encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Full Version)

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Tom Blackshear -> encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 21 2013 14:55:13)

I just got an e-mail from my friend Carlos Rodriguez who recently visited the Manuel Reyes guitar shop in Cordoba Spain. He said he was quite impressed with Manuel Jr. and showed him my Reyes style model. Manuel's impression was that the guitar did everything you would want it to.

It's nice to know that there is mutual love and respect with the top builders that know their place and responsibilities to serve their fellow man, with the whole heart. Carlos is touring Spain and giving concerts in the different cities. The next city will be Madrid.

this first part was the guitar Manuel inspected.



Ramon Amira -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 26 2013 4:02:37)

quote:

I just got an e-mail from my friend Carlos Rodriguez who recently visited the Manuel Reyes guitar shop in Cordoba Spain. He said he was quite impressed with Manuel Jr. and showed him my Reyes style model. Manuel's impression was that the guitar did everything you would want it to.



Well, as a gentleman you could hardly expect him to say anything else.

I have played a number of Manuel Reyes copies by different luthiers, and while they were very good guitars, they simply cannot compare to a Reyes, padre or hijo, nor do I think the builders really suppose that they do.

Ramon



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 26 2013 12:32:38)

Very true, and this was to show that Manuel Jr was happy with the replica of his father's work, as a fellow builder, nothing else.

Every individual builder has his own style and this was to demonstrate that the design works for purposes that guide it to its final outcome.

Any design or a similar design can be tweaked to sound more like its original intended purpose or toward other tonal qualities that exhibit each builder's own work.

So, the design is only part of the process. Voicing is the final avenue toward it becoming art, and developing each builder's propio sello.... personal stamp.

Thanks for your input.



Sr. Martins -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 26 2013 14:01:41)

Is this the right time to grab some pipocas? [sm=tongue.gif]



Ruphus -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 26 2013 14:11:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic



Well, as a gentleman you could hardly expect him to say anything else.

I have played a number of Manuel Reyes copies by different luthiers, and while they were very good guitars, they simply cannot compare to a Reyes, padre or hijo, nor do I think the builders really suppose that they do.

Ramon


Would he be less of gentleman if he said something to the extend of: "Not bad" / "Nice guitar" or so?

From what I hear in recordings with Tom´s guitars I could think of them being truly appreciated by any of his colleagues.

This is not to exclude on principle that a good Reyes could still be ahead, but that Tom´s appear so fine to my ears that his guitar might have been accepted for more than just matters of etiquette.

It would be interesting to hear how you experience a guitar of his when you come to try one out.

Ruphus



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 26 2013 15:26:40)

Thanks Ruphus but Santos, et al, were the teachers of many top builders in Spain today and those who stayed with his tradition are the builders who are doing some of the finest work, imho.

No doubt, Reyes, Barbero, and A. Fernandez were some of the students who learned from Santos, even via the original guitars of this fellow. We all pick up certain techniques and utility from those who go before us.

I think the important thing to realize is that we all have something to offer the playing world after many years of perfecting our art.

Poncho Navarro received the Reyes plan from me and what little I showed him about the voicing and top function. He will go far with the knowledge that he has accumulated over the many years of his building career.

He is currently working out a deal with Vicente Amigo for a model to be sold in Spain for V.A.

Are my hands better than Navarro's hands? Not hardly, it's really a matter of building and voicing each guitar to the individual makers personal stamp. This is what sets all builders apart.

And this is reason enough to show love and respect for each other.



Ramon Amira -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 26 2013 16:26:46)

I commented on this in the first place to help correct some misapprehensions. I sell Navarro guitars, and a number of potential clients seem to have thought that if they bought one of Poncho’s Reyes models that they would be in essence getting a Reyes, for a fraction of the cost. They have even asked me things like “Does it sound like a Reyes?”

So I’m trying to make clear for anyone interested that this is not the case. I’d like to reiterate that the copies I have played have all been very fine guitars, that look good, sound good, and are full concert guitars in their own right, and are well worth their price. But a potential buyer should not suppose that he’s going to get a guitar that sounds like a Reyes.

Ramon



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 26 2013 17:03:15)

This is certainly well worth noting, that no maker will sound exactly like a Reyes, anymore than Paco Lucia's music, played by another guitarist, will sound exactly like Paco.

With guitar building technology today, most any educated builder will make a fine instrument worth its price. But when all guitars are basically balanced with everything in its place, then it's the voice that compels us.

BTW, I don't think you can beat a Navarro guitar, price per quality, with his current building practice. I would like to see him use a more perfect bridge shape for his Reyes model but aside from that polite suggestion, I have no criticisms at all.



hamia -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 27 2013 3:11:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear


BTW, I don't think you can beat a Navarro guitar, price per quality, with his current building practice. I would like to see him use a more perfect bridge shape for his Reyes model but aside from that polite suggestion, I have no criticisms at all.


I bought a new Navarro Reyes blanca model a few months ago as I'd been hearing good things about them. I ordered on-line so didn't check it out before buying. The guitar looks fabulous and is well set up. The downside is that it's heavy and not very loud or responsive. My Green blanca just blows it away.



Morante -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 27 2013 15:22:12)

quote:

I bought a new Navarro Reyes blanca model a few months ago as I'd been hearing good things about them. I ordered on-line so didn't check it out before buying. The guitar looks fabulous and is well set up. The downside is that it's heavy and not very loud or responsive. My Green blanca just blows it away.


Maybe you got a Rejes Hijo model by mistake![;)]



Ramon Amira -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 27 2013 22:01:11)

quote:

quote:

I bought a new Navarro Reyes blanca model a few months ago as I'd been hearing good things about them. I ordered on-line so didn't check it out before buying. The guitar looks fabulous and is well set up. The downside is that it's heavy and not very loud or responsive. My Green blanca just blows it away.

Maybe you got a Rejes Hijo model by mistake!




I know you’re just joking around, but of course the humor depends on the premise that Manuel Reyes Hijo’s guitars are inferior to his father’s, but I can tell you that that is definitely not the case.

MR Hijo makes fabulous fantastic sounding guitars, every bit as good as Padre. Interestingly, in an interview done in the sixties, Padre told the interviewer, “If God grants me a son, I would like to teach him.” Apparently God did, and he did.

Ramon



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 27 2013 23:00:59)

quote:

My Green blanca just blows it away.


I gather that you are referring to Aaron Green's guitar. How much did you pay for it?

For the record, I said, I don't think you can beat a Navarro guitar, "price per quality," with his current building practice, Navarro's guitars are hard to beat.

Let's be fair with it..... Price for quality, Navarro's guitars are hard to beat.

And if you would choose one of my guitars, the price starts at $10,500.

And if you chose one of Manuel's son's guitars the price would be clearly into the teens somewhere.

Aaron deserves a lot of recognition, and his reputation would be better served if you didn't play games with remarks like this.



estebanana -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 28 2013 0:50:30)

Not to be a downer or anything, but I'm not having a lot of fun nor am I feeling full filled by all that "compared to this and that" talk about guitars.

I'm glad Tom posted a video of Carlos playing his guitar, but all the other cross discussion about who is better is a waste of time to luthiers. We don't really care, at least I don't.

I hope this does not sound too harsh, but it would be nice if guys did not post about the guitars they just bought to show it off as in the recent Reyes discussion. It defeats the purpose of a Luthery section, it's not called Show and Tell what I just bought. Do that in Product Review or Classifieds or make a sound sample of your newly bought guitar and show it off over in Audio Sample.

The luthiers post videos of themselves playing something they made or a client playing one of their guitars, this seems reasonable. Random posts about random guitars have no context here, unless someone is posing a question about building or repair. Please keep non luthery stuff elsewhere as it distracts from actually talking about guitar making. Subjective views on who builds better than who just turn into a big circle of opinion and serve no purpose to either luthiers or players trying to gett more clarity on what guitar making is all about.

I think we are beginning to get too far afield from the actual intent of this section.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 28 2013 2:29:37)

quote:

I think we are beginning getting too far afield from the actual intent of this section.


Stephen, I agree but there is always one or two who happen upon these sections and think they should add to the fray, on occasion.

But a gentle reminder, like you give, is sufficient for a better dialog, if people will honestly want to be a part of the ongoing conversation, for added quality to the topic at hand.



RTC -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 28 2013 3:37:20)

Tom:

I visit this forum to get educated on the many flamenco topics covered on this forum. From compass to guitars.

I appreciate your input, Stephen, Richard, Ricardo, Andy .... and many of the other talented musicians, teachers, critics, fellow students and Guitarreros.

I always felt that this forum it's best when this is happening.

I also understand that people are very emotional about specific subjects, but if we really think about it "Flamenco" is all about feeling, heart and passion, at those times the foro is superb.

Thanks for your and everyone else for the positive contributions.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jun. 28 2013 13:19:31)

Obviously, this forum is made up of many different opinions. And this scenario provides a great wealth of information and entertainment,..... sometimes testing, but it has its positive moments for its readers.

I'm glad you find it interesting. How is the Dallas-Fort Worth metro-plex doing.... Any flamenco activity there?



avimuno -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 1 2013 19:39:15)

Hey Tom!!

Thanks for sharing the story amigo... J. L. Postigo was also very impressed with your Reyes copy... it was in no way inferior to the few Reyes Padre I tried in his collection; as I remember most of them were very good but not to the point of commanding the prices he was asking for them, except for one, which was really amazing!
Anyways, I will never ever sell that guitar... despite me saving up to get a Reyes Padre soon! [:)]

I hope that you're keeping well.

Avi



avimuno -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 1 2013 20:03:33)

In line with Stephen's post I had a questions for you luthiers... putting aside the rave about Reyes, which is I think closely linked to Vicente Amigo's amazing guitar tone, how is it that Manuel Reyes is an innovator of guitar making?

This question might sound completely stupid to you guys, but this is something that has somewhat intrigued me as someone who knows nothing about guitar making.

Hence my question... obviously Manuel Reyes has learned his trade from the past masters, he even probably started building guitars in the style of one of these masters... and I would imagine that throughout the years he has refined his trade and most probably started tweaking the design in order to reach his own... but what, or rather how, is it that he has become to be considered to be such a great luthier? What innovations has he developed as a luthier that makes him such an important figure to so many luthiers today? If the Reyes design is a true evolution in the history of flamenco guitar making, how is it so?

I hope that this post makes sense... please bear in mind that I am not a luthier [8D]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 1 2013 20:50:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: avimuno

Anyways, I will never ever sell that guitar... despite me saving up to get a Reyes Padre soon! [:)]

I hope that you're keeping well.

Avi


Thanks for your input Avi, I hope you are doing well with your studies. I have since progressed toward doing some fine tuning for a factory in Spain. I hope that works out.



Morante -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 1 2013 21:45:59)

quote:

In line with Stephen's post I had a questions for you luthiers... putting aside the rave about Reyes, which is I think closely linked to Vicente Amigo's amazing guitar tone, how is it that Manuel Reyes is an innovator of guitar making?


Nothing. The only innovator was Torres. Reyes worked very carefully with much attention to detail. Ya está.



Ricardo -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 5:44:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: avimuno

In line with Stephen's post I had a questions for you luthiers... putting aside the rave about Reyes, which is I think closely linked to Vicente Amigo's amazing guitar tone, how is it that Manuel Reyes is an innovator of guitar making?

This question might sound completely stupid to you guys, but this is something that has somewhat intrigued me as someone who knows nothing about guitar making.

Hence my question... obviously Manuel Reyes has learned his trade from the past masters, he even probably started building guitars in the style of one of these masters... and I would imagine that throughout the years he has refined his trade and most probably started tweaking the design in order to reach his own... but what, or rather how, is it that he has become to be considered to be such a great luthier? What innovations has he developed as a luthier that makes him such an important figure to so many luthiers today? If the Reyes design is a true evolution in the history of flamenco guitar making, how is it so?

I hope that this post makes sense... please bear in mind that I am not a luthier [8D]


Only thing I found interesting was about his preference to cut logs with a hatchet himself. Like any builder he has made great and so so instruments. Over time top players preferred the sound and feel of his guitars so they stand the test of time and because they are relatively rare in production vs "factory" turned out instruments like Ramirez or Conde, their value is super inflated at this time. His son builds guitars "the same way", with less favorable reviews, generally speaking. I personally find these guitars bright and loud. I prefer a more focus mid rangy sound myself. But they are inspiring to play none the less.

Ricardo



estebanana -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 6:41:39)

quote:

What innovations has he developed as a luthier that makes him such an important figure to so many luthiers today? If the Reyes design is a true evolution in the history of flamenco guitar making, how is it so?


Reyes works with a pretty conservative design that is actually not his exclusive design at all. He works with a few ideas that stem from Manuel Ramirez, Santos Hernandez and Barbero.
The most basic design Reyes works with is a seven fan construction with no cut off braces at the bottom of the lower bouts. It is about as basic as you can get. He simply put in years of time understanding and remembering how thick and flexible to leave the top and made some refinements to the geometry to make the action work as he wishes.

Like in a lot of disciplines it's not what is innovative that works, it's basic things that one understands profoundly. Reyes worked for many years and mastered the instrument. Many older players who were around in the 1960's will often comment on Reyes guitars at the time and bring up that Reyes' early guitars could be temperamental and subject to playing well or not playing well according to the weather. Players will always comment on how great the guitar are or could be, but I have heard many stories of players from the 60's and 70's selling off their Reyes to buy a more dependable or less finicky guitar.

His reputation is pretty solid now and his guitars don't have those issues that the earlier ones sometimes had. But Reyes had no secrets, gimmicks or innovations that other builders did not have, he just stuck to his work and mastered the basics over and over.



avimuno -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 10:57:14)

Thanks for the replies guys!



avimuno -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 11:19:36)

quote:

Thanks for your input Avi, I hope you are doing well with your studies. I have since progressed toward doing some fine tuning for a factory in Spain. I hope that works out.


I am doing great... I'm almost done writing my Masters thesis, which is centered on the Gypsies and Flamenco... and I will be defending my PhD thesis proposal in front of the jury this September... fingers crossed! By the looks of it, I will still be a student for the next 3 years at least.

Working with a factory in Spain sounds like exciting news... do tell us more about it when the deal is done!



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 12:20:25)

quote:

His son builds guitars "the same way", with less favorable reviews, generally speaking. I personally find these guitars bright and loud. I prefer a more focus mid rangy sound myself. But they are inspiring to play none the less.


The guitars are definitely loud and are louder with a solid two piece laminate lining for the top and sides instead of individual tentelones around the inside edges. But I think Reyes Sr. has mastered the mid range in some of his creations that I've had the opportunity to investigate.

It's all in the top thickness and strut shaping that changes things for a builder's personal stamp. And I think the downside to some of his guitars is that he was compelled to experiment outside the box, on occasion, no pun intended.

I'm sure he has passed his good points on to his son.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 12:38:42)

quote:


Working with a factory in Spain sounds like exciting news... do tell us more about it when the deal is done!


This may take some time but I have two rosewood guitars coming in about a month that are built by the factory owner. My sales agent says that they are fantastic but need a little fine tuning. I'm thankful for this as fine tuning is where I earn money:-)



Ruphus -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 12:57:46)

Factory ... built by owner ...

I´d put my token on either Ricardo or Amalio ( NOT Amalia!) Just for the shizznizz.

Ruphus



tri7/5 -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 13:34:01)

Maybe it's just me but it's a little disconcerting that the owner, whatever the factory may be, cannot build a guitar himself as he wants it in house and has to outsource for a service such as this. Maybe I'm just wrong as to the way it's done in Spain but it seems like the owner should be a master luthier in his own right in order to be able to oversee an operation such as that.



Ruphus -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 14:12:54)

When you roam better stores and check out concert level guitars, you might find that a not so small number of guitars despite fancy labels of name and price turn out relatively uneven. Be it vertically or horizontally.

Indicating that voicing / fine tuning as reliable procedure might not be standard in every shop.
It could make the difference of more or less consistent production of masters, I suppose.

Ruphus



Tom Blackshear -> RE: encounter with Manuel Reyes hijo (Jul. 2 2013 16:44:15)

I'm not at liberty to discuss why the owner chooses to use my fine tuning service but to say he does excellent work cosmetically and makes a lot of guitars for quite a few popular brand names in Spain.

However, my design is better done by my hand for the fine tuning. I hope this helps. I'm not working on any other of his guitars but my own design. I like his cosmetics as well as my own. They are very high level in appearance and finish but with a hand made persona.



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