RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Full Version)

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guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jun. 30 2013 23:45:33)

That really makes it clear. All of the motion is instigated from the main joint and you would need to be blind to miss it.

The muscles controlling the tip joint have to work harder to MAINTAIN the angle but the power is coming from the big joint.

Think of it like swimming the front crawl. You cup your hand to increase friction but you are not swimming with your hand you are using your whole body or you are a terrible swimmer.

Would you recommend a fledgling swimmer to strap his arms to his sides and swim with his hands ?

D.



jg7238 -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 1 2013 1:13:02)

quote:

I am just starting to train picado now.



Practice these exercises.. They are good for both hands. Use IM and MA is optional. Left hand pattern for first exercise is 1234 1432, etc.. ascending. 2nd exercise is 12421 13431, etc.. ascending as well.





Leñador -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 2:07:32)

That's not right Juan.........[:D]
Insanity.....



Bulerias2005 -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 2:18:42)

Here's a short exercise I used to do:

And a brief demo, the scale passage from the Chaconne and some random noodling: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2282175931443&set=vb.1160186455&type=3&theater



hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 1 2013 3:26:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junheng

There is a *continuum* here. I must say that I am surprised that Graf Martinez put the extreme view forward as he did (see my first post in this thread).




Yes, I agree that GM is too extreme. The large knuckle plays a role in moving the fingers and also provides some power to the stroke. But the middle knuckle really does make a significant contribution (if you play this way). And one that's pretty difficult to spot visually. The middle knuckle contribution starts when the finger tip hits the string - it pulls the string back parallel to the top (PdL moves it parallel although Vicente seems to push down - probably requiring more large knuckle contribution). The total movement of the finger tip from hitting the string to resting on the one behind is very small (less than 1 cm depending on the thickness of your finger). This is why the middle knuckle contribution is hard to spot. The feeling when playing is of a snappy and powerful follow through and as if the fingers are continually gripping the string.

I'm not really that proficient with it yet and when trying to play fast my fingers want to straighten out. But I have no doubt that this is how PdL is doing picado.



ToddK -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 4:40:20)

Imagine when swimming a front stroke, and moving the arm
only from the elbow instead of the shoulder.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 6:38:13)

Must be the summer picado season.

The analogy with leg or arm movement is interesting. Certainly we do few movements without both joints participating.

I used to play in a very simple way, just moving my fingers back and forth. I kept my nails very short and relied on brute force and nail shape to displace the string. Fingertips were kept stiff. There was no visible middle joint movement. Unfortunately, this way did not ultimately seem right to me. It seemed to take too much force for too little result. I plateaued at a certain point and also got a chronic tendonitis in the middle joint of the m finger.

Now I touch the string, push it in toward the soundboard, and release the finger. The push seems to plainly be driven from the knuckle joint, and the release seems to be mostly middle joint. The tips are much more active, and especially m needs to relax and give somewhat to the string. The result is a stroke that feels better, smoother, and more stable.

Even though these two ways feel completely different to me, they rely on just about the same angle and for the most part look the same from the outside.



Ruphus -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 1 2013 9:03:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pink

Way to easy to over complicate things here by expecting that the correct technique will present itself to you in a very short space of time. Touch the strings, feel the guitar, enjoy the sound, the texture and just get to know it. Your hands will develop their own touch the longer you play and thus your own technique will evolve....you will read,watch,listen shout , swear ...do all the things a human is pre programmed to do whilst you learn,but be sure that if you want to play then you will learn. No right way , no wrong way. You work on bodies and as you know our bodies have the habit of being able to do some extraordinary things if we allow them to . Don't force it just listen to what your body says to you and accept. As we learn more technique then we adapt what we know naturally to get it right for ourselves.
Good luck and enjoy.
pink



That seems no good avice at all, Pink.
In a civilisation so detouched from natural being that kids suffer all kind of motoric misconception, it should be more than clear that your body will NOT tell you most ergonomical ways.
It would need certain preconditions first, and whether those suffice for something as special like guitar playing shows to be rather questionable still.

People cherrish the idea of body matters settling in by default and at best even with something like instinct for humans ( who have none ), leaving out that we are no lemur.

Relying on your body and precondidtional routines to execute guitar techniques will work out for a very small minority, and be a needlessly winded often times hard to repair road for the vast majority.

Let beginners´ questions be answered as technically profound as possible.
... Sometimes it will even help advanced players, justby remembering certain aspects while giving / reading advice on useful approach.

Ruphus



junheng -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 12:26:14)

Thank you, El Kiko, some superbly detailed and lucid instruction in that video. And thank you, jg7238 and Bullerias2005 for those great practice ideas.

I'm just struggling right now with the more basic question of what the movements are supposed to be when you're doing an even number of strokes (say i-m) from 1st string (furthest from head) to 6th string .. is it supposed to be a simple walking action with one finger always going into the air when the other finger strikes? ... Or should i *remain* on the string it 'rests' on while m strikes ... and then i 'strikes' the string it's resting on afterwards?

The former is what I think I am seeing in the video footage I'm looking at on Youtube. But when I had some lessons many years ago I acquired the habit (rightly or wrongly) of doing the latter, ie keeping the i finger down on the next string while m struck the current string.

On a positive note, I've just discovered that I can play movies one frame at a time if I open them in Windows Movie Maker, which is included within the Windows OS. Cool ...

:) junheng



guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 12:53:37)

Have you seen the can-can danced ? That was no throwaway comment.

Practice like that and it should give you some perspective.
And that is what you need experience and the perspectives it gives. Simple answers often halt this process.

I am glad that you have noticed how much Juan (JG has to offer) now.


D.



junheng -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 13:26:46)

Hi guitarbuddha. Ah, I get the can-can thing now. Sorry, a bit slow on the uptake I am!

Well, if that's it, then I will train that. It does make sense (natural walking movement); it just feels strange cos it's different from what I learned years ago.

Btw, I don't disregard what JG said earlier. I just believe there should be a balance ... between following instruction and 'listening to your body'.

David ;)



guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 13:31:58)

Take everything with a pinch of salt and you'll be fine.

I've got a confession to make, I mostly work on three finger picado now. Not as powerful but much less tiring than two.

D.



El Kiko -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 1 2013 17:59:14)

I thought Juan (jg7238 ) was going to explode at fret 17.......[:D]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 1 2013 21:17:36)

[Deleted by Admins]



Ricardo -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 2 2013 4:14:49)

quote:

PdL moves it parallel although Vicente seems to push down - probably requiring more large knuckle contribution).


No, they drive the string the same way, down. The string pulls a little up naturally until it slips off the nail, but the idea is like a hammer where the fist is your knuckle, the handle is the part between knuckle and middle joint, the hammer head is the rest of the finger due to the bent middle joint, the tip joint is not to flex totally back, but in the case of middle finger it has to flex a little because of the way the finger is "hammered" into the string driving toward the top (not pulled parallel as you say). Clear example:

2:30



and 5:30


Vicente doing the same at 4:18 with no where near the same efficiency of movement, but same idea never the less. Index is a little more straight than Paco, but middle finger same exact deal:



Blondie#2 -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 2 2013 8:06:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

PdL moves it parallel although Vicente seems to push down - probably requiring more large knuckle contribution).


No, they drive the string the same way, down.


I don't think it's quite so black and white and I'd say Paco's Picado does involve some parallel movement too, more so than players who play with an extended middle joint.

I find it very hard to tell exactly what's going on in the links above, or any performance video really, due to the speed. However, check this out, I don't think anyone's posted this before-

Check out the following page from Graf Martinez website showing a slow motion close up of Paco's picado. Hover over Paco's (bottom right icon in the small pics). Watch what happens when his finger plays the 2nd string (planting on '1', stroke happens at '2') and also note how far the 3rd string is displaced parallel to the top as a result of the direction of travel of that finger too:

http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-guitar/players/

IMO Its driven from the large knuckle as you say, and initially towards the top but but with a visible flexion in the middle joint that displaces the string towards the lower adjacent string also.

[Incidentally, as GM's description in his book was earlier described as 'extreme' , interesting to note that to a certain extent he agrees. His explanation for his approach (in which he says all joints have to be involved in the stroke) is below the pics, though I don't agree with all his conclusions.]



hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 2 2013 10:54:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: D_VDER

I guess we may be talking cross-purposes, seeing as I play with a pick (did I say that out loud?). [:)]

My point was a broader one and not confined to picado: that you get good at what you practice and if you don't practice with the tone correct first, sooner or later, you have to come back and learn it again. My view: get it right first time.

Certainly true from my point of view, but heard many times elsewhere (including my dear departed father, who was a professional classical musician).

Just my opinion.


Yes, that could be true.

I would say though that the flat hand picado method (whether middle knuckle or large knuckle) isn't one that can be (or should be) tinkered around with to change tone. And it doesn't need to be. Flamenco runs are played staccato, close to the bridge. A classical player won't be trying to emulate this! The right hand and forearm are in a straight line, the hand is flattish, you are playing close the bridge. What variables are left for varying tone? Almost none except nail shape and length. So just cut the nails as short as possible to catch the string.

And when playing slower the top of the right arm will be lower, resting on the top of the guitar (unless you are tall) and then there is more opportunity to vary the tone.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 2 2013 11:57:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

The right hand and forearm are in a straight line, the hand is flattish, you are playing close the bridge. What variables are left for varying tone? Almost none except nail shape and length.




Please permit me an analogy. I met Mike Tyson, he was twenty six at the time. We both used the same gloves and stood the same distance apart (toe to toe) he hit me hard !! Do you really believe that I hit back just as hard ?

A big part of the quality of the tone comes from muscular support, precision, and ,when playing runs with more than on note, the ability to relax and recover rapidly.

D.



hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 2 2013 14:07:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

The right hand and forearm are in a straight line, the hand is flattish, you are playing close the bridge. What variables are left for varying tone? Almost none except nail shape and length.




Please permit me an analogy. I met Mike Tyson, he was twenty six at the time. We both used the same gloves and stood the same distance apart (toe to toe) he hit me hard !! Do you really believe that I hit back just as hard ?

A big part of the quality of the tone comes from muscular support, precision, and ,when playing runs with more than on note, the ability to relax and recover rapidly.

D.


Right. But all that is just what is involved in playing picado. And you don't build up strength and speed by worrying about tone. You do it by playing for hours and hours, small repetitive movements. And what is there in hitting a string with a bent finger that won't give good tone. The picado method I am talking about will give you good tone - because you will be hitting the string straight on (which is fine for tone), short nails (also ok), and with power (also good). So I fail to see the problem. Playing picado with a flat hand will produce tone - and more importantly it will be staccato.

You're on the ropes here I think D.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 2 2013 14:18:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia


1.Right. But all that is just what is involved in playing picado. And you don't build up strength and speed by worrying about tone. You do it by playing for hours and hours, small repetitive movements.


2. And what is there in hitting a string with a bent finger that won't give good tone.


3. The picado method I am talking about will give you good tone - because you will be hitting the string straight on (which is fine for tone), short nails (also ok), and with power (also good). So I fail to see the problem. Playing picado with a flat hand will produce tone - and more importantly it will be staccato.

4.You're on the ropes here I think D.



1. Not true
2. False oposition, I have never said that bent fingers won't give good tone for flamenco.
3.Without using your ears nothing is gauranteed.
4.Only in your head.

D.



Ricardo -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 2 2013 15:22:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

The right hand and forearm are in a straight line, the hand is flattish, you are playing close the bridge. What variables are left for varying tone? Almost none except nail shape and length.




Please permit me an analogy. I met Mike Tyson, he was twenty six at the time. We both used the same gloves and stood the same distance apart (toe to toe) he hit me hard !! Do you really believe that I hit back just as hard ?

A big part of the quality of the tone comes from muscular support, precision, and ,when playing runs with more than on note, the ability to relax and recover rapidly.

D.


Don't forget timing and efficiency of motion.

quote:

I find it very hard to tell exactly what's going on in the links above, or any performance video really, due to the speed. However, check this out, I don't think anyone's posted this before-


I find the vids crystal clear. The motion is the same the idea is the same, only the extension of fingers at middle joint of index tend to vary the most... a lot of just that is because of where the thumb ends up holding the hand. But the idea of pulling up the string with the middle joint is simply wrong. It happens yes, because the string hooked under the nail has no choice, but the point of the attack is down into the top, which happens more with bent fingers than with straight fingers pointed at the top which actually do pull up ward the more straight on you play.

quote:

Almost none except nail shape and length. So just cut the nails as short as possible to catch the string.


Nail shape is important too. Especially with glue or other protection involved that hardens the nail. It is not about just having em short. I can hear how a player files from picados, it is either a crisp tone or a brittle hard tone, simple as that. Manolo, Paco, Tomatito, Chicuelo, Enrique del melchor, Vicente, Gerardo, have a crisp tone due to filing across the curve. Many new guys like Diego del morao, Rey, Jesus del Rosario, Tuto, Javier Conde, have contoured to the tip type shape. Its pretty clear to me since I experimented a lot with different shapes when I was younger.



lukeofgod -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 3 2013 7:03:25)



Watch the master of picado....



Cisco -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 5 2013 15:46:45)

Found this. Roll over the thumbnails:
http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-guitar/players/index.html



Leñador -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 5 2013 16:06:47)

quote:

Found this. Roll over the thumbnails:
http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-guitar/players/index.html


That's really cool! Good enough to convince me, I'm done with my flat fingers............



Flamencito -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 5 2013 16:40:33)

So i am lucky to never (really) have been studing picado before. My teacher is also still experimenting with the paco style technique, so i wonder if he is able to teach me that. Is there any good explaination somewhere on the net how to train this curved picado in the proper way? (Preferably a video)

And are there any foro members having this tecnique under their belt?
Cheers



Leñador -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 5 2013 17:14:21)

I just watched the Grisha video and his picado looks a lot more like mine and not so much like the Maestros on that Graf Martinez thing who all look pretty similar. Is it just me?? Or maybe the perspective at which it was recorded? They all seem pretty bent fingered and he seemed pretty straight no???

Anything to reinforce my straight finger [:D] lol



jg7238 -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 5 2013 19:43:52)

Here, watch the boss... Not an explanation but you get a good view of his right hand.




hamia -> RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle (Jul. 6 2013 2:48:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I find the vids crystal clear. The motion is the same the idea is the same, only the extension of fingers at middle joint of index tend to vary the most... a lot of just that is because of where the thumb ends up holding the hand. But the idea of pulling up the string with the middle joint is simply wrong. It happens yes, because the string hooked under the nail has no choice, but the point of the attack is down into the top, which happens more with bent fingers than with straight fingers pointed at the top which actually do pull up ward the more straight on you play.



I find the vids clear too - but come to a different conclusion!

The finger hitting the string will move the string at some angle, not purely parallel nor purely downwards into the soundboard. There will therefore be components of force in both these directions. The middle knuckle method (as done by Paco in the top video, and as done by me when I play at moderate speed) imparts a substantial component in the parallel direction. I can see and feel it when I play.

A lot of people doubt this method and I can understand why. It takes absolutely ages to get any good at it. It is not intuitive and no one would ever naturally play this way if left to their own devices. I remember many years back Ron said he tried it out and found it was unworkable. This will be a common reaction. It is not possible to simply decide to try middle knuckle picado out for a few months or so and come up with any meaningful evaluation (let alone progress). It requires years of practice.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 6 2013 2:55:11)

Lenador, I hope you are not considering changing your established picado technique because of what Graf-Martinez said. His claims are at the least, extreme. The way you are playing might suit your hands, while the other way might suit other hands. There are plenty of counterexamples to his claim that the Paco way is the only true way, for example: Grisha, Sabicas. It might be a good idea to start with your technique and take it as far as you can before starting over.



Blondie#2 -> RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question! (Jul. 6 2013 7:31:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cisco
Found this. Roll over the thumbnails:
http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-guitar/players/index.html


You mean you found it seven posts above yours where I posted it? Well it saves folk reading back that far I guess [;)]



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