was hard core pornography or not:
"I shall not attempt to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within the description "hard core pornography." I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

I can't define "rasp," but I know it when I hear it.

Ramon



Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 20:15:12)

Interesting. I had intuitively been speculating about a lose bridge support too.

What the info is concerned:
If it was about a more general craft, I would point to examples like with cracks in the recording biz who very freely and generously share their wisdom with colleagues and even home studio-amateurs.
An attitude and generousity that I appreciate a lot.

However, in your craft of guitar building I can somewhat understand the reluctance to spread the wisdom. It is a tough ground to earn one´s rolls with.

Ruphus



SephardRick -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 20:27:59)

quote:

It's very hard to put into words what the sound of rasp is, but it's sort of like a bit of a growling sound from the belly of the guitar


Well said, Ramon.



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 20:29:55)

Ramon, did you get a name change recently?? How'd you do that? I'd like to add an ñ to my name.............



Escribano -> RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable? (May 20 2014 20:47:25)

quote:

Ramon, did you get a name change recently?? How'd you do that? I'd like to add an ñ to my name.............


Now you're a woodsman. Only I can change the names. [:D]



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