Was I too harsh? (Full Version)

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constructordeguitarras -> Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 18:08:59)

I have a guitar student who said this:

I have an idea for a guitar and wanted to get your feedback.
After hearing about the rosette and the amount of fine detail you put into each guitar.
It got me thinking. The idea of an urban guitar, made to be rugged and to be played. The focus on sound first, vs being so pretty you want to hang it on the wall and stare at it.
A more modern simplicity. The idea that less fine details and smooth rounded edges, it would b easier to make and more afordable (I don't know if that is true, I'm guessing) nothing that isn't neccesary.
Matte instead of gloss
Grey instead of golden wood tone
No rosette
Angles on neck instead of curves
I am a fan of traditional techniqueswith a twist but I also really like Inovation. I'm not sure if the majority would like it but I really like unique things.
What do you u think?
Hypothetically what would it cost?

And I answered this:

I'm sorry, [his name]. Hypothetically, try asking Bach or Mozart to write hillbilly music instead of what they wrote (because it would be easier and cheaper to do). See if they jump at the idea. I think you're a good guy and I don't mean to imply that I am great like those composers, but you're barking up the wrong tree. (Incidentally, the rosette has a functional purpose other than to look nice; it reinforces the edge of the soundhole.) For me, the fun of making a guitar is to make it functionally excellent and, somehow, mysteriously, beautiful to behold, within a very restrained, traditional aesthetic, even if they are never perfect. I might rather go back to being a chemist than make something like what you described for a living, especially if it didn't pay well to make it. On the other hand, if someone offered me a million dollars for such a guitar, I might be interested....
Sincerely,
Ethan

P.S. I need to add that all those rounded edges and things are very very functional aspects of the guitar, as you would quickly find out if you tried to play one without them--your hands would literally bleed. A flamenco guitar is already a fine distillation of what is needed. The finish is kind of an extra, but on the other hand developing a different gray finish would be an undertaking in itself as is developing anything new and different. So it would cost anyone more to do it.

P.P.S When I was making handcrafted furniture 20 years ago I used to get requests all the time about furniture ideas resembling your guitar idea, often from professional designers. They always ended up being more expensive for me to do and not fulfilling for me to do. So .... sorry if I seemed to come on too strong about it.



Arash -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 18:26:05)

I would have built him this



So, no, you weren't harsh imo

(and don't tell me i am rude or something, since i can simply go and fill out one of those formal apology forms from n85 in my special confessional box thread and come back with a clean record.[:)]

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constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 19:22:21)

Ha, ha! My teenage son would love this.



Arash -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 19:25:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Ha, ha! My teenage son would love this.


you should build this for your teenage son ;)



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constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 19:29:25)

quote:

you should build this for your teenage son ;)


Well, that looks beautiful, and he, being an great artist (or at least a very good artist), would probably appreciate it. Am I missing something esoteric here?

Gee, as I look at that back some more I am getting inspired to do something like that with a flamenco guitar. I did once build one out of spalted maple. I like the way it was pieced together with bookmatched sections to achieve the overall effect. Where did you find that picture?



Arash -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 19:40:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

quote:

you should build this for your teenage son ;)

Am I missing something esoteric here?
Where did you find that picture?


I am sure your son would immediately see that this is the
"Summer Vagina 1A model" ;)



TANúñez -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 20:19:59)

Not harsh enough if you ask me!



jshelton5040 -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 20:33:31)

I must be getting old. I don't see anything about that guitar that resembles a vagina.

Ethan,

I agree with Tom, you were much more polite than I would have been.

I've turned down several commissions over the years because the customer wanted something I was unwilling to do. The last one was someone wanting a flamenco made with half rosewood and half cypress. Why waste the few years I have left making something ugly.



Arash -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 20:58:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

I must be getting old. I don't see anything about that guitar that resembles a vagina.



You guys spend too much time in your workshops.
As far as i can see here, its hopeless.
Even if Angelina Jolie would knock at the window of your workshops - stark naked - and wink at you with a smile on ger face, you guys would slowly raise your head for a second, look down again, shrug your shoulders and continue building your guitars.

Thats clearly a nice and elegant vagina.[:(]



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 21:34:03)

quote:

I am sure your son would immediately see that this is the
"Summer Vagina 1A model" ;)


You're probably right. He's always saying how dense I am about things like that.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 21:35:32)

Thanks for the support, Tom and John. It's nice being able to run this by you here.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 22:03:35)

quote:

a flamenco made with half rosewood and half cypress. Why waste the few years I have left making something ugly.


I understand your feeling, John, but actually that idea kind of appeals to me. A while ago a friend gave me an Indian rosewood set missing one of the sides. (His father had tried to bend the missing side, unsuccessfully, and then he died.) Maybe I'll make a guitar that has cypress and rosewood in equal amounts on the back, and make one of the sides rosewood and the other cypress. I know it's kooky, but it is sort of interesting sound wise, too. I just snapped this photo, but maybe it should be rosewood adjacent to the cypress side and vice versa. Is there anyone reading who might be interested in buying it?



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Leñador -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 23:31:39)

Not blanca or negra, would it be a gris??? [:D]
"Que toques, una blanca o negra?"
"Ne los dos, una gris!" lol

Looks really interesting, if I had more disposable income I'd be all over it, I like unique stuff.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 8 2013 23:50:08)

As the old saying goes Ethan..."whatever turns your crank".

I wouldn't even consider building something like that but I guess I'm a real traditionalist[:D]. I'd use the extra side for something else like overlays and buy another set of sides for the back. I have about 40 sets of East Indian and may even have an extra set of sides if you need them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

I understand your feeling, John, but actually that idea kind of appeals to me. A while ago a friend gave me an Indian rosewood set missing one of the sides. (His father had tried to bend the missing side, unsuccessfully, and then he died.) Maybe I'll make a guitar that has cypress and rosewood in equal amounts on the back, and make one of the sides rosewood and the other cypress. I know it's kooky, but it is sort of interesting sound wise, too. I just snapped this photo, but maybe it should be rosewood adjacent to the cypress side and vice versa. Is there anyone reading who might be interested in buying it?




constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 0:19:31)

Thanks for the offer, John, that's very kind.

If I do make that wacky guitar, everything else would be normal.

Lenador--You're right, it would be a gris! I was thinking a nlanca or a blegra or something like that, but gris is more fitting. Though it makes me picture something not very nice--OMG, like what I started this thread with.



TANúñez -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 0:54:30)

I found something for him Ethan!



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constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 1:06:09)

Looks ugly enough. But I think he wanted one that would have a neck shaped like a board.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 7:30:08)

First of all, I dont think Ethan was to harsh. I fully understand why he wants to give a reasonably kind answer, and I think he did so very well.

quote:

I've turned down several commissions over the years because the customer wanted something I was unwilling to do.


This is interesting. I have also turned down many orders that I was unwilling to do. Basically, its so that if someone wants a guitar that does not look and sound like something I build, then the client should go somewhere else.
Typical examples are clients wanting conde headstocks and mosaic rose rosettes or want me to build using this, you know, flamenco guitar plan and finetune it the way another builder does. (I try not to stir up something here. please respect it, but the last example has happened many times over the years and thats why I put it here.)

Something new is that I have started turning down clients who have an attitude that I dont like. There are two types:
*the overcontrolling type that sends me a ton of mails in order to control everything I do.
*The overnervous type that sends a ton of mails about all the bad experiences that he/she has had with guitars and builders over the years.

I turn them down because they affect negatively my emotional end mental state of mind while I´m building. And that ends up affecting the final product

I like the interaction with my clients and the huge majority I consider to give me a very possitive experience. I like when clients are very intersted in details, that they have a lot of questions, but in the end, they have to trust me or trust some other builder.

Its not good for business. We the builders are supposed to be like the rest of society, well dressed, nice haircut, smiling and saying yes and of course and then cheating the client when he/she walks out the door.
The day I have to do so in order to survive, I close my workshop.



Arash -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 8:03:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

First of all, I dont think Ethan was to harsh. I fully understand why he wants to give a reasonably kind answer, and I think he did so very well.

quote:

I've turned down several commissions over the years because the customer wanted something I was unwilling to do.


This is interesting. I have also turned down many orders that I was unwilling to do. Basically, its so that if someone wants a guitar that does not look and sound like something I build, then the client should go somewhere else.
Typical examples are clients wanting conde headstocks and mosaic rose rosettes or want me to build using this, you know, flamenco guitar plan and finetune it the way another builder does. (I try not to stir up something here. please respect it, but the last example has happened many times over the years and thats why I put it here.)

Something new is that I have started turning down clients who have an attitude that I dont like. There are two types:
*the overcontrolling type that sends me a ton of mails in order to control everything I do.
*The overnervous type that sends a ton of mails about all the bad experiences that he/she has had with guitars and builders over the years.

I turn them down because they affect negatively my emotional end mental state of mind while I´m building. And that ends up affecting the final product

I like the interaction with my clients and the huge majority I consider to give me a very possitive experience. I like when clients are very intersted in details, that they have a lot of questions, but in the end, they have to trust me or trust some other builder.

Its not good for business. We the builders are supposed to be like the rest of society, well dressed, nice haircut, smiling and saying yes and of course and then cheating the client when he/she walks out the door.
The day I have to do so in order to survive, I close my workshop.


Very good and understandable comment. I fully agree.
In fact, i don't think its necessary to write anything to the builder, once he started building. Some email or tel exchanges at the beginning to make everything clear, then simply wait and let him do his job. Unless the builder himself should have comments or questions.

I guess the worst comments or question for good builders with own concepts are those such as "i want a guitar that sounds like a conde and looks like a reyes and feels like a santos" etc. type of comments. Each good builder has his own concept which should be respected and only if a buyer likes that as a whole, only then an order should be placed. Of course there are builders who make copies of different other designs, etc. But builders who created their own concepts during time and hard work and trying out different things should be treated differently.



edguerin -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 8:52:10)

Why didn't you tell him to go buy a Chinese guitar???



Ruphus -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 10:25:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson


*the overcontrolling type that sends me a ton of mails in order to control everything I do.


Though not charged of, I am guilty of this.
Actually, I wouldn´t call it controlling, but I did swamp a guitar builder with mails like possibly no other of his clients to date.
And I had twinges about it.
In fact, funny that you mention this today, because exactly last night I dreamed of typing him another e-mail asking him to please consider this and that while building ( with actually the guitar been finisihed already since some months now). And while dreaming that I felt bad about it, thinking to myself like: "Jeez, let the poor guy alone already with your hysterical fuzz all the time!"

Luckily the man is a very understanding and friendly spirit who did bear with me which I was and am very thankful for. Really nice guy!

I should remark however that my concerns were not about his skills at all.
Most were about visual details that had derived from a spontaneous decision to go with special material, which turned the project from humble appearance into a very specific ensemble.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

I guess the worst comments or question for good builders with own concepts are those such as "i want a guitar that sounds like a conde and looks like a reyes and feels like a santos" etc. type of comments.


Generally yes; and then again:

If the "Santos feeling" regards things like neck shape, scale and spacings then the builder should accept such specs self-evidently. ( But I am sure that you would agree on that anyway.)

Further, it could be that one has been taken with the builders typical output, and yet be dreaming of a certain concept in mind. Wanting a concept to be built with the luthier´s individual gift.

This is what I had with above mentioned instrument.
As I mentioned over the years on the forum, there was a Spanish guitar decades ago that enchanted me, without afterwards knowing the builder ( no clue at that time)/ where to look for, while no other guitar would come close to it.

And so, I tried to explain the characteristics to the guita builder. Hoping for him to nail that special make of my dreams, and providing in the same time in the back of my head that if he missed out on reconstructing that one, the product should still be a great one full of character.

I would had understood if he had rejected to try and follow my concept, hypothetically saying that he will realize exclusively his own ( which would had not kept me from ordering, as I adore the sound of his axes), but was thankful for his open-hearted attitude and will to try and incorporate the properties of my phantom guitar.


Guess what I am trying to say is that it is the right of fine builders to feel offended by customer requests on other ideals, and that yet some will not feel insulted when you ask, and possibly even try their best to match your fancy.
Provided naturally that you do appreciate their special skills and achievements in the first place.

I mean, that should be the main precondition anyway when a client approaches a builder.
Ideally he may not show up at the shop, because of some reputation or image that he heard of, but because of specific characteristics that made him pr!ck his ears.

For what its worth,

Ruphus



krichards -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 13:35:10)

No not too harsh

quote:

quote:

I've turned down several commissions over the years because the customer wanted something I was unwilling to do.


I no longer accept commissions either , for the same reasons. I make my guitars the way I want them and then whoever wants to, can buy one.

And I don't recommend anyone buys by placing a commission. The best way to buy is to try plenty of guitars and buy the one that suits you.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 15:51:26)

quote:

I no longer accept commissions either , for the same reasons. I make my guitars the way I want them and then whoever wants to, can buy one.

And I don't recommend anyone buys by placing a commission. The best way to buy is to try plenty of guitars and buy the one that suits you.


As far as I remember, you dont make a living making guitars or other instruments. If I´m right in saying that, maybe you can accept that I say thatits very easy to say what you say.
I would like to live in a world where i just had to give 10 guitars a year to god and then not worry by anything.
In the case you dont know it, its a pretty difficult task to make a living building instruments and its getting more difficult EVERY day.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 16:34:20)

As a customer and not a maker, I believe you should respect the individual preferences of the luthier. These can vary.

I bought several instruments from Jose Ramirez III. Though he did not build them with his own hands, the design was his and he supervised his builders very closely. Though friendly, cordial and talkative, his attitude toward his instruments was pretty much, "Take it or leave it." He had plenty of business at the time.

I bought several instruments for friends from the Mexico City luthier Juan Pimentel Ramirez. Pimentel was a man of few words. He seldom stopped working at the bench. When he invited you into the shop, he gave you a seat and got a guitar into your hands as soon as possible. Then he turned back to the bench and worked, listening carefully and occasionally glancing at the player. After I got to know him fairly well, I asked whether he tried to suit the instrument to the player's touch. "Por supuesto," was his reply.

Most recently I ordered a classical guitar from the Mexican luthier Abel Garcia Lopez, after hearing the virtuoso Carlos Bernal play a concert on one of his, and after playing the short scale instrument he made for his daughter. I told him I wanted a 54 mm nut and a 655 mm scale. Garcia remarked that he had made one like that for Pepe Romero. I picked out the Brazilian back and sides from sets he showed me. I told him I wanted a spruce top, but he was to pick out the wood, since he was the expert. He mentioned attending Romanillos's course in Spain and I told him how much I liked my Romanillos, but that was the only discussion we had with any implications about the playing characteristics of the instrument.

The Garcia is now the classical I play the most. I love it. The Romanillos may be a little better above the 12th fret, but it is 40 years old and the Garcia is still opening up.

For me a big part of the pleasure of buying a luthier built guitar is dealing with the luthier. Almost all professional luthiers I have met have inspired respect. I only hope the feeling has been mutual.

RNJ



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 16:38:41)

quote:

*the overcontrolling type that sends me a ton of mails in order to control everything I do.
*The overnervous type that sends a ton of mails about all the bad experiences that he/she has had with guitars and builders over the years.

I turn them down because they affect negatively my emotional end mental state of mind while I´m building. And that ends up affecting the final product


I have encountered exactly the same thing and have realized I have to be cautious about such people. I have also been requested to make other luthiers' headstock designs and refused. One guy even wanted me to make a copy of a living luthier's unusual design (Thomas Humphrey's Millenium guitar), which completely baffles me.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 16:43:49)

Richard, you sound like a fun person to work with. I was replying to Anders about people who changed their minds every day about every detail (rosette, bridge, action, nut width, etc.), after I'd already started building the guitar.



krichards -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 18:16:04)

quote:

As far as I remember, you dont make a living making guitars or other instruments. If I´m right in saying that, maybe you can accept that I say thatits very easy to say what you say.
I would like to live in a world where i just had to give 10 guitars a year to god and then not worry by anything.
In the case you dont know it, its a pretty difficult task to make a living building instruments and its getting more difficult EVERY day.


Anders, I understand exactly what you are saying, and I know how hard the professionals here have to work to make a living, and how the economic situation is so difficult. I admire you and applaud you.

I only make about three guitars a year, but that's because I cannot make more. You, I believe, have good health. Poor health changes everything!



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 9 2013 19:11:39)

quote:

You, I believe, have good health. Poor health changes everything!


Well, last tuesday, my doctor told me that he was 90% sure that I have Asthma. I´ve had lungproblems for some years. But because I had to take care of other persons with very serious problems (motorneurone dissease and asperger) I didnt have time for myself untill after this summer. I was away 3,5 month in summer and had absolutely no problems. I felt really good . Comming home and after 3 days of work, it all started again. I might have build up a allergy to my work and this may trigger an asthma that was lying there asleep. I´m now on medication and feeling better. Also, I´ve started building a violin and thats with other woods. No cedar especially.
Time will show if I can stay in business.



krichards -> [Deleted] (Nov. 9 2013 19:21:23)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 9 2013 20:13:35



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Was I too harsh? (Nov. 10 2013 1:06:04)

I'm sorry to hear about your asthma, Anders.

I have had various allergies to various woods and finishes. I now find it very helpful to have a whole shop air filtration system and to vacuum up any dust or shaving collection right away, and to wear a good dust mask when sanding--and have a fan blowing on me while finishing, due to the denaturant in the alcohol I use. I presume you do all of these things.

I even used to get a rash on my hand from one of the guitar woods, though I never figured out which one, and it stopped occurring.

Oh, and bending wood is a problem, too: Port Orford cedar, in particular, has so much resin in it that is vaporized when bending the traditional way that if I forget to position the fan so it blows some of that out of my face, then I cough for a couple of days afterwards.



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