RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Full Version)

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mellowmel -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 20 2014 3:06:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

This is a venture that is not new, even the violin family is doing this very same thing, but there are limits to proper respect for the dedication of luthier built instruments.



I hear yah. It was just an angle for extra income in your field that I was kinda thinking about. The economy the way it is, it's just about all the guitarists are willing to sacrifice towards their beloved hobby. It's very evident for the last 10 years (with no sign of relief) that collectors are thinning out their precious collections with almost no response at the consumer end and we are talking prices that are inconceivable 10 years ago. Just check out ebay. I mean how do you sell an Adalid for 4-6 grand when Devoes, Barbas & Felipe V Condes for going for 4-7 grand? Even a 20 grand Reyes of a few years ago are now going for 12 with no takers. Those kind of deals would've gotten snatched up within two days before the great recession! I'm just a realistic & logical kinda guy, that's all.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 20 2014 3:41:57)

quote:

how do you sell an Adalid for 4-6 grand when Devoes, Barbas & Felipe V Condes for going for 4-7 grand?


My own personal belief is that it is by the grace of God that any of my guitars get sold. And this is no joke.

But I also believe that this is universally a fair assumption with all business, belief or not. There is balance in this universe.



mellowmel -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 20 2014 4:22:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

how do you sell an Adalid for 4-6 grand when Devoes, Barbas & Felipe V Condes for going for 4-7 grand?


My own personal belief is that it is by the grace of God that any of my guitars get sold. And this is no joke.

But I also believe that this is universally a fair assumption with all business, belief or not. There is balance in this universe.


Right on. I respect a man who stands by his guns. And having played a couple of your blancas in the past and currently owning a blanca modeled after your Reyes Plan, I would snatch up that mouth watering peg head you are currently working on with no hesitation if only I can afford it, and this is no joke.



Ruphus -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 20 2014 8:58:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

So what do the local inbred yokels eat?


Mainly fragrant rice-based dishes. Quite yummy stuff, however of only a very small variety. And like with any thing else since way over thousand years there is no development in the cuisine either. Only adaptions of abroad at best ( like the simpler of German / Austrian cream cake shop, which has been adopted relatively broadly).

I am longing for the most ordinary of gems, from hard-cured sausages and cheese over sauces and dressings of all kinds to the refinement of procedures and spicings. Galaxies away from Italian or Fench opulence of resourceful combinations and flavours.

Just Italian basil!
I had seeds sent over and grow some ( before the dogs occupiied the little garden). The local specimen is a whole other thing, rather ressembling some flavourless saur plant.
Simply italian basil with mozarella, tomatos and olive oil! What a treat! >drool!<
Mozarella and olive oil can actually be found; ... for the price of truffle. [8|]

Ruphus



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 20 2014 10:24:34)

quote:



Right on. I respect a man who stand by his guns. And having played a couple of your blancas in the past and currently owning a blanca modeled after your Reyes Plan, I would snatch up that mouth watering peg head you are currently working on with no hesitation if only I can afford it, and this is no joke.


My building speed is nothing to be desired and this is what keeps my prices up, not that my guitars are better than other builders of a certain level.

This is why Manuel and I are trying to reproduce a guitar model for a lot less cost. It's no fun having to charge higher prices for something that I could conceivably build for a lot less if I had the physical stamina.

But the market bears certain builders' prices; even higher pricing than this builder, and we would be totally foolish not to take advantage of it.

So, in my own asinine way, I'm trying to help the market trend down toward a basic price for a quality build. Will we succeed? Heaven knows, but I won't hold my breath until the cantaora sings.



Ricardo -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 20 2014 22:32:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mellowmel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

This is a venture that is not new, even the violin family is doing this very same thing, but there are limits to proper respect for the dedication of luthier built instruments.



I hear yah. It was just an angle for extra income in your field that I was kinda thinking about. The economy the way it is, it's just about all the guitarists are willing to sacrifice towards their beloved hobby. It's very evident for the last 10 years (with no sign of relief) that collectors are thinning out their precious collections with almost no response at the consumer end and we are talking prices that are inconceivable 10 years ago. Just check out ebay. I mean how do you sell an Adalid for 4-6 grand when Devoes, Barbas & Felipe V Condes for going for 4-7 grand? Even a 20 grand Reyes of a few years ago are now going for 12 with no takers. Those kind of deals would've gotten snatched up within two days before the great recession! I'm just a realistic & logical kinda guy, that's all.


While I think the PDM example is helpful to builders and players a like as a sort of "study" or experiment....let me reiterate that, despite Tom's insistence that it was unique example, I feel there to be a general issue about sound and response here and there are in fact players with DIFFERENT TASTES. So you are talking about non reverse-able procedures (I assume as wood is removed not added) to do this fine tuning thing, so there is the ethical issue. Label or no label, the guitar is "improved" or "ruined" based on differing points of view. I think it is a dangerous route for someone to take (modifying guitars unless they are cheap mass production instruments) personally. Sort of like plastic surgery or tattoos etc. Better we all simply learn what we really WANT (as players) and how to make it happen (builders).

Ricardo



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 20 2014 23:36:14)

quote:

I am longing for the most ordinary of gems, from hard-cured sausages and cheese over sauces and dressings of all kinds to the refinement of procedures and spicings. Galaxies away from Italian or Fench opulence of resourceful combinations and flavours.

Just Italian basil!
I had seeds sent over and grow some ( before the dogs occupiied the little garden). The local specimen is a whole other thing, rather ressembling some flavourless saur plant.
Simply italian basil with mozarella, tomatos and olive oil! What a treat! >drool!<
Mozarella and olive oil can actually be found; ... for the price of truffle.


I understand exactly. While I can't complain about Japanese food, it has surprised me that there is only limited rage of flavors that get worked a reworked. The best part is the seafood, which in my area is quite sensational. But the everyday stuff, especially in winter, gets 'samey'. There are vegetables in a pot and then vegetables on a pot and for some variation on the theme vegetables in a pot. In those months I want to make Italian sausage sandwiches with hot mustard and sharp cheddar on sourdough bread. Or go to eat tacos while standing at the counter telling the guy to keep piling on the cilantro, chile verde pork and enough jalapenos to kill the average Japanese eater.

Then I get all pissed off and cranky and am only saved by knowing that for 6 dollars US I can get sashimi bento for lunch that would be equivalent to a $40.00 lunch in San Crabsdisco, if only in a million years they could serve the same quality fish in SF and you did not have to sit next to a obnoxious boor who works at Google.

For $35.00 per person you can have a prix fixe dinner at a seafood izakaya that come little by little in 11 courses, each course has from one to three small plates or bowls.
I calculated one night what each course would cost in SF, should they even be able to get the same foods to serve. It was upwards of $200 per person easy. This is funny place too, because I can't read the menu and it has no pictures, because there are no gaijin tourists ever coming here. In one year I have never seen a single non Japanese person in this town except myself and my friend Chris the ceramics guy.

So this izakaya is the saving grace for me, you put yourself in their hands and they deliver it to the table. The first time I went there they asked the family if I could eat Japanese food, they laughed and said yes. It's deep country here so the food is more regional than what you find in big cities in the US. There a very regional ways of cooking here that despite the modern speed of modern travel and national news casts have stayed the same. In small cities like this can can smell the regional cooking style as you walk down the narrow streets at 5 o'clock.

But then what I really miss are the libraries at Mills College and UC Berkeley. There's not an international news stand within 300 miles and only three native English speakers in this whole area and I only want to talk to one of them. Well two of them if I could myself.

There is a pineapple upside down cake that sells in the local super market, when I cant stand it any longer I go get one and eat it in the shop in secret. There are a few baked items they have worked out really well, but they seem to be of Portugese lineage, but also not pastel de nato.



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2014 0:14:07)

quote:

While I think the PDM example is helpful to builders and players a like as a sort of "study" or experiment....let me reiterate that, despite Tom's insistence that it was unique example, I feel there to be a general issue about sound and response here and there are in fact players with DIFFERENT TASTES. So you are talking about non reverse-able procedures (I assume as wood is removed not added) to do this fine tuning thing, so there is the ethical issue. Label or no label, the guitar is "improved" or "ruined" based on differing points of view. I think it is a dangerous route for someone to take (modifying guitars unless they are cheap mass production instruments) personally. Sort of like plastic surgery or tattoos etc. Better we all simply learn what we really WANT (as players) and how to make it happen (builders).

Ricardo


The thing I would not want to hear about is if this grew to a level where players incorporate the possibility of sound modification by fine tuning into buying a guitar. As if they try different guitars but don't find The Grail, but a guitar close to it. Then say Ok I can have it fine tuned to perfection...That is silly, just keep looking for the right guitar.

However, remember there was a trend in the steel string world to shave the braces on Martin guitars to make them more responsive. This turns out to have enhanced a few guitars, but it also killed hundreds of guitars that eventually folded up and had to have neck resets sooner and top braces replaced.

In the steel string world when people shaved braces they were, at least in the beginning, generally not guided by any type of systematic tuning method that was widely known. There were a few guys who specialized in shaving braces who were actually dealers and repairmen, who did not build guitars themselves. ( I could name names, but not in public ) Then following the lead of these self styled Martin brace shavers many guitar owners would take matters in their own hands and try to shave the braces and shave out sections of bridge plates.

There was never any real method or school of thought behind this modification work other than trial and error to lighten the braces and make them slightly more flexible. Usually they were trying to enhance the basses. Steel string guitar makers just took a lesson from this and began building lighter guitars, which was one direction steel string building was headed anyway, and a turned to making original models inspired by earlier Martin guitars

But they are not just going willy nilly into vintage guitars and shaving braces these days; the lessons of the brace shaving experience showed it was better to construct lighter more sensitive guitars to the edges of structural integrity than to wholesale retune guitars. And many SS makers today have methods for fine tuning, but they are more integrated with the complete method that that builder uses and usually carefully guided by some type of instrumentation that tells them where to take a little here or a little there.



Ruphus -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2014 13:05:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

... Well two of them if I could myself.


Hehehe [:D]

You know, actually I am not too picky a guy, and can come along with quite meagre dish lists.
Hence I remained rather OK for the first years.
But after 3 or 4 years the desire started setting in gradually, and now that it is 7 years ( can´t believe it myself) I am aching for sensation of flavour.
-

* I deleted this section again. ( Check notification mail if curious enough)*


We just got a new foro member from Panama who is allowed to live like in heaven.
Just in peace and with aesthetical equivalence.
Do I wish to be his neighbour?
You can so absolutely bet on that.
-

Sorry for OT.

Ruphus



n85ae -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2014 16:34:41)

Exactly what Ricardo says here makes sense, it is very likely that the "tuned"
PDM discussed, may well have been ruined since it no longer played as built.
So for some people this might have fallen into the category of "Oh my god, this
guitar is trashed now ...". Since it no longer was the guitar it was built as.

Regards,
Jeff

quote:

While I think the PDM example is helpful to builders and players a like as a sort of "study" or experiment....let me reiterate that, despite Tom's insistence that it was unique example, I feel there to be a general issue about sound and response here and there are in fact players with DIFFERENT TASTES. So you are talking about non reverse-able procedures (I assume as wood is removed not added) to do this fine tuning thing, so there is the ethical issue. Label or no label, the guitar is "improved" or "ruined" based on differing points of view. I think it is a dangerous route for someone to take (modifying guitars unless they are cheap mass production instruments) personally. Sort of like plastic surgery or tattoos etc. Better we all simply learn what we really WANT (as players) and how to make it happen (builders).

Ricardo



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 21 2014 20:08:39)

quote:

I think it is a dangerous route for someone to take (modifying guitars unless they are cheap mass production instruments) personally. Sort of like plastic surgery or tattoos etc. Better we all simply learn what we really WANT (as players) and how to make it happen (builders).


Ricardo, as I implied before, it's better not to do this to other builders' guitars, as it displays a certain amount of misinformation about the instruments; even if they may turn out better.

And my post was published with the idea that although it can be done, I don't advise fine tuning another builder's guitars as a perennial pathway to excellence.



Ricardo -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 22 2014 16:14:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

I think it is a dangerous route for someone to take (modifying guitars unless they are cheap mass production instruments) personally. Sort of like plastic surgery or tattoos etc. Better we all simply learn what we really WANT (as players) and how to make it happen (builders).


Ricardo, as I implied before, it's better not to do this to other builders' guitars, as it displays a certain amount of misinformation about the instruments; even if they may turn out better.

And my post was published with the idea that although it can be done, I don't advise fine tuning another builder's guitars as a perennial pathway to excellence.



I know you did, but the guy I replied to was trying to say you should do this a lot as a business. We have been over it in the past and was just addressing the issue since nobody else did yet (in THIS thread, and dont' feel like searching the old topics),



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 22 2014 17:17:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

I think it is a dangerous route for someone to take (modifying guitars unless they are cheap mass production instruments) personally. Sort of like plastic surgery or tattoos etc. Better we all simply learn what we really WANT (as players) and how to make it happen (builders).


Ricardo, as I implied before, it's better not to do this to other builders' guitars, as it displays a certain amount of misinformation about the instruments; even if they may turn out better.

And my post was published with the idea that although it can be done, I don't advise fine tuning another builder's guitars as a perennial pathway to excellence.



I know you did, but the guy I replied to was trying to say you should do this a lot as a business. We have been over it in the past and was just addressing the issue since nobody else did yet (in THIS thread, and dont' feel like searching the old topics),


Thanks for clarifying it. The whole point of my sharing this technique with Manuel Adalid is that he can employ it with his current builds so that I don't have to. I think the highest reality of each guitar should be its own creation by the hand of its own builder.

But according to factory methods, hopefully be it's own identity with quality and purpose.

I'm looking forward to seeing Manuel's latest build, Thursday-Friday of this week April 24-25, 2014

And if it turns out good, then I have done my job.

But it's still up in the air about the price, which we might be able to work out at the meeting, this week.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 22 2014 21:00:20)

I find it impressive how much publicity that Tom Blackshear is capable of squeezing out of his profit adventure with a Spanish factory. Yet another thread turned into this finetuning babble talk.

Its really well done. But has it anything to do with the original purpose of this forum. I think you all know what i think about it.

Just so that everyone knows, all my guitars are built so that they will explode and kill the person who try to finepuke them.



C. Vega -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 22 2014 21:37:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I find it impressive how much publicity that Tom Blackshear is capable of squeezing out of his profit adventure with a Spanish factory. Yet another thread turned into this finetuning babble talk.



I personally know nothing of Tom's actual skills as a guitar maker but I have to admit that he most certainly has the ability, not to mention the cojones, to take a thread on nearly any subject and turn it into one about his favorite topic....himself.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 22 2014 21:49:24)

For the sake of being a good neighbor, I'll try and stay with my own thread, "Fine tuning a guitar" and not answer any other posts on this thread, about this issue.

This thread was started about Poncho Navarro and I think we should show him respect with discussions that elevate his craft.

Anders has been on this forum much longer than I have and he deserves his place, showing his craft and Luthier's abilities. I respect his art and have no argument with him.



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 5:15:46)

Tom,

I endeavor to model myself after your calm and gentlemanly demeanor in the face of the insults and aggression you have to put up with. It's not like you are killing babies and committing acts of global terrorism, but boy you sure get treated like you are.

I wish I could be as cool headed as you are. Can you teach me that?

You should keep talking about whatever you wish to talk about in any post you wish to participate in and ignore the Conversation Police.



Arash -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 9:38:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
my guitars are built so that they will explode and kill the person who try to finepuke them.


[:D]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 12:19:33)

quote:

I endeavor to model myself after your calm and gentlemanly demeanor in the face of the insults and aggression you have to put up with.


Most of us had saintly mothers who raised us on their knees. And I came back to that about 40 years ago, but it is not to say we are perfect, just trying to be.

My mother loved God and showed me how much He loved me. God rest her soul.



Ricardo -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 13:37:30)

quote:

I find it impressive how much publicity that Tom Blackshear is capable of squeezing out of his profit adventure with a Spanish factory. Yet another thread turned into this finetuning babble talk.


WHAT??? You mean Tom Blackshear guitars are all Factory guitars? Can we tell by the headstock or what? [:D]

quote:

Just so that everyone knows, all my guitars are built so that they will explode and kill the person who try to finepuke them.


oh man! [:D][:D][:D]



quote:

I personally know nothing of Tom's actual skills as a guitar maker


Well, I played several of his guitars, don't know him except via this chat, and I personally feel he deserves more respect than it looks like he gets on here.



SephardRick -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 14:00:39)

quote:

Well, I played several of his guitars, don't know him except via this chat, and I personally feel he deserves more respect than it looks like he gets on here


Ricardo,

What did think about Tom Blackshear's guitars that you played?



Ricardo -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 14:19:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SephardRick

quote:

Well, I played several of his guitars, don't know him except via this chat, and I personally feel he deserves more respect than it looks like he gets on here


Ricardo,

What did think about Tom Blackshear's guitars that you played?



I played a classical, a reyes copy flamenco, and that PDM he modified .... I think something else but can't remember where or what. He knows what he is doing. I have to admit the reyes is not sounding or playing like the actual reyes guitars I have played, but, on it's own it was a high caliber instrument, and, considering it was much cheaper than a reyes (at the time) I would say a good value. He informed me privately that the instrument I had tried was not the best one of the all the copies he produced, but it's my only reference to go on....and this stuff, as we all know, comes down to taste anyway.



SephardRick -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 14:44:49)

Ricardo,

Thanks for the information. Never having played a Texas Tom Blackshear instrument, I was curious about how his instruments stand up to an accomplished player as yourself.
That is the proof of the pudding for me.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 15:00:18)

quote:

He informed me privately that the instrument I had tried was not the best one of the all the copies he produced, but it's my only reference to go on....and this stuff, as we all know, comes down to taste anyway.


Actually it was not the worst but not the best:-) I made 4 copies as best I could to demonstrate the GAL pattern that I donated to them.

Avi owns the first try at it; most probably you critiqued the second one that Dan Zeff sold on his website, and the third and 4th one went to Harry Lynch, which he sold the 3rd to a sound engineer and then the engineer sold it to a fellow in England, who wrote me to say it was his dream guitar.

Harry wound up keeping the 4th Reyes style for his personal collection.

It usually takes me about 5 guitar models to get everything right with the intent of the original makers, if everything goes right.

I did the same with the Daniel Friederich model; about 5 guitars to try and find his way of building, etc. And I might add that good patterns will normally produce good results, which the Reyes and Friederich have.

Also, the Miguel Rodriguez is not a good pattern to work with; without knowing its basic fine-tuning aspects, and this took me some years to realize its strength and value.



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 23 2014 18:11:43)

quote:

quote:

I personally know nothing of Tom's actual skills as a guitar maker


Well, I played several of his guitars, don't know him except via this chat, and I personally feel he deserves more respect than it looks like he gets on here.


Tom has been making guitars longer than I have been alive by three or four years. The older I get the more intense that is to me, reason enough to respect.



wiking -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 24 2014 13:49:30)

Well that was quite a tangent from my original post. Hahaha.

Made for some interesting reading, however, and has given me ideas for who I should purchase my next guitar from. Cheers.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 24 2014 16:47:12)

Regarding your previous post about buying a Navarro flamenco guitar student model. If it is Marlon's build after an older Conde style, then I think you will have a good guitar for the money.

RE Brune in Chicago remarked that Francisco's Miguel Rodriguez build was every bit as good as most higher priced instruments of that style, on the market. I have to agree.

And the guitar of Marlon's that I tried out a few months ago was very good, but remember this, all guitars are different to some extent, however the quality should be close to the same.

So, if you don't like the guitar, then send it back to Ron and try something else. But if it plays right then keep it and grow into its propio sello, don't feel you got an inferior guitar; not for that money.

And I might add that Ron Hudson is an accomplished flamenco guitarist, so he should know what he's talking about.



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