Ricardo -> RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (Jan. 14 2014 13:07:35)
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quote:
This is just wrong. In this case it comes from both A harmonic minor and A melodic minor which are scales (and to me, harmonic environments, even though one was derived to act melodically). I know Guitarbuddha said this and burdo too. Well, I should have been more clear but the concept of "V7", that is the ROMAN NUMERAL usage to describe the tonal harmony function derives from the major scale. In the minor keys you have to borrow the V7 from the parallel major for the reason of needing a STRONG Dominant to tonic resolution, in doing so must also alter the melody which may or may not result in the creation of the harmonic minor scale or melodic minor scale or even some other weird scales like double harmonic etc etc. So I was referring to the tonal harmony concept, NOT modality usage. That being, well sure you can derive "chords" from modes...but there you don't NEED Roman numerals cuz it's really just about a big 13th chord depending on your mode. In the modal world it is a huge difference between melodic or harmonic minor scales but in tonal harmony the idea of V->i is more about the resolution so both scales are looked at as alterations to the normal flow of the music, not the BASIS of the music. Hope that makes sense. quote:
I assume the Eb is only played melodically and not as part of the chord as it clashes with the E at the top? So, I'm asking if the aug6 is actually played? I don't know, as that is about playing and I'm WELL back down the line there. Well, the point I was making is that this weirdo secondary dominant function description of western tonal harmony falls directly in line with what's going on in the flamenco world. Of course flamencos don't think about it that way or deliberately use those theory tools, so it is pointless to spell out all the examples as if it's mozart analysis class. Secondary dominant function in normal major key songs is something like this: ii-V-I is well known. So if you alter the ii you can get II....again this is borrowing from the other major scale as as I referred to earlier to tonicize V. So you now have V/V--> V. So this idea is happening with the aug6 chord. Except it't VI7-->V.....it's a secondary dominant resolution. IT IS A RESOLUTION. period. But in the bigger picture we are looking for the final I chord....in flamenco the V IS THE TONIC....in other words you have to adjust your Roman numerals, and accept this type of harmonic movement to be strong AND final. II7-->I. That type of Roman numeral usage is not done in western theory classes, but MUST be understood in the flamenco context if we are going to continue with his idea of describing the music in theory terms. quote:
I think all this SUPER resolved, very very wrong stuff is just a hysterical attempt to differentiate your passion from everything else by giving it different parameters. Hysterical? Glad you think it's so funny. Well, when I first heard flamenco I was also scratching my head about these pieces "Hanging on the V7b9" like so many other western eared folk. I changed my view after I got quite deeply involved in the music. There is an other dimension to the music and begs for a better description, if one truly wants to relate what is going on to an individual coming from another discipline. Again I recommend skipping all this translation and doing it the spanish way....do re mi, por medio por arriba, etc. But right off the bat there are transcriptions and there might be a better or worse way to do it. (as can be seen in practice). quote:
You don't know what I hear so shouldn't be telling me that I don't hear the home chord or the cadence into it. I have described a framework and have never said that it is unacceptable to sit on chords that are not the tonic of the relevant scale or harmonic environment I have repeatedly said I think you know it "intuitively" and that you hear it but can't call it what it is. That means I KNOW you can hear it just fine, but the terminology (I said language you were using) coming from your background is the issue I have. You call it "homechord" but refuse to admit it is TONIC. That's all this argument is about. I am saying you just have to get used to the idea your intuition is RIGHT. It is home, it is Tonic, it is resolved, it is all about it. Ricardo
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