RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Full Version)

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kuealani -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 1:48:11)

Is there really any profound significance comparing one flamenco guitar player to another?

Or is there nothing but grown adults on this thread that have nothing better to do with their time?

Ive been playing flamenco guitar for about a year and a half and would appreciate more useful information to expand my experiences in this great art as compared to listening to hens fight over who has the larger egg. Just my humble opinion.



Florian -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 4:15:28)

quote:

Or is there nothing but grown adults on this thread that have nothing better to do with their time?


[:D] yep thats me lol, atlist we didnt have a Bruce Lee beats Chuk Norris thread, (because everybody knows Chuck would kill him, because Bruce was just an actor)


I am surrprised you had time to read it and replie to it tho, well u know with all the better things you have to do with your time [:)]



Exitao -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 5:35:38)

But Bruce against PDL would mean a great lossd to music...



Florian -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 5:51:23)

Noone has faster finghers than Paco, hed tickle him to death [:)]



... Now, u see what you started kuealani ? very naughty !![:)]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 6:00:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kuealani

Or is there nothing but grown adults on this thread that have nothing better to do with their time?



Who said we're grown adults, and whose job is it to tell us what we can talk about...?



edgar884 -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 6:09:29)

Whats a guitar player without a girl friend




HOMELESS



All guitar players think they know every thing, and they never grow up.

Interesting thread here people[:)] but I think its all useless cause theres only one guitar master of the universe the one and only JIMI HENDRIX.

just kidding ha hahahahahahahhahha Voodoo Chile and Machine Gun the greatest guitar shreading of all time. ( IMO)



Florian -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 6:16:32)

thats what makes this place cool that we can talk about whatever we please, whatever its in our head (within reason) without getting our hand slaped.

We are not the first people in the world that compare skills of the guitarists, the hole world does.
Every movie gets star ratings etc.

I might have said more on the subject then i have originaly intended, and looking back at some things even tho i belived what i said at the time, i wished i hadent but thats just life.

Btw.kuealani welcome to the foro [:)]



John O. -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 7:18:27)

quote:

He means crack pipe. Fumando drogas...


Yeah I was in a bit of a goofy mood last night, had had a few beers. Sorry if I offended anyone...



henrym3483 -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 9:27:04)

pipe eh?[:D]

smoking pipe has another meaning but i won't get into that[:D]

anyhoo, id still like to see paco do an album with just him, palmas and cante.
it'd be great.everyone would say he'd be going back to the roots of it all.



Doitsujin -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 9:55:52)

The most interesting thing, when the people talk about tradition and roots in flamenco is, that the flamenco guitar playing isnt really old. Its just around 100 years old. And 101years before me, Ramon Montoya was born. He made the first steps to educate the flamenco technics. And it took over 50-70 years that the flamenco guitar became just a bit more educated... So.. what I wanna say is: The so called "tradition" of flamenco guitar begins just some years before Paco de Lucia and it was just strumming crappyly the simpliest 3 chords you could imagine. Just 50 years old and already called early roots?
Cante is a different thing. Dance..I dont know when it starts to get better..

Dont fight please, just some thoughts. I would be happy if somebody would correct me if Im completely wrong.



el ted -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 10:29:04)

Anybody fancy a Vicente Amigo versus Diego del gastor thread? Or howabout Tomatito versus Ramon Montoya? It's like comparing apples with oranges, it can't be done, they all have their place in the wacky world of flamenco.



Florian -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 10:44:29)

Doitsijin everynow and then you have a stroke of genius in your posts, the post above is one of those times, i couldnt agree more.


quote:

Anybody fancy a Vicente Amigo versus Diego del gastor thread? Or howabout Tomatito versus Ramon Montoya? It's like comparing apples with oranges, it can't be done, they all have their place in the wacky world of flamenco



Hehe el ted, you right that would be silly [:D]













cause Vicente would WOOP his arse !!![:D] Muahahaha............................................[8|]just kidding.....kind of



Ron.M -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 11:22:09)

quote:

The so called "tradition" of flamenco guitar begins just some years before Paco de Lucia and it was just strumming crappyly the simpliest 3 chords you could imagine.


It sometimes seems to me that beginners start off now by strumming, crappily, the most dissonant chords they can imagine.
It might just be crap, but at least it's moody and kool crap..[:D][:D]

(Just joking!)

Ron



henrym3483 -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 12:30:49)

quote:

The so called "tradition" of flamenco guitar begins just some years before Paco de Lucia and it was just strumming crappyly the simpliest 3 chords you could imagine. Just 50 years old and already called early roots?


ramon amadors solea in carlos sauras film works around 4-5chords and for most of it all the techniques are pulgar,rasgueo and golpe orientated, but the piece has "feeling" and even when he does the falsetas, he use the same chord shapes (keys).

also el chocolates singing is sublime.[;)]

i think a guy said all you need is "3 chords and the truth to make something of worth".



Ricardo -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 15:29:55)

quote:

paco do an album with just him, palmas and cante.
it'd be great


Cositas Buenas track 7 is just guitar palmas cante. On his previous album LUZIA again he had tracks that were only guitar, guitar with Palmas, and one with guitar palmas and dance. Yet the music is still not considered "traditional".

quote:

Dont fight please, just some thoughts. I would be happy if somebody would correct me if Im completely wrong.


I always feel it is dangerous to make guesses about music history before they had recording technology. I mean look at how some people critique the same music I hear today, and have no clue what they are listening to. It could very well be that there were excellent players at the time of or before R. Montoya that we will never hear, that played circles around their contemporaries that we either heard on record or read about. I take the stuff I read about early flamenco with a grain of salt. I mean remember Gluck or some classical composer tried to transcribe some anonomous guitarist's Solea falseta in the 1800's. So I don't buy it that R. Montoya "invented" all those cool techniques, or took them from classical guitarists of his day. Maybe the 5 note tremolo I could believe. But only strumming chords? We can never REALLY know.

VAmigo vs Diego Del Gastor. Amigo is more advanced rhythmically, but uses exagerated dynamics. Diego had simpler rhythms but played more agressively at all times. There are times flamenco needs balls.

Tomatito can be directly compared to Ramon Montoya as he recorded his falseta on Guitarra Gitana, the Rondena. Tomatito stretches one phrase in a very nice way in his interpretation. Again I would say Tomatito is much more advanced rhythmically, yet still has the sensetivity for certain lyrical passages. How about Nunez vs Escudero?

Listen and compare to make up your own mind. Comparing and contrasting guitarists of different periods is a good way to learn and develop tastes. Like comparing wines of different dates.

Bruce Lee (skinny and fast) beat Chuck's butt (fat and slow) in Return of the Dragon.

Ricardo



XXX -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 16:31:37)

quote:

On his previous album LUZIA again he had tracks that were only guitar, guitar with Palmas, and one with guitar palmas and dance. Yet the music is still not considered "traditional".


Funny thing(, or maybe not) is that in the press LuZia was described as "turning back to the roots", i.e. traditional.

Anyways I dont care about puro/modern/traditional anymore. I love all music... except HipHop and Metal...sometimes Country (I mean english and german country/folk) and Techno. Sometimes I dont like classical either, as well as Jazz. Rock too. Blues is good, but not always. I fear there are even one or two flamenco tracks that I dont like [:-]

Cmon, this "categorization" is BS... If you like a piece of music, cool; if not, its ok, too.



Doitsujin -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 17:07:03)

Ok crapyly was the false word. Yes I like the acompan. from Amador for Farruco much, too. Yes he used not much chords but played fantasic. But did they have such good sounding guitars in past? The strings werent laser selected as today, no?[:D] Its really a pitty that recording was so late invented. Its crazy how fast the world grew together. Thanks to the internet.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 7 2006 22:52:22)

quote:

yep thats me lol, atlist we didnt have a Bruce Lee beats Chuk Norris thread, (because everybody knows Chuck would kill him, because Bruce was just an actor)


Do you know what you are talking about?



Florian -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 8 2006 0:28:39)

that was a joke Thomas [:)]



luke.park -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 8 2006 23:47:43)

have you not seen it where bruce lee breaks chucks neck... you know.. on that er... film..

quote:


because Bruce was just an actor)


okay point taken

annnyway...



Exitao -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 9 2006 6:44:21)

Best thread ever. Please don't let it die. [:D]



henrym3483 -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 9 2006 12:37:48)

tomatito said in an interview about paco:

quote:

He's still my idol. You can't do more than what he's done for the guitar. He's set the standard sky high... you just can't play better than that. I play the guitar well, and I know that. But there's Paco de Lucía, and then there's the rest of us. And anyone who doesn't know it, go see a doctor. You have to accept that if you want to live in peace... and so you don't just throw in the towel. You have to fight for your instrument, to play better and better, to make music and for people to enjoy the music. And above all for you to enjoy it yourself. Martyrdom's not for me. You just have to accept it.


maybe i do need to see a shrink?[:D]



Crows -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 12 2006 7:53:38)

'So.. what I wanna say is: The so called "tradition" of flamenco guitar begins just some years before Paco de Lucia and it was just strumming crappyly the simpliest 3 chords you could imagine.'


Please tell me this is humour.
Maybe I've just lost the plot this morning.

Andy.



Florian -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 12 2006 8:06:27)

Sorry Andy but i agree with that, yes it was exagerated to make the point, but the guitar was very very basic in the 40's 50's.

As time goes up the standards keep going up, almost any guitarist in spain this days would have been the best guitarist in Spain playing what he does now back then.

If Nino Ricardo started playing today the way he did back then he would not be nino ricardo as u know him.

different days different standards, they were all good for they own time



Exitao -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 12 2006 8:34:37)

As I explore Flamenco music and find older music it really sounds like a folk music. A very good folk music, but folksy nonetheless.

I think that Flamenco is transcending the confines of folk music largely due to the refining influences of theory, guitar techniques in general and lutherie.

I really do begin to see where the lines of the 'new flamenco' started.

The greatness of the previous greats is not in question. In their respective time(s) I'm certain they were prodigies and even revolutionary. Today's greats have the advantage of their predecessor's achievements. To paraphrase Newton, what they have achieved they have done by standing on the shoulders of giants.

Florian uses Nino Ricardo as an example for Flamenco, but even consider what a Segovia might have done had someone paved the way for him...



Crows -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 12 2006 10:07:46)

Yes, I agree with your feelings with respect to time and progress/development, that is natural.
But notwithstanding, good music transcends time.

As I explore the music more I find profound emotions in the earlier recordings that I have heard, and yes, maybe the core of this music is harmonically naive. But does it really matter? Not to me it doesn't.
To make the comment, and direct it at music that was produced 'in it's own time' is not good.
It's like taking the p1ss out of the roots.

Maybe I misunderstand how this thread has developed, but as El Ted once suggested - there are lovers of the guitar and then there are lovers of Flamenco.

Andy.



Florian -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 12 2006 12:21:30)

Exitao.. i agree.

Crows, noone is taking the piss out of the roots, infact everytime i said anything about the roots i made sure to say something pollitically correct so that people know that i wasent attacking the roots.

I was going the other way, i was prasing the present i didnt say the music is better (even tho i miself think that ) i made sure not too so that i wouldnt upset anyone.

And u can belive that i am 100 % fan of flamenco not of Paco or anyother guitarist or guitar or whatever.

I respect the past of flamenco as much as the next guy, but god gave me my own ears and brains to listen and decide for myself what i think good flamenco is, i am not gonna say i like someones guitar playing just becuae he was born 70 years before me, and i should because thats whats expected of me , because he was a pioneer.

I respect this guys but try to put theyr lp on my player and i will smash it trough the closest window... in compas [:)]

I could sitt here and be diplomatic and sitt on the fence but instead i think you are too intelligent for that and i dont wanna insult your intelligence, instead i am been 100 % honest and open about my feellings towards the subject.



Doitsujin -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Apr. 12 2006 15:21:36)

The subject of my statement was not to criticize the art by itself in the past. I only wanted to say that "the early roots" of flamenco didnt exist really long and it wasnt very complex like today. Thats not bad. All things start as germ and have to grow much to become a big plant later.
Flamenco-Guitar is a very new phenomena. 60years is nothing in comparison to other traditions. And flamenco-.guitar began very late to become more complex.
Nino Ricardo was well for his time. But primitive stonage paintings in caves which are only 3 shivery lines with carbon on stone which look like some degenerated cows of flopped clone-experiments, which are made by persons whose adiposed-liver slipped during the embryogenesis on the place where usually is the localisation of the brain, were great when it was smeared, too. But if you go in a cave and smear this on a wall,.. it wouldnt be the same...[;)]



callistoluna -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Dec. 8 2012 4:56:44)

I know this is an old thread BUT as a new arrival to flamenco music I think I can say a couple of things for some perspective on this subject....

I have found that a many people have their own ideas on what is and isn't flamenco and then splitting it further into neuvo and puro ( please excuse the llack of eloquence - still getting used to the terms!!!)

As much as anything, you have to ask yourself what draws you to the music? is it the music? For most flamencos it is not just music, it is a way of life - I have gathered this from reading and my own experience of it. I often wake up with a flamenco tune in my head and at work during the day I will find myself tapping out a tune or idly just humming a falseta.....hmmm!!!

I must say that my first exposure to flamenco was Paco de Lucia - his albums are the easiest to come by for anyone curious and he does great justice to the genre - he is amazing and although he has (more recently) fused jazz and other qualities with flamenco it is still relevant. You just can't compare his skill and grace with the guitar with the past greats.

I was introduced to the music style of flamenco by listening to one of Paco de Lucia's more contemporary albums and I thought it was amazing. The sound and the rhythym were unlike what I had ever heard.

However, I also must say that it is very hard to follow for a newb......Paco's work is amazing but to a beginner it is another language and beyond the grasp of the likes of me although I can appreciate it.

I was stoked to find posts here recommending Juan Martin's books for beginners - I got hold of one of his books and listened to the CD and watched the DVD as well. I proudly told my teacher I had found one of Juan's books and he laughed somewhat derisively saying Juan is a bit of a joke in the flamenco world but didn't elaborate. I was quite embarrassed and so have never brought it back up with him. However!!! I have been listening to the CD and practising some of his music as it (strangely) coincides a LOT with what I am learning. One of the soleares I am learning with my teacher I swear comes from Juan's book....he may have taken it from someone else since flamenco seems to borrow a lot of material from previous artists...

Cutting a long story short (and for fear of being totally off the topic!!!) I think as time goes by flamenco evolves - Paco de Lucia is the future - he has done so much to make the music thrive and grow. Juan Martin is a fantastic resource I believe for learning the traditional basics. Everything in the book I have is traditional "classic" flamenco and it can be listened to while reading the tab and watching the DVD.

Go Juan and GO Paco!!!



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (Dec. 8 2012 9:02:41)

The idea of Juan Martín as a joke is a typical "I know everything" attitude or "I know better"

In many peñas here in Andalucia, if you are good at playing Juan Martín stuff, and besides that have a good compás and know how to follow a singer, then you will be considered a good flamenco guitarists.
If you dont know how to follow a singer and your compás isnt good, you´ll be considered a bad flamenco guitarist

If you are good at playing Paco, and besides that have a good compás and know how to follow a singer, then you will be considered a better flamenco guitarists.
If you play Paco well, but dont know how to follow a singer and your compás isnt good, you´ll be considered a bad flamenco guitarist.

What to learn: Go compás and Go learning how to follow a singer. The rest comes second.



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