RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Full Version)

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Ramon Amira -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 16 2014 2:26:46)

quote:

Prominent Critic,

Your personal insults towards mellowmell are really unnecessary. Stop acting like you are an authoritative figure on here, because you ARE NOT!

Perhaps your parents were 'duds' for not teaching you any manners.


Huh? What? Please inform the Foro just precisely where I "insulted" Mellowmel. Exact quotation please. I merely pointed out that experienced luthiers don't construct "complete duds." How is that an insult.?

This is called a "Forum." It is for the exchange of opinions. Rendering an opinion is not an insult. Try reading more carefully.

I said - not of Mellowmel - but of the guitarist who insulted Francisco Navarro, that "as a judge of flamenco guitars he is a dud," which in the context is not an insult per se, but rather an opinion of his judgment.

Your post was gratuitously offensive, inaccurate, and ill-conceived.

Ramon



machopicasso -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 16 2014 10:30:35)

quote:

I'll risk a story that might not even be good for me to tell:


That's a very insightful story, Steven. I appreciate and respect the honesty it displays.



Arash -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 16 2014 11:11:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

In forty years as a performer and dealer, I have played a lot of guitars, and never once played one made by an experienced luthier that I considered a dud.
Ramon


come on now ...



Ramon Amira -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 16 2014 12:37:04)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

In forty years as a performer and dealer, I have played a lot of guitars, and never once played one made by an experienced luthier that I considered a dud.
Ramon


come on now ...


No, I haven't. I have played some that I thought were not as good as they should be, but that is a far cry from calling them a "complete dud." I repeat, experienced luthiers do not construct "complete duds."

Ramon



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 16 2014 12:49:21)

quote:


No, I haven't. I have played some that I thought were not as good as they should be, but that is a far cry from calling them a "complete dud." I repeat, experienced luthiers do not construct "complete duds."

Ramon


There's an interview with Daniel Friedrich the guitar maker where he says that about one in twenty of this guitars are what he would call not adequate for concert performance. he said it just happens and if he makes a guitar he's not happy with he sells it to a client who it not a concert artist.

I don't think he makes any duds, but he makes ones he likes better than others on a really high standard.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 17 2014 0:01:32)

quote:




quote:


No, I haven't. I have played some that I thought were not as good as they should be, but that is a far cry from calling them a "complete dud." I repeat, experienced luthiers do not construct "complete duds."

Ramon


There's an interview with Daniel Friedrich the guitar maker where he says that about one in twenty of this guitars are what he would call not adequate for concert performance. he said it just happens and if he makes a guitar he's not happy with he sells it to a client who it not a concert artist.

I don't think he makes any duds, but he makes ones he likes better than others on a really high standard.


Thanks Stephen - that's a perfect example of exactly what I said - "We all know that every guitar is individual, and the output of any luthier - even the greatest - will be variable to a degree. But that is only in a relative sense, not an absolute sense. So it's one thing to say that some particular luthier made some guitars that were better than some other of his guitars, and a different thing to say that this same luthier made a dud."

It's a long way from a guitar that a luthier '"doesn't consider adequate for concert performance," to a "complete dud."

Ramon



Ricardo -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 17 2014 23:11:23)

I think dud or lemon are appropriate terms, so long as it is understood that the REASON such a guitar sounds that way to a certain player, could very well be due to a deliberate design concept. For reference see "pedro de miguel". [:D]



Arash -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 6:58:18)

When I was with a friend in private and no one was
listening, I once said "this guitar feels
and sounds like Sh!t to me".

In public I would probably say something like
"It has sweet and sonorous timbric colors"
about the same guitar, and put it away or
take it to the beach.

I don't know if it was a deliberate design conceot
or if the guitar was in fact a complete shiitty, lemon dud.[:D]



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 8:41:54)

I'd love to have one of Daniel Friedrich's 'lemons'.

In fact I'd like one of has apples, pears or oranges too.

Wait I said.... Orange??? Oh no, I'm backsliding and slipping.



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 8:45:04)

quote:

I think dud or lemon are appropriate terms, so long as it is understood that the REASON such a guitar sounds that way to a certain player, could very well be due to a deliberate design concept. For reference see "pedro de miguel".



Let me get clear, you don't like these because they are in your opinion too stiff and hard sounding? I mean in general. Not trying to start a fight, but stylistically you feel these are not your cup of tea because they are tight?



Arash -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 8:59:56)

Even If I'm not a concert artist,
I don't want to be that one customer who
gets a guitar from which the builder himself said

"This is the one I'm not happy with and sell it to clients who are not a concert artist".

Be it Friedrich or whoever.

Even If that Friedrich guitar from which he was not happy with, might be better than many others from other builders .... still as a customer I want to be treated equally, no matter If I'm a concert artist or not.



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 13:01:02)

Well there is demand for Friedrich's guitars by top concert artists and he is just honest, there's also a demand for his guitars no matter how he feels about it. It's just interesting that one of the best guitar makers in history said in an interview that he is judging it as a instrument not for the professional stage, one in twenty on average; we don't know what that means in his mind. But I'm guessing his not right for the stage is probably still rather high quality. Most guitar makers are not in position to even talk about misgivings in guitars unless they have a waiting list two miles long.



SephardRick -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 13:27:03)

quote:

There's an interview with Daniel Friedrich the guitar maker where he says that about one in twenty of this guitars are what he would call not adequate for concert performance. he said it just happens and if he makes a guitar he's not happy with he sells it to a client who it not a concert artist.


The one or two Daniel Friedrich guitars that I have heard were outstanding.

Estebanana, any interview on Friederich I would like to read. Would you happen to have a link to it?



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 13:47:55)

I don't have a link, it was in a book several years back. I might be able to find it on the web. I have a friend who might know where it is.

Friedrich was one of the first makers to test materials for consistent attributes in a methodical way. He was talking about this mainly and how he got started doing it.



n85ae -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 14:06:09)

I own two PDM's and would not sell them, both are good guitars. I guess it's
like Broccoli some people don't like it, they never liked it, and they aren't going
to eat it, ever. :)

quote:

I think dud or lemon are appropriate terms, so long as it is understood that the REASON such a guitar sounds that way to a certain player, could very well be due to a deliberate design concept. For reference see "pedro de miguel".



Ricardo -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 17:41:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

I think dud or lemon are appropriate terms, so long as it is understood that the REASON such a guitar sounds that way to a certain player, could very well be due to a deliberate design concept. For reference see "pedro de miguel".



Let me get clear, you don't like these because they are in your opinion too stiff and hard sounding? I mean in general. Not trying to start a fight, but stylistically you feel these are not your cup of tea because they are tight?


Well, to me terms like "stiff" refer to the action and playability. Loose is a soft action guitar. Simply cuz how close the strings are to the frets over the neck. I still am totally in the dark about "pulsacion"...don't know what that is at all. I can tell by the sound (a different thing than playablility), I think, if the top is pretty thick or thin. Thin like a drum skin, the guitar is percussive , punchy, and bassy. Thick it seems like the sound is sort of "trapped" inside, yet mids might be just fine. Somewhere between these worlds is the perfect guitar. And finish thickness is a factor too. Regarding pedro miguel, as we discussed with mr. blackshear, taking some wood away (from top and braces) makes the guitar more percussive and responsive. (in one case it did, but I feel this to be a general idea). As some will say however, that is is not the intention of the builder and infact MANY players like the way those guitars are voiced. It is taste that's all. One guy's "dud" is another guy's treasure.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 19:56:33)

quote:

Regarding pedro miguel, as we discussed with mr. blackshear


Ricardo, I suspect PDM builds good guitars but I have to tell ya, that particular guitar was a toy....it happens sometimes but this was a special order and I felt that the PDM was either built by a subcontractor or another builder that he might have known about, but then again, it came from the special order.

And since I owned that guitar I decided to perk it up a little for resale. And I didn't let it out of my shop until I felt it was a decent buy for someone.

And this is not to say I haven't had to replace a top when one of my new guitars was beyond fixing. In the PDM case it was a simple adjustment, but something I wouldn't want to do everyday with a guitar of another builder.



El Burdo -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 18 2014 22:27:20)

quote:

Tuba playing is a low blow.
[:D]



mellowmel -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 0:03:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

Even If I'm not a concert artist,
I don't want to be that one customer who
gets a guitar from which the builder himself said

"This is the one I'm not happy with and sell it to clients who are not a concert artist".

Be it Friedrich or whoever.

Even If that Friedrich guitar from which he was not happy with, might be better than many others from other builders .... still as a customer I want to be treated equally, no matter If I'm a concert artist or not.


I couldn't have said it better. Unless of course the builder changes the label to 2A and the price accordingly, then it's a dud.



mellowmel -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 0:07:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
It is taste that's all. One guy's "dud" is another guy's treasure.


And after two pages into this topic, it DOES come down to this. Thanks Ricardo.



mellowmel -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 0:26:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

Regarding pedro miguel, as we discussed with mr. blackshear


Ricardo, I suspect PDM builds good guitars but I have to tell ya, that particular guitar was a toy....it happens sometimes but this was a special order and I felt that the PDM was either built by a subcontractor or another builder that he might have known about, but then again, it came from the special order.

And since I owned that guitar I decided to perk it up a little for resale. And I didn't let it out of my shop until I felt it was a decent buy for someone.

And this is not to say I haven't had to replace a top when one of my new guitars was beyond fixing. In the PDM case it was a simple adjustment, but something I wouldn't want to do everyday with a guitar of another builder.


But you CAN do this everyday, Mr. Blackshear, and it can be a start of a pretty lucrative part of your craft! All you need to do is add a little side label indicating that you've done some voicing adjustment on it. "Fine-Tuned by T. Blackshear" kind of thing and I can almost see it being a hit. A great deal of players would love this since we can have a piece of this mystic vast knowledge of yours without breaking the bank. The question is though, will it still "break the bank" with a work of this kind being done by you?



Ruphus -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 0:44:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: n85ae

I guess it's like Broccoli some people don't like it, they never liked it, and they aren't going to eat it, ever. :)


Me is proud defeater of former antibroccolistas. I lurk them in with a simple self-made recipe of fried broccoli on pasta and then hit them over with a subtle note of nutmeg apple and pepper.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mellowmel

Unless of course the builder changes the label to 2A and the price accordingly, then it's a dud.


Or possibly "1B / 2B" or so. For, the inventor of the seal meant "2A" merely for cosmetic flaws / optically less impressive grain, while function was not concerned.

Ruphus



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 0:56:26)

quote:

The question is though, will it still "break the bank" with a work of this kind being done by you?


That's a good question and I'll let you know on my thread " fine tuning a guitar" after Manuel Adalid visits my shop the 24th of the month, April....2014.

We are in the process of doing just this with his producing my model, flamenco and classical. He is currently using my fine tuning techniques and his techniques combined.

I heard from my sales agent that the current flamenco model turned out fantastic. So, I'll know in a few days if this is correct...or not. And of course the guitar should be around half the price of my own builds.

Is this a risky venture to put my name on? Perhaps, but not if I have anything to say about it being a truly good instrument for any player, student or professional.

But HEY! if you want a good guitar by Poncho Navarro, at close to half my new price, then revel in the fact that you have a good guitar worth every penny you spend.

And you should agree that the current builder/contributors on this list have guitars that are well with-in the price range you are seeking.

And I might add that Daniel Friederich was probably not saying that any of his guitars were inferior to his other builds but that there were differences in their propio sello, which is perfectly acceptable coming from a builder who is trying to remain humble and respectful to his customer base.



mellowmel -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 3:32:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

The question is though, will it still "break the bank" with a work of this kind being done by you?


That's a good question and I'll let you know on my thread " fine tuning a guitar" after Manuel Adalid visits my shop the 24th of the month, April....2014.

We are in the process of doing just this with his producing my model, flamenco and classical. He is currently using my fine tuning techniques and his techniques combined.

I heard from my sales agent that the current flamenco model turned out fantastic. So, I'll know in a few days if this is correct...or not. And of course the guitar should be around half the price of my own builds.


I'm aware of this particular venture of yours actually and my idea adds another twist to this. You know the "Pedro de Miguel" adjustment story of yours? What if you accepted these types of guitars from "desperate" owners, (with guitars within your accepted and strict parameters of course) do your thing for a cost of about $1000 (plus parcel) and lastly place your "Tuned by" label. (This way you get the credit for this now fine instrument) Even if you required a waiver form signed before the actual work starts, I'm willing to bet you'd be swamped with work within the year and that you'd have your own "Fined Tuned After Market Flamenco & Classical Guitars" waiting list. Jejeje. It may not sound lucrative at first but it will be continuous work specially with the internet's testimonial thingies and all. We all know we have these types of guitars or two that could use a certain push in the right direction. (That's why the strings market is so successful) Well, what do I know really but what do you think?



mellowmel -> [Deleted] (Apr. 19 2014 3:37:03)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 19 2014 3:38:07



mellowmel -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 3:40:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Or possibly "1B / 2B" or so. For, the inventor of the seal meant "2A" merely for cosmetic flaws / optically less impressive grain, while function was not concerned.

Ruphus


Yes you're right. The "A and B" do matter, jejeje. Guitar labeling is so complex, isn't it?



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 11:35:31)

quote:

Me is proud defeater of former antibroccolistas. I lurk them in with a simple self-made recipe of fried broccoli on pasta and then hit them over with a subtle note of nutmeg apple and pepper.


Hmm, Antibroccolistas you say? They sound like tough punks.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 12:42:03)

quote:

We all know we have these types of guitars or two that could use a certain push in the right direction. (That's why the strings market is so successful) Well, what do I know really but what do you think?


This is a venture that is not new, even the violin family is doing this very same thing, but there are limits to proper respect for the dedication of luthier built instruments.

For example: If a repairman adjusted my guitars they would be ruined due to the fine tuning already done. And then there could be a health issue involved due to any number of things harbored in guitars with some age on them. I once detected a Barbero guitar with green fungus in it.



Ruphus -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 19 2014 15:32:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Hmm, Antibroccolistas you say? They sound like tough punks.


Definitly. Just to think of it: rejecting Broccoli!

Two of them I turned into die-hard broccoli fans. Should equal punks converted to Chopin. :OD

Besides, when new here and roaming open vegetable market I came across a stand with a little bit of Broccoli. Obviously at that time this kind of cabbage was still not known locally, and as the majority of consumers appears pretty inbreeding / avoiding new food, the seller was only glad that finally some weirdo intended to take some before it would wither.
So, instead of a couple, he gave me a whole bag of that strange stuff for pocket money.

Meanwhile, folks seem to have discovered the taste, and broccoli, on top on the hyper inflation, costs you an arm and a leg. ... Provided you still are having limbs left over, anyway.

Ruphus



estebanana -> RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco? (Apr. 20 2014 1:22:07)

You sound like a Brocoliholic. Step away from the stalk and go to meetings.

Maybe you have not hit Brocolbottom yet.

So what do the local inbred yokels eat?
_____

Chopin? Hmm, girl music, except for the cello sonata.



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