aeolus -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 13 2013 21:45:59)
quote:
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ORIGINAL: aeolus
Unless one is into this whole bit tongue in cheek.
?
So what is the problem?
guitarbuddha -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 13 2013 22:36:48)
Read it again tomorrow.
D.
z6 -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 5:01:48)
Yes, it does sound like Copeland. More wonderful cowboy film music.
So, even Copeland was a closet fakemenco?
100 million sales of a record with flamenco suggested? Aoleus, you make a great point. Already everyone is playing everone else's music and making out like bandits.
But you mean Elvis Liebert, Otmar's big brother.
guitarbuddha -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 8:01:50)
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ORIGINAL: z6
So, even Copeland was a closet fakemenco?
No but he did like Bizet and Rimsky Korsakov though.
D.
aeolus -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 13:32:24)
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Read it again tomorrow.
By your standard de Falla's Homenaje is fakemenco. That's why I didn't think the thread was serious. Anything artistic can be deconstructed to its constituent parts and identified piecemeal for their origin. And then denigrated. Unless created by PDL.
athrane77 -> [Deleted] (Nov. 14 2013 13:39:34)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 14 2013 13:39:46
guitarbuddha -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 13:56:38)
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ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
It sounds more like Aaron Copeland or Elmore Bernstein to me. Far more a part of the nationalist school of post romantic classical composition than fakemenco IMHO.
D.
Fakemenco is when someone plays pop music and pretends it is flamenco or 'jazz influenced flamenco'.
Not at all how I see Rodrigo's work.
guitarbuddha -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 14:00:37)
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ORIGINAL: aeolus
quote:
Read it again tomorrow.
By your standard de Falla's Homenaje is fakemenco.
That is an odd observation given that I recently commended Mr Jernigan on his selection of the Homenaje on another thread.
I don't know whose standards you are talking about but they aren't mine.
Anyway it would be Fakeimpressionist since it is dedicated to Debussy and leans most heavily on Satie with it's proto minamilism.
D.
aeolus -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 14:12:25)
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That is an odd observation given that I recently commended Mr Jernigan on his selection of the Homenaje on another thread.
I missed that comment.
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Anyway it would be Fakeimpressionist since it is dedicated to Debussy and leans most heavily on Satie with it's proto minamilism.
But it also utilizes flamenco elements ergo fakemenco.
guitarbuddha -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 14:22:40)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
But it also utilizes flamenco elements ergo fakemenco.
Maybe for you but not for me. (anyway the ritual fire dance is more arabic than flamenco)
I am surprised that you would capitulate so easily to this label being applied to a major composer.
There may be people here who would like to encourage a view of Esteban and Rodrigo as equals and inferior to all 'real flamenco's'. I am not one of them.
D.
z6 -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 14:36:11)
You guys should 'study' the Fakemenco bible, aolean edition (the dorian got old hat, melted cheese). It's over as a sticky on the FA section.
Satie slowed down rumba and took out the beat to create furniture music. I like that too cause it's fakemenco. My new and best favourite.
Buddha, you're off the committee. Call yourself a fakemencologist?
Thanks for the headsup on harmonic rhythm. You jazzers have nice angles. And Ricardo went on to explain it to my hands. Thanks.
Which thread am I on?
Yes. All is fakemenco.
Who started this thread? Rabble rouser. You outed me... To me.
I've never heard any Liebert. I'm scared I like it.
Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 14:37:15)
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Liebert's Nuevo flamenco is the most popular flamenco album ever produced with sales of 100 million copies.
McDonalds....billions and billions served. [;)]
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Tonino is one of the greatest composers of the flamenco genre IMO. If I were to choose which flamenco idol I wanted to be I would choose him. Even over PdL, because I think PdL
Tonino not only rips off Paco and waters it down to easy listening, but he has done the same with falsetas of Vicente, Gerardo, Manolo Sanlucar, etc. He does so as an aficionado, a very knowledgeable one, but taste wise it's questionable. The problem is the duped fans. I have talked a lot about the GK guys....the singers THINK they are camaroneros very strongly, and the guitarists copy Camaron's guitarists in kind. You are not alone in your opinion however....lots of people prefer mcdonalds over real food, especially kids that like clowns and purple dinosaurs and don't know any better.
Rodrigo...maybe more sophisticated than Rodrigo and Gabriela....but "fakemenco" just the same. Falla yes...lorca yes....funny they end up influencing flamencos later on. At least those guys were aficionados. Lets toss in Albeniz and Granados while we are at it...wanna be flamenco piano players composing there own pieces based on what they THINK are flamenco forms. And further back as far as guitar goes we got Arcas and Tarrega composing "soleares" etc... how about the fakemenco anthem "malagueñas de Lecuona"?
I don't consider all fakemenco in bad taste...but if we must use the label we can apply it to A LOT of spanishy/flamencoy music that is simple NOT flamenco.
aeolus -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 14:44:34)
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I've never heard any Liebert. I'm scared I like it.
Oh come on now. Just a teeny peak.
Erik van Goch -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 15:20:52)
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ORIGINAL: aeolus
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I've never heard any Liebert. I'm scared I like it.
Oh come on now. Just a teeny peak.
That's an offer he can safely accept :-).
Erik van Goch -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 15:41:23)
You might like Charo... she was a student of Segovia and was named "best flamenco guitarist" in Guitar Player Magazine's readers poll twice. Obviously i fell madly in love with her when she appeared in love boat :-).
mark74 -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 17:09:19)
I don't know what that atrocity was, but at least I can relate to his hair
guitarbuddha -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 17:11:33)
!939. Django proves himself a compatriot of Frank Martin.
I would say that say Juan Carlos Romero took more from this approach to melody than Django took from flamenco. The guitar is bigger than one country.
D.
mark74 -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 17:12:04)
Well obviously I'm not arguing that Tonino is better just that I'd rather have his career.
The two most fundamental albums in flamenco for me are the 1988 debut GK album and Almoraima. I'm not saying that I think they are the two most fundamental albums, just for me personally they are, because their both so influential an iconic.
aeolus -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 17:57:41)
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You might like Charo... she was a student of Segovia and was named "best flamenco guitarist" in Guitar Player Magazine's readers poll twice. Obviously i fell madly in love with her when she appeared in love boat :-).
It's really eerie how much she sounds like Liebert. It's as if he took lessons from her in composition.
Arash -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 18:40:28)
This thread needs some additional action, still too boring for a "fakemenco" thread.
So..... I like the same fakemenco which paco himself likes, which is this one
best fakemenco ever [:D][;)]
guitarbuddha -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 19:26:27)
Fakedjango more like.
This from 1940 less self indulgent and more of a genuine attempt at using diverse instrumentation.
heavymellow -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 19:43:31)
Ricardo - great to hear a "real" Flamenco player acknowledge Mario Regis. Mario is fantastic, as well as his Brother Chouchou and Father Bik. They perform as a family under the name Gipsy Del Mundo. Ricao is another great artist from The Camargue - singer, songwriter and player. I personally wouldnt consider them "Fakemenco" as they have their own style of music from the South of France. Ole!!
guitarbuddha -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 19:51:04)
Some more Chanson but without the Rhumba.
Ricardo -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 21:29:29)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
This thread needs some additional action, still too boring for a "fakemenco" thread.
So..... I like the same fakemenco which paco himself likes, which is this one
best fakemenco ever [:D][;)]
Oh man Di meola was so crossed and started in the wrong beat...poor paco had to adjust compas for him that HE started...on his own song. How irritating. Anyway I consider this rumba...it's entre dos aguas/rio ancho again but revamped with a di meola fasleta intro. So is rumba flamenco? sure. So it's flamenco. But it's a fusion with jazz players interpreting so not flamenco puro...it's fusion. But for sure this was what gave birth to the bastard sons that constitute the core of "fakemenco" we know and love today.
Mark2 -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 21:30:15)
I like these guys, and the other French gypsies for the most part. Love the GK's. It does something for me that flamenco doesn't. It acknowledges pop music but is interpreted by guys with flamenco technique. That's what usually makes the difference for me. When I hear the player has actual flamenco chops and a flamenco sound, then I usually like something about it. I just love the sound of flamenco guitar when it's played well by people who have the technique. Mostly, that's done by flamenco artists. Somehow, most of the people doing this flamenco lite style, and I'm as guilty as plenty, just ain't really delivering for me.
Guys who do it with a pick, or who have crap picado, or have weak picado sound(even if it's fast) because they aren't really doing it right, just don't do anything for me. Ottmar, rodriego & his chick, Strunzy Farrar, Govi, Benise(perhaps the biggest whore in the field), Jesse cookie, all those guys, can't stand it.
The one's I dislike the most are the one's who trade on the word flamenco the most, but have the least training in actual flamenco. Or market themselves with the trappings of flamenco.
Like trotting out dancers who they don't know how to properly play for. I know Strunz has flamenco experience, but the records I've heard just don't deliver the flamenco sound, and the solos were not really very interesting IMO. A zillion guys can play fast with a pick. That's just not enough. You have to say something.
But give me a ripping real picado, good melodic sense and good improvising, and I'm a lot more apt to dig it. Chord progressions and voicings make a difference, and flamenco chops in the accompaniment too. The sound of real picado vs. a pick. I have to acknowledge though, that Toddk delivered the goods pick or not. He might be the only one.
I love John Mc, and his history is so diverse, he can get away with some spanishy stuff all day. Al D. has done cool stuff too, but his big number with Paco, if you take away Paco and put another pick guy in there, then I'm not sure. I don't think I'd like it. I like him on electric. His acoustic sound sucks IMO.
Last time I saw the GK's they were all using pickups, and their guitar sound was bad. Listen to the first record that broke them in the States, and there is no pickup sound on that record. It's all flamenco sounding guitars. Some of the live stuff, pickup sound-terrible.
I tend not to like the word fake. Fakemencos aren't fake. They suck for real.
quote:
ORIGINAL: heavymellow
Ricardo - great to hear a "real" Flamenco player acknowledge Mario Regis. Mario is fantastic, as well as his Brother Chouchou and Father Bik. They perform as a family under the name Gipsy Del Mundo. Ricao is another great artist from The Camargue - singer, songwriter and player. I personally wouldnt consider them "Fakemenco" as they have their own style of music from the South of France. Ole!!
mark74 -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 23:26:45)
I know those guys think they're clever, but what this thread really needs is some rasgueos with techno and zombies
mark74 -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 23:28:22)
or this
mark74 -> RE: Fakemenco you like (Nov. 14 2013 23:35:31)
