junheng -> Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 28 2013 21:59:18)
Ok guys ... Sorry about this ... yet ANOTHER picado thread ... and from a beginner! ...
My question is ... When you're a beginner, should you drive the picado with the knuckle joints ... Or keep the knuckle joints completely straight and drive the movement with the middle finger joints (like PDL ... and Sabicas on occasions I've read)?
I am just starting to train picado now. In my main text ('El arte flemenca' by Juan Martin, pg 34) he's goes to great pains to emphasize that the movement should come from the knuckle joints. But in Graf Martinez's book (Flamenco Guitar Method vol 2, pg 29) he emphasizes that to get real speed like PDL's you MUST have straight knuckles and drive with the middle finger joints. He almost seems to say this is the only way to get a genuine flamenco picado.
I've spent the last hour and a half reading all the picado threads I can find on Foro, and they're really excellent, but I haven't come across anyone addressing this. Straight knuckles sounds kinda unhealthy to me (unnecessary tension) ... so I'm inclined to work on the relaxation and work from the knuckles. But this question is bugging me ...
Any advice guys?
Many thanks. junheng
Bulerias2005 -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 28 2013 22:04:52)
I don't think there is a definite answer to this question. Rather, I think it's a case of physiology and comfort while also taking into consideration what approaches have worked for other guitarists. Vicente doesn't bend his fingers while playing picado passages, but Paco does. Whose picado is faster? Despite listening to everything these guys have ever recorded, I have no idea; frankly, does it really matter when we're talking about such a high level of performance?
So in summary, I would do whatever is most comfortable for you! For whatever it's worth, I'm pretty proud of my picado and my hand position is similar to Vicente's, Jason McGuire's, Grisha's, etc...
Ricardo -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 28 2013 23:20:12)
quote:
ORIGINAL: junheng
Ok guys ... Sorry about this ... yet ANOTHER picado thread ... and from a beginner! ...
My question is ... When you're a beginner, should you drive the picado with the knuckle joints ... Or keep the knuckle joints completely straight and drive the movement with the middle finger joints (like PDL ... and Sabicas on occasions I've read)?
I am just starting to train picado now. In my main text ('El arte flemenca' by Juan Martin, pg 34) he's goes to great pains to emphasize that the movement should come from the knuckle joints. But in Graf Martinez's book (Flamenco Guitar Method vol 2, pg 29) he emphasizes that to get real speed like PDL's you MUST have straight knuckles and drive with the middle finger joints. He almost seems to say this is the only way to get a genuine flamenco picado.
I've spent the last hour and a half reading all the picado threads I can find on Foro, and they're really excellent, but I haven't come across anyone addressing this. Straight knuckles sounds kinda unhealthy to me (unnecessary tension) ... so I'm inclined to work on the relaxation and work from the knuckles. But this question is bugging me ...
Any advice guys?
Many thanks. junheng
Some big and long standing misconceptions. First of all, PDL and others do NOT drive power from middle finger joints. It is always BIG KNUCKLE joint that powers. What happens is the optical illusion from the front angle view that the knuckle joints are straight and flat and not moving much or at all. In fact the middle finger joints work to adjust the length discrepency between the i and m fingers so the middle simple bends a lot, and the index little bit, so the tips work more or less at equal lengths, making string crossings much easier. But the POWER comes from the knuckle.
Other players have the middle finger joints straight and the result is a very obvious movement of the big knuckle, but the only difference is that the finger tips are not the same distance from the strings (middle finger is longer). Some players over come this by playing picados i and a instead as they are much closer in length.
I find the other advantage to doing picados with bent middle finger joint is that there is almost no hand position change going between tirando technique (arpegio for example) and picado. that in theory can add to fluidity and control with musical phrases....but make no mistake. There are players that dont' mind shifting hand positions that are equally fluid and controlled as PDL and others. Paco Cepero for one.
I recommend careful study of some Manolo Sanlucar video footage at different angles, as he has a very controlled and relaxed approach to playing with the middle finger joints always bent.
Also Gerardo Nuñez shows both ways of doing picado very clearly in his encuentro video. People that claim the middle joint is ever powering rest strokes, is simply confused by the LOOK of the technique from certain angles.
Ricardo
Leñador -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 29 2013 0:40:06)
Is it at all possible that bent knuckle joints are just not effective for some peoples anatomy?? My teacher has harped on me for at least six months about getting my knuckles more bent for picado (he refers to Manolo all the time) and I've practiced it to the point that it's what I now do for basic picado, but as soon as I gain any decent speed my knuckles straighten out, i CAN NOT help it............
guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 29 2013 1:00:22)
The great boxers say that they punch from their feet !!!!
When we do things well we do them with our whole body.
D.
lukeofgod -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 29 2013 1:19:01)
It's all personal preference. I like Ricardo's break down of it all, very informative. PDL's I believe has a slight bent in his picado but sabicas picado fingers are completely straight. Also check out Javier Condes technique. He has the best flamenco technique in the world right now and he uses straight finger picado.
guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 29 2013 1:26:19)
quote:
ORIGINAL: lukeofgod
It's all personal preference.
It really isn't.
You are at liberty to choose the degree of curvature of the fingers that gives you the sound you want but you strike with the whole finger. If you try and strike by increasing the curvature then your body will probably ignore you and strike from the main knuckle. However if you insist one the small knuckle and your body tries to do as you tell it then then the results will be awful.
D.
jg7238 -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 29 2013 1:44:28)
Do not try and imitate the Maestros because like Daniel said, physiology plays a big factor. What works for one player may be totally awkward for another. If you are getting the proper tone and feel comfortable doing it, then it doesn't matter what you are doing in my opinion. Focus on getting good picado tone first then speed. Just experiment a bit and see how it goes then take it from there.
Bulerias2005 -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 29 2013 1:48:45)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jg7238
Do not try and imitate the Maestros because like Daniel said, physiology plays a big factor. What works for one player may be totally awkward for another. If you are getting the proper tone and feel comfortable doing it, then it doesn't matter what you are doing in my opinion. Focus on getting good picado tone first then speed. Just experiment a bit and see how it goes then take it from there.
Good point, Juan, I actually forgot to mention tone -- like you said, it's definitely something that needs to be prioritized over speed, at least initially.
hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 29 2013 14:39:26)
Adam del Monte on one of his Youtube vids says that the power should come from the large knuckle because it's the biggest and therefore the strongest. He's no doubt a great player but I think it's obvious to anyone who does a bit of experimenting that he is wrong. Both the large knuckle and middle knuckle are strong. Compare the force needed to move a finger from the large knuckle and then the small knuckle and you'll see that both require a lot of force. Both methods allow the string to be plucked with a lot of power.
I started of playing for about 1 year with very straight right hand fingers and then came across Graff Martinez's book and switched to bent fingers, middle knuckle. I've been playing like this for 9 years or so. Using the middle knuckle can make it difficult for someone watching to work out where the power is coming from because it's possible to play with bent fingers and have the power come mainly from the large knuckle. Only the player will know.
hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 29 2013 23:07:34)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jg7238
Focus on getting good picado tone first then speed. Just experiment a bit and see how it goes then take it from there.
I would argue the other way. First get the strength and speed (using very short or even no nails) and then worry about tone once the fingers are more developed.
Ricardo -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 0:53:02)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lenador
Is it at all possible that bent knuckle joints are just not effective for some peoples anatomy?? My teacher has harped on me for at least six months about getting my knuckles more bent for picado (he refers to Manolo all the time) and I've practiced it to the point that it's what I now do for basic picado, but as soon as I gain any decent speed my knuckles straighten out, i CAN NOT help it............
Simply put, straight fingers is more "natural". Most players will first do this. Practice makes perminant. Most people doing bent knuckles acknowledge it is weird at first, picked it up from watching someone or were taught it. THere is a reason for doing it, and that is that. In the end there will be different methods and different results because we are all different. Physically there is no reason why every player can't do it, save frozen joints or something.
ToddK -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 2:03:49)
We're talking leverage here, not strength. Knuckles in and of themselves provide no strength. They are just joints.
Tip joint= distal Middle joint=proximal Large joint= Metacarpal Phalangeal
The metacarpal phalangeal joints provide the most leverage.
The distal and proximal joints do not provide enough.
These are facts by the way, not opinions.
hamia -> [Deleted] (Jun. 30 2013 5:04:27)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 30 2013 5:08:28
hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 6:33:36)
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToddK
Large joint= Metacarpal Phalangeal
The metacarpal phalangeal joints provide the most leverage.
The distal and proximal joints do not provide enough.
These are facts by the way, not opinions.
The middle knuckle is certainly strong enough to pluck the string with force. To realize the strength of the middle knuckle you only have to see how easy it is to lift a heavy bar with large knuckle straight and the middle knuckle bent (i.e. using the finger tips). I can pluck the strings just as loudly using the middle knuckle as I can with the large knuckle. But I don't think it's really a question of strength and power - both large and small knuckles are more than adequate. I suspect that the advantage with the middle knuckle method is that it allows for small, repeatable movements with fast recovery time.
Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 30 2013 9:17:23)
[Deleted by Admins]
hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 9:40:32)
quote:
ORIGINAL: D_VDER
Gotta disagree with you on that, not just for guitar, but for any instrument.
What one practices one gets good at. If one practices speed at the expense of tone, one gets good at playing fast with bad tone. One only has to listen to Larry Coryell to know that is true.
Yet another thing one would have to go back and unlearn.
I do believe that playing with power helps with tone, as it gives one more dynamic control, but that's separate from speed.
Well, with the middle knuckle method there aren't actually many variables. The right hand forearm and wrist are straight and move as a fixed unit so that the hand shape doesn't change whether you are playing the 1st or 6th string. And when playing picado the hand is held so that the knuckle line is parallel to the strings. The outcome of this is that the right hand fingers always hit the strings the same way. Why would you want to let tone dictate the right hand position? First get the strength and speed and then just grow your nails a bit longer and file them to get the required tone. Maybe I am working the opposite way to you. I think you want good tone and then adjust the position of your right hand fingers to get that tone. My way is to decide on the right hand position I want (for better or worse!) and then worry about tone later.
But in fact for picado tone is somewhat of a non-issue. You will be hitting the strings hard and fast and the influence of nail shape will be less evident than when playing slowly.
El Kiko -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 9:55:33)
quote:
My way is to decide on the right hand position I want (for better or worse!) and then worry about tone later.
I cant see that being a good idea at all ......if you go back a few posts and read jg7238 s post i think that is the way to go .....
there should be some experimentation to get comfortable and that it sounds right ....in tone ....you can get a lot of things right in a short time,, the only thing left is that its a too slow , apart form that ......
(having said all that my picado is not good and get worse after 5 fastish notes ...0
guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 10:56:16)
A scientific experiment to try.
Hold you hand in front of you, waggle a finger from the main joint=fast and free and powerful.
Waggle only the end half (from the middle joint) = tight and weak.
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
You are at liberty to choose the degree of curvature of the fingers that gives you the sound you want but you strike with the whole finger. If you try and strike by increasing the curvature then your body will probably ignore you and strike from the main knuckle. However if you insist one the small knuckle and your body tries to do as you tell it then then the results will be awful.
D.
Feel free to continue.
D.
hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 12:38:51)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
A scientific experiment to try.
Hold you hand in front of you, waggle a finger from the main joint=fast and free and powerful.
Waggle only the end half (from the middle joint) = tight and weak.
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
You are at liberty to choose the degree of curvature of the fingers that gives you the sound you want but you strike with the whole finger. If you try and strike by increasing the curvature then your body will probably ignore you and strike from the main knuckle. However if you insist one the small knuckle and your body tries to do as you tell it then then the results will be awful.
D.
Feel free to continue.
D.
D.
I'm waggling 2 fingers. It feels good - I think you're on to something.
guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 12:44:03)
quote:
ORIGINAL: hamia
I'm waggling 2 fingers. It feels good -
I know !!!!
guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 12:48:56)
Seriously though fold those two fingers in tight and waggle em lets say imim.
Try and do it without involving the main knuckle (you test by looking).I will be very interested if you can do that and at what speed.
D.
junheng -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 16:59:29)
Wow guys. What a torrent of replies. Much appreciated!
I've been quiet for the last couple of days as I took Ricardo's advice and tracked down every bit of Manolo Sanlucar and Gerardo Nuñez that I could find on the internet - which meant just Youtube. Also some of PdL.
1st, apologies as my original post was deficient. I only considered the possibilities of (a) straight (big) knuckles (ie metacarpophalangeal joints); and (b) bent (big) knuckles (ie metacarpophalangeal joints) ... but I now see there is also the issue that (c) the next joint out (ie proximal interphalangeal joint) could be straight or bent.
Anyway, here go my thoughts based on looking at about 5 hours of Youtube footage of these giants of guitar:
1. I agree with Ricardo's observation that even PdL *does* in fact move his big knuckles, though this movement gets smaller the faster he does his picado and becomes a very fine vibration at the highest speeds. What this shows is that the big-knuckle-movement issue is not a black-and-white, all-or-mothing, do-or-die situation. There is a *continuum* here. I must say that I am surprised that Graf Martinez put the extreme view forward as he did (see my first post in this thread). 2. I'll pass on the issue of whether the FORCE is coming from the big knuckles or further up the finger. I think I'll let the 'force' issue take care of itself. 3. However, I will pay some attention to how I *hold* the fingers, ie position-wise. I was really enamoured by Sanlucar's relaxed right hand with the fingers gently bent even while doing his fastest picado - and he still manages to execute some blisteringly fast picado with this style. It is also evident that he is able to switch between picado and so many other different techniques with barely a move in that relaxed right hand; at times you even wonder if he's doing anything with his right hand. I have decided to make this my goal for now. 4. Just btw ... I found the Youtube footage of Gerardo Nuñez puzzling ... In all the footage that I saw, I could only detect one 5-second spurt of picado! All his playing pretty much looked like tirando and rasgueado.
--- Bulerias2005 => I'm with you regarding the 'do what's comfortable' thing, but I think some focossed direction is also necessary (see below).
Ricardo => Yes, I can see the sense in your analysis. And thank you for introducing me to Sanlucar. I'm on the trad side (rather than nuevo) so I appreciate his harmonies and melodies, which sound more traditional to me.
Lenador => Interesting! Well, I might end up in your shoes in a few years. We'll see! :)
guitarbuddha => Well said about the 'whole body' thing. I am a massage practitioner and agree with you 100%.
lukeofgod => Very interesting ... I dug up this bit of Sabicas (go to 5:19-5:24) where his picado is very much with bent (big) knuckles and blisteringly fast. I confess that I forgot to look up Javier Condes. I will look him up as you suggest.
jg7238 => Well, in my 7 years of dancing (ballroom and latin) I learned that just 'doing what's natural' usually doesn't work and is usually not the most ergonomic. Prior to dancing (and during my early dancing years) I had developed all sorts of unhelpful (non-ergonomic) habits in order to comply with social norms, deal with physical and psychological issues, and to comply with the instructions of poor teachers (which actually caused physical injury). Usually, in dancing you have to positively re-train the body's reflexes at the synapse (ie spine) level as well as within the brain ... but you also have to 'listen' to your body at the same time ... as you say, individuality *does* come into it too. In dance, you have to pull together many different strands (verbal instruction, your own ideas of technique from different sources and the feedback from your body) and be sensitive to all possibilities :)
hamia, D_VDER and El Kiko => Thank your for your ideas here. I'll pass on the force issue for now. Sounds too difficult to work out right now. javascript:void(AddText('[&:]'))
Cheers! junheng
El Kiko -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 20:36:38)
maybe we should have some kind of mini .picado / challenge/ comparison type of thing ... close up of a few scales done by us and sorted out by us as to why , or not , it works and how to get what is best ...if that means anything ?
lukeofgod -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 21:01:05)
quote:
ORIGINAL: El Kiko
maybe we should have some kind of mini .picado / challenge/ comparison type of thing ... close up of a few scales done by us and sorted out by us as to why , or not , it works and how to get what is best ...if that means anything ?
Great Idea
guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 21:01:58)
quote:
ORIGINAL: El Kiko
maybe we should have some kind of mini .picado / challenge/ comparison type of thing ... close up of a few scales done by us and sorted out by us as to why , or not , it works and how to get what is best ...if that means anything ?
Apparently not otherwise Juan's advice wouldn't have been so easily discounted. I certainly don't discount it.
If you insist on comparing then decency suggests we should do it privately, here lets go behind this bush.....
I know of two (and two of the best) players here who have reported damaging their hands after trying to play with more curvature. One is Grisha but he no longer posts because of threads like this. The other hurt himself and has still to recover fully.
But what do I know ?
D.
D.
junheng -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jun. 30 2013 21:20:23)
Ok guys. So I just sat down to start training picado and ... I realize I'm not even clear about the basic mechanics of the strokes.
Say I start my picado on the first string (closest to the floor) and I am doing i-m on each string:
1. Starting with both fingers (right i and m) resting on the 1st string. 2. I pluck the first string with i, at the same time raising m (by say 1/2 inch) so that the 1st string can sound. And my i lands resting against the 2nd string (apoyando). 3. I then pluck the first string with m so that m lands resting against the 2nd string (apoyando), right next to i, which is still sitting there on the 2nd string.
I then repeat steps 2 and 3 for the 2nd string. Then the 3rd string. And so on.
This feels fine. But it has just occurred to me that there is an asymmetry here; my i strokes are starting from resting on each string, but my m strokes are actually *striking* each string (from say 1/2 inch above). Is this correct???
I can see an alternative ... During step 3, when m strikes the 1st string and rests against the 2nd string, I could raise i AT THE SAME TIME away from the 2nd string. Actually ... come to think of it ... IF I were doing four strokes (i-m-i-m) on each string I would *have* to do this. So maybe this alternative is the standard method to employ throughout, whether i-m or i-m-i-m or any picado?
In other words ... In picado should you EVER have both i and m resting against a string? Or, on the other hand, should there ALWAYS be one finger (i or m) in the air?
Help!!! please :)
junheng
guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jun. 30 2013 21:28:01)
One one string think can-can.
D.
El Kiko -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jun. 30 2013 22:06:17)
Ok how about this for an explanation with an few exercises ....
pink -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jun. 30 2013 22:09:54)
Way to easy to over complicate things here by expecting that the correct technique will present itself to you in a very short space of time. Touch the strings, feel the guitar, enjoy the sound, the texture and just get to know it. Your hands will develop their own touch the longer you play and thus your own technique will evolve....you will read,watch,listen shout , swear ...do all the things a human is pre programmed to do whilst you learn,but be sure that if you want to play then you will learn. No right way , no wrong way. You work on bodies and as you know our bodies have the habit of being able to do some extraordinary things if we allow them to . Don't force it just listen to what your body says to you and accept. As we learn more technique then we adapt what we know naturally to get it right for ourselves. Good luck and enjoy. pink
