RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Full Version)

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Thomas Whiteley -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 14:52:19)

quote:

simple.... Dont buy the bad ones.


I like that! [:D]



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 14:58:59)

quote:

I just want to know what's so bad about this Carlos Montoya person. I haven't heard any of his stuff but y'all seem to give him a fairly negative sort of review...two people already mention they don't like him...



This is what I mean... some members aren't too familiar with the less popular examples of Flamenco. Personally, I don't own any Montoya CDs... but the reason for that is because I started a post about him a few months back and got an overwhelming response that most members didn't like his music (with a few exceptions).

Here is a link to that thread:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=15131&p=3&tmode=1&smode=1


I'm not qualified to comment on the specifics of his technique and duende, but if you're still interested I'd recommend picking up a cheap Montoya CD and deciding for yourself.

The other guitarist I was told to avoid was Manitas de Plata. The same applies to him.


James



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 15:04:53)

quote:

what's so bad about this Carlos Montoya person


Actually, I have some very good recordings of Carlos Montoya – playing accompaniment. Some are LP’s, CD’s and personal tapes I made. If you can play accompaniment for Carmen Amaya (I know many of you do not know who Carmen Amaya was and could care less) then I think you know how to play flamenco guitar!

Carlos was the first flamenco guitarist to become a solist and toured the world. He married an American and his wife convinced him to enter this new career. Carlos had a heavy hand and a huge heart. I consider him a good friend and one who encouraged me on many occasions with my flamenco work. It fact Carlos taught me some fine and important points about specific techniques.

As I have posted many times, we called Carlos the Carpenter, because of his technique. His uncle Ramon did much to elevate flamenco guitar music, technique and the creation of several palos. Ramon taught Carlos nothing – in fact Ramon refused to do so! Carlos grew up in the house of Ramon Montoya. I must say that Carlos was a gentle and pleasant man and a typical introvert. He would also go out of his way to help you.



Skai -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 15:20:33)

Carlos Montoya's playing was very harsh, probably more suited to accompaniment. Thunderous golpes are what I remember him for. [:D] BTW Ryan002, how about an intro of yourself, maybe through email? You happen to be from Singapore too? If you are, it's better if flamenco enthusiasts here stick together or we might just die out. I've got 2 others on my side LOL..

I've gone round the island and managed to dig out some CDs here and there. Anyway it was Paco Pena's Flamenco Master album that I bought a year ago and it wasn't from Gramaphone. If you'd like to have a listen to Carlos Montoya, try That CD Shop across Far East Plaza, under the World section.

As for the neck, they had to heat up the neck for guitars without truss rods. I was trying to figure out whether it was really warped. But I did try it out yesterday again after the repair, and the action seemed much better so I think it was probably worth the repair. Haven't collected it though, I told the repairman that I'd collect it 'later in the day' and I never returned.. I won't have enough money till Thursday! [:D]

I'd be more than happy to hear some samples of any tracks you've got James. I'm eternally grateful to you for everything that you gave me, it's great though I'm still trying to listen to all my new additions. I've bought quite a few CDs and I've got tons of albums from you too, Thanks!

Cheston



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 16:03:57)

quote:

Actually, I have some very good recordings of Carlos Montoya – playing accompaniment. Some are LP’s, CD’s and personal tapes I made. If you can play accompaniment for Carmen Amaya (I know many of you do not know who Carmen Amaya was and could care less) then I think you know how to play flamenco guitar!



Ryan,
if I remember correctly there are also other members who appreciate Montoya's work, so he cannot be completely bad. But as with most artists raised in this thread its probably best to decide for yourself, and keep an open mind whilst considering the pros and cons.


Cheston,
I'm gonna try emailing the mp3 file to your gmail address in a second. But lets hope that luthier doesn't sell your guitar to someone else seeing as you didn't turn up to collect it! [:D]



James



Miguel de Maria -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 16:18:17)

No one said Carlos wasn't a good person, Ryan. It's just commonly thought that his recordings aren't worth much. By the way, that doesn't mean he can't play. I know a guy who can play a lot and is quite an artist but he doesn't have an album. On the other hand, if you like more "flamenco like music" as Tom calls it, take the case of Chuscales. His first flamenco like album was quite good, with lots of nice melodies. His second one was terrible, and sounded like a thrown-together, noodly, improvised mish-mash, with some of the old falsetas thrown together. Amazing that one person could make two albums, so wildly differing in quality.



Ron.M -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 20:32:33)

quote:

His second one was terrible, and sounded like a thrown-together, noodly, improvised mish-mash, with some of the old falsetas thrown together.

Mike,
I think a lot of really good Flamenco players have trodden that path to "noodly nirvana" myself.
Just like punk reassesed glam rock, I sometimes wonder if there will be a sudden dismissal of all this "smooth" stuff in Flamenco, and some young guys, somewhere will come out with some really "earthy" and new interpretations of Jondo stuff that will absolutely floor us all! ... I really do!
Will be interesting to see..IMO
After all, jazzier can only get more jazzier to outdo the jazzinest that was done before, until it gets to the jazzymost of the jazzyfantasticmost!
Then "jazzy" will become "old style playing", dismissed as the stuff your dad and grandad did in the old days, and a complete embarrassment.

LOL! [:D]

cheers

Ron



koella -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 21:31:35)

IMO All the jazz in flamenco is merely a commercial thing. It sells.

If you take Paco Cepero as an example. He never had the urge to being popular in, let's say, the US. He stuck to the flamenco puro. Not to mention the top singers and dancers who didn't get the big money and the popularity cause "foreigners"didn'appreciate/understand what they where doing.

I think the pure flamenco was and is always present in Spain itself.

The other day I heard a well know player who accompanied a singer. He had integrated a pdl falseta in it. It sounded more puro as he played it then when I heard it from pdl.

So I think that there are players who use the paco-like stuff as a dictionary to update there puro playing.
On the other hand there are players who use it and exaggerate it to become known worldwide (and rich !!) not caring about wether it's still flamenco anymore.

Just an amature's opinion of someone who doesn't like jazz[:D]
Still, if florian and others do like the modern stuff I will still go on trying to like it.[&:]



Mark2 -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 7 2005 0:54:49)

I can't think of a single flamenco record I regret getting, including records by CM, and records by non spanish guitarists. I have a record where the singer is drunk and horribly out of tuneon one cut, and another where the guitarist plays in a different key than the singer on a cut. There is something to enjoy in all of them to me. Like for example early stuff where the recording quality itself dates the record. It's interesting to see how people sang flamenco in 1930, and to see if a French guitarist can completely capture an authentic sound, or if not, why. It's all worthy.



Cloth Ears -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 8 2005 18:03:56)

Although Vicente's "Cuidad.." is a brilliant album throughout IMO, it is far from pure flamenco and I can understand's Phrygus' reservations therein. (Ironic that you like "Tres Notas.." since it is Flamenco/Jazz crossover and far from trad. compas.

However, DO give it a listen, since it is an exquisite piece of work that stands by itself as a truly original work of art.

Vicente is a very crossover player, rarely satisfied with sticking to old form. His latest work is compas based, but doesn't have that gitano flamenco feeling found soo clearly in all of Tomatito's work. I woild like to see him work for a dancer...that would stretch him.

Two reccommendations:
Paco Pena's "Azahara" and Tomatito's 'Barrio Negra" - both very Flamenco

n joi

p.s. avoid album's by Westlife since they are talentless jerks [;)]



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 8 2005 18:23:34)

quote:

Vicente is a very crossover player, rarely satisfied with sticking to old form. His latest work is compas based, but doesn't have that gitano flamenco feeling found soo clearly in all of Tomatito's work. I woild like to see him work for a dancer...that would stretch him.



This may be so. But I'm not sure this would apply to Nunez, as I have seen him play traditional stuff with Carmen Cortes dancing. And apparently he also has an album with cante by El Indio Gitano which is more traditional. So just because a guitarist plays "modern flamenco" or flamenco jazz doesn't mean they can't also play traditional stuff.


However...

Here is a exert from an interview with Manolo Sanlucar commenting on tradition versus modernity in Flamenco...





INTERVIEWER:
With the revolution flamenco's undergone over the past few years, how do you see the new generations? Is it harder for them to contribute something new, without getting away from flamenco?

MANOLO:
The more time goes by, the further the new generations drift away from tradition. That's dangerous; we've entered a world dominated by what's commercial, and a lot of them don't have a foundation, the knowledge to differentiate between musical cultures. Hybrids have already come out which have no structural knowledge of their own musical culture. Nowadays there are aberrations happening such as the one at Córdoba's Flamenco Conservatory, where in the offer of mandatory studies one of the courses, I believe, was Jazz Harmony, and that has been included in the educational program because two or three artists happen to have done fusions. The school representing us can't impose that course, because young people will think it belongs to our culture. For them to know it should be a personal question, which they make their own decision on. A young person shouldn't construe that knowing jazz harmony is part of our culture. We don't need it, and at the same time, we need them all. This is a lack of reasoning and a lack of trained teachers, speaking in general terms. Young people get lost and then it's really difficult to recover them when they're forty years old. It's true that there is a group of young guitarists with technique, but there's still a lot of insufficiency in training.



James



XXX -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 8 2005 18:40:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloth Ears
p.s. avoid album's by Westlife since they are talentless jerks [;)]


But their concerts are so great [8D]

But serious now, i listened to the CD Ciudad couple times now:

I like "Tres notas..." because of the original melody and the beginning.
I also like Track 2, the cante. 3rd track is annoying (the palmas!). 4 is very, very nice, its "airy", smooth, very "lifted up", "cool" (sorry for crappy english).
5 is to "kitchy" (?) for me. Theres an instrument that doesnt fit at all... the guitar? [:D] no joke. Its sounds like a harmonica.
6 is a bit like 3 with a too much annoying/instrusive rythm for me. Dont know how to explain better, but i get headache from such a monotone rythm pattern...
7 is ok, nice playing, but i didnt get the "meaning". Same goes for 8.

Ps: Im enjoying Sabicas very much right now. He seemed to have an influence on Paco, but thats only a vague guess since i have only heard the "flamenco puro" album. I guess im more addicted to flamencoguitar than to flamenco music [&:] (though i like camaron! )



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 8 2005 18:57:43)

quote:

I like "Tres notas..." because of the original melody and the beginning.
I also like Track 2, the cante. 3rd track is annoying (the palmas!). 4 is very, very nice, its "airy", smooth, very "lifted up", "cool" (sorry for crappy english).
5 is to "kitchy" (?) for me. Theres an instrument that doesnt fit at all... the guitar? no joke. Its sounds like a harmonica.
6 is a bit like 3 with a too much annoying/instrusive rythm for me. Dont know how to explain better, but i get headache from such a monotone rythm pattern...
7 is ok, nice playing, but i didnt get the "meaning". Same goes for 8.

Ps: Im enjoying Sabicas very much right now. He seemed to have an influence on Paco, but thats only a vague guess since i have only heard the "flamenco puro" album. I guess im more addicted to flamencoguitar than to flamenco music (though i like camaron! )




My thoughts exactly (except that I wasn't so keen on "Cordoba"). But I think we have similar musical tastes... I might check out Sabicas.

I'd also agree on being addicted to Flamenco guitar rather than flamenco music as a whole. But I am trying to make an effort to appreciate it all.



James



Florian -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 1:34:30)

Paco Pena X Mass Carols
Manitas de Plata Under the Stars
Juan Martin Unplugged



Skai -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 7:34:07)

On a side note, has anyone watched 'The Four Martins' DVD, one of them being Juan Martin? It's obviously not flamenco but would you consider it good guitar music?



Kate -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 11:53:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
I also read one of your old posts about Emilio Maya's album and now that its arrived I quite like it.


Hey James

There's very little cante on Emilio's album but can you tell what they are saying or shouting at the beginning of the last track, ' Cazuelo pa' 1500' ? ( rough translation " Stew for 1,500" Sometimes I hear this album being played as I walk down our street, we have a neighbour who loves it, and it always makes me laugh when I hear that bit.

Kate



Doitsujin -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 12:57:46)

Some of the cante on Emilios Cd is very very honkey.... [:@] I dont know why he let this singer sang on his album??? Its one of the first tracks. Tanguillo?? Maybe, I will look for it again.
But Emilios CD is no CD to avoid. Its a cool piece. The alegrias.. mmmmm[:)]



Kate -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 13:55:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

Some of the cante on Emilios Cd is very very honkey.... [:@] I dont know why he let this singer sang on his album??? Its one of the first tracks. Tanguillo?? Maybe, I will look for it again.
But Emilios CD is no CD to avoid. Its a cool piece. The alegrias.. mmmmm[:)]



Not sure what you mean by honkey. The cante is kept to the minimum really as it is a guitar album but the singers are some of Granada's finest, Victor El Charico, Marina Heredia, El Tirado, El Parrón, Antonio Campos and Raul Mikelito who sings the first track, the rumba, is a member of the Habichuela family. The last track is the closest you can get to being at a juerga without actually being there. We kept the neighbours awake that night [;)]

Kate



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 14:02:13)

quote:

Some of the cante on Emilios Cd is very very honkey



Huh? "honkey"?! what does that mean? Anyway, if I remember rightly there's only cante on one song on the album, which is "Cazuela..." I was a bit critical of that song actually... it was perhaps the only song I didn't like. Not sure if it was "bad cante" or me just not appreciating cante again. Although the bit at the end where they all sing together was amusing... it reminded me of the drunk guys that sing after coming out of the local pub late at night (except with a Spanish feel)! [:D]


Katrina,
thanks for all the translation work. Its fascinating to hear what these songs are about, and a good insight into the culture behind them. We are very lucky to have such fluent Spanish speakers on this forum.



James



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 14:06:11)

Ah yes, the cante in the rumba... it sounds quite modern. Actually I quite like the singing (at least compared to some cante!) [8D]


James



Kate -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 17:09:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
. it reminded me of the drunk guys that sing after coming out of the local pub late at night (except with a Spanish feel)! [:D]


I think you hit the nail on the head there James [;)] The last session was more like a party than a recording session with whisky, jamon and olives on the table and everyone fighting to better the singer before them.

At the beginning you can hear them shouting " Harold si si Harold no no " which comes out more like " aro si si aro' no no"

Kate



Kate -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 9 2005 17:11:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
Katrina,
thanks for all the translation work. Its fascinating to hear what these songs are about, and a good insight into the culture behind them. We are very lucky to have such fluent Spanish speakers on this forum.
James


Its my pleasure. I worked as hard learning Spanish as you guys do playing your guitars and at least it means I can contribute something here. And I just love cante and Spanish poetry.

Kate



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 23 2005 15:48:04)

Ron,
if you are still following this thread, I thought I'd let you know that I enjoyed the Camaron and Tomatito "Paris" album. My particular favorite parts are the start of the first song ("Tus Ojillos Negros") with its "di di di trum trum trow, di di di trum trum trum trow" lyric (it sounds very familiar... I'm pretty sure I've heard it on one of the cante CDs El Ted recommended!). Also, forgive me for admitting that "Como El Agua" was possibly my favorite song (its less of a song and more of a catchy repeated chorus). One thing though, I did get the impression Camaron cut short his singing a phrase or so too early before the end of a couple of songs (almost as though he'd run out of breath to finish the sentence!).
Generally, it wasn't a bad experience, and I might experiment with a bit more cante slowly. However, not everyone is so easily won over... my mother can't stand the cante- says it sound like someone is in pain!!! [:D]



James



Ron.M -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 23 2005 16:22:42)

Glad you liked it James.
I think a lot of guitarists start off buying cante albums really so they can hear their favourite guitarist play falsetas, but could really skip the singing...
Then after a while they think the singing's not too bad.....then they start to actually like it....then they start to miss it when listening to solo stuff! [:D]

When I've played a cante CD to anyone who is not familiar with Flamenco, they usually look either horrified or bemused that anybody actually likes this stuff.

cheers

Ron



Phil -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 23 2005 18:41:45)

quote:

If you take Paco Cepero as an example. He never had the urge to being popular in, let's say, the US. He stuck to the flamenco puro.


Actually, Paco Cepero is a very wealthy man and he didn´t make his money playing Flamenco puro. He made it as a record producer and song writer for Spanish singers of what I call ´pop aflamencada´like Chiquitete, Isabel Pantoja, etc. Can´t get more comercial than that. And there´s nothing wrong with this, I just pointing it out.

Phil



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 23 2005 18:46:32)

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andante -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 30 2005 5:09:07)

JBASHORUN,

The shortness of breath you describe may be the result of Camaron´s habit of standing up at the end of each song and taking a step away from his chair (leaving the microphone behind).
This is a common gesture among cantaores, for example José Mercé tends to walk right towards the back of the stage. On a practical level, it lets the guitarist know that by about now he should be letting fly with a thunderous closing rasgueo, but in a large auditorium it does mean that the end of the last phrase gets lost.
Also, the lyric is "tirititran tran tran" and you´re right, it is a standard opening for alegrias.



Jon Boyes -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 30 2005 8:35:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
my mother can't stand the cante- says it sound like someone is in pain!!! [:D]


If you think about it, she's right.



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 30 2005 13:45:20)

Thanks Andante, that was very interesting information. I suspect had I ever had the priveledge of seeing Camaron sing live, I might have realised that he sometimes moved about toward the end of a song. And thanks for telling me the real lyrics to the Alegrias... now I can sing along! [:D]
But someone told me that Camaron was a heroin addict... is this true? [8|] Is that how he died?



James



Kate -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 30 2005 15:32:24)

Yes sadly Camerón was a heroin addict, but he was also ill with cancer I believe and that is what killed him. I've not seen the film yet and wonder how they deal with this aspect of his life and death. Rumours abound about aids and overdoses but the official family version I believe is cancer.

Kate



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