ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - ALBUMS TO AVOID...: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=23425



Message

JBASHORUN -> ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 4 2005 19:55:48)

Okay, so I've read what the other members considered to be "the best" Flamenco albums ever. But I was recently reading a post listing all the Flamenco guitarists who have released a CD. Then I was wondering about which ones might be good and which ones might be bad.
I thought it might be interesting if people could name a few Flamenco CDs (solo guitar or even cante) that they thought were worth avoiding. Maybe the compas was very poor, or the cante unlistenable. But generally just albums or artists that are best left alone.
Again, its purely subjective. But to give you an example, my Flamenco teacher told me that although Juan Martin's teaching material is reasonably good, he is not a good Flamenco guitarist and to avoid buying his albums.
If anyone decides to criticise an album or artist, it would be helpful to others to state WHY they dislike them.


So... any albums out there that a Flamenco fan should be ashamed to own?



thanks,

James

PS: I wouldn't be surprised if Manitas De Plata's name comes up! [:D]



XXX -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 4 2005 20:52:34)

This thread might be a good idea!

So i hope everyine has in mind that its totally subjective?

I would recommend to NOT buy "Ciudad del las ideas" by Vicente Amigo.
It was one of my first flamenco albums ever and untill now my heaviest disappointment!
"Tre notas..." is ok, but the rest has no strong feeling imo. It sounds like relaxation music. Ok, flamenco can also be relaxed, ive no problem with that, BUT the characteristical attribute of flamenco is its pain, angryness, or the opposite extreme happyness like Alegrias.

But if you are used to the Paco stuff as me, it is maybe understandable that you dont like the style of V. Amigo and in particular this album. But it was not only his style as i mentioned above.


LOL So i hope i could help you a little and so you will NOT buy this album [8D]

(That sounds like reverse or negative Psychology [:D])



koella -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 4 2005 21:04:45)

I don't like carlos montoya



Ron.M -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 4 2005 21:24:37)

J,
I can't say that anything is particularly "bad"..
It might just not interest me from my own taste or point of view..
I was in Madrid when JM was playing for amateur dancers in the dance school up the Amor de Dios street, about 200yds from my pension.
There were a lot of pretty good guitarists around there at that time, (most of them Japanese if the truth be told.)
And Juan was just one of them.

I think to make a living, Juan had to get onto the coat-tails of Paco Peña in Britain.
Paco was a real "live wire" and worked hard giving concerts and appearing on TV variety shows etc as a "spot" act.
And he was really talented...
Most of the concerts I attended...he was in his late twenties or so.
He was really fantastic!

Juan Martin never had the same sound...never the same excitement in his stuff.
Much more "stodgy" and " Look...I'm playing exactly in compás!"...but it was a bit boring IMO...
(Maybe the English upbringing had something to do with it?)

I don't begrudge the man making a living, but his stuff just doesn't excite me.
Especially those "Zambra" sort of open tuning things. ..
(Can't stand them , myself....I sort of feel I'm being "spoken down to" or something..)

I'm only going back to my own recollections, and as Tom has said, he did a very enjoyable concert in the W.Coast USA recently..

I suppose it takes me back to Britain in the 1960's, when things opened out a bit and suddenly everything weird was great...really kosher stuff....
Ravi Shankar lecturing from the stage that he would not play anymore if folk in the audience continued to smoke. (wakky bakky) LOL!

It was a turmoil of a time in the mid to late 60's and everybody was into new experiences be it Indian Ragas or Spanish Flamenco.
Even the middle aged "culture vultures" were out in there droves at these new "socio-cultural events.
So that's where Snr. Peña made his name...and he is the real thing IMO!
Paco Peña, when he wants to be, is a totally fantastic Flamenco guitarist.

Juan?
He's done helluva lot to promote Flamenco guitar and I would never doubt he's a really sincere person and a dedicated Flamenco player.
His teaching methods have inspired and helped many followers of this complicated and fantastic art throughout the world.
So that's something more than many of you reading this have done...

so....Ole his Eggs! [:D]

cheers

Ron



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 4 2005 22:30:36)

Ron,
I hear what you are saying and respect your opinion as someone who knows A LOT more about Flamenco than I do. The reason I thought it might be useful to start a post like this is that it is often hard for a newcomer to tell what is good quality and what isn't. Just a couple of months ago I made a post about a guitarist I heard about called Manitas De Plata and I had members that usually don't even make regular posts telling me how bad he was.
Every now and again, I log onto the forum and see new posts from new members that have "just discovered Flamenco". Usually they only own one or 2 Flamenco albums- most often its Paco De Lucia's "Ontologia" album (I know thats where I first started) and to them that is the beginning and end of Flamenco (as they know it).
To be honest, I have been listening to Flamenco for quite some time now, and even still I have trouble telling what is good quality and what is not. I only own one Juan Martin album, but as for commenting on the finer points of his technique and duende... I would not be a good judge. Obviously it is partially subjective, but there seems to be a general concensus (amongst the more knowledgeable Flamenco afficionados I've spoken to) that some guitarists like carlos Montoya and Manitas are not prime examples. So I'm guessing its not 100% subjective.
The idea with the "best" and "worst" posts was to try and guide the newcomers like myself toward what those more knowledgeable might consider to be the prime examples of Flamenco.
Never the less, I try and keep an open mind, so I may still go to the Juan Martin concert in London in December and see whether I like his playing. I'm sure there would be some members who think Juan's work is great, and has inspired them to learn Flamenco (as you said).


Phrygus,
I'm afraid I'll have to exercise my freedom of thought on that one. I did buy the Ciudad De Las Ideas DVD, and whilst I didn't enjoy all the songs, I thought "Tres Notas...", "Ciudad" and "Compare Manuel" were pretty good. 3 good songs out of 9 wasn't that bad, as some albums have none! [:D]



Thanks,


James



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2005 22:34:47)

[Deleted by Admins]



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 4 2005 22:38:09)

quote:

My biggest dissapointments are surprisingly all recent purchases:

Tomatito - Aguadulce (and that says alot because I am a HUGE fan of his)
Gerardo Nunez - Andando el tiempo
Vicente Amigo - un momento en el sonido


May I ask what you didn't like about the Nunez album?


Thanks,


James



XXX -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 4 2005 22:47:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
Phrygus,
I'm afraid I'll have to exercise my freedom of thought on that one. I did buy the Ciudad De Las Ideas DVD, and whilst I didn't enjoy all the songs, I thought "Tres Notas...", "Ciudad" and "Compare Manuel" were pretty good. 3 good songs out of 9 wasn't that bad, as some albums have none! [:D]


No, that was freedom of speech :)

But its ok, we seem to have more or less a comparable view on this album.
"Compare Manuel" is also a average-good track; i had forgotten to mention it.

Actually i bought it to gain a more diverse experience/view on Flamenco and Flamencoguitar, beacuse at that time the only Flamenco albums i had were all Pacos (but all his stuff from 60s-94 or so).
The result was that i learned to appreciate and like Pacos music even more, how funny is that?

So when someone is interested in flamenco(-guitar) and asks me what flamenco is, or which artist i would recommend him, i would say Paco is the best choice, particularly regarding the Art of guitar.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2005 2:05:47)

[Deleted by Admins]



Doitsujin -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 5 2005 8:42:45)

What you dont like Vicente, Tomatito and Gerardos newest CD? And ciudad de las ideas???[&:] So different are our tastes. I like all 4 albums very very much. Ciudad de las ideas is my favouite coz of the perfect accentuations Vicente does. Aguadulce is a bit short but he plays very great. Gerardo is just perfect..so many new tunings..boh..thats courios.
Ok the 4 worst albums I´ve bought IMO are:

Paco Pena / misa flamenca.... [:@]
Jeronimo / he plays faboulos but the ideas on his cd are all crap.
Carlos Montoya
Arcangel... he has a childrens voice. This is too much for me.



Skai -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 5 2005 14:36:23)

While I absolutely love Paco Pena, I don't exactly enjoy this album by Juan Martin entitled Camino Latino. I deeply regret saying this as it was a special gift from someone and it was a Juan Martin recital that sparked my flamenco interest.

The album is basically his pathetic attempts at bossa nova and other latin stuff which highly pisses me off. I got anothe rone of his albums and this one consists of flamenco tracks, and I rather have a CD with true flamenco, not jazzy modern stuff or Spanish sounding tracks. Then again, it has the essenco of what Ron mentioned. A lack of excitment and a sound that says 'Look! I can play just like a flamenco metronome!' or 'I'm a robot programmed to play flamenco techniques in compas'.

He's got all his techniques down, better than what many can do. He's in compas. Then what's the problem? It lacks any drive and it's void of feelings.

On the other hand, Juan Martin's recital was outstanding. Everything just traditional flamenco as I like it. I didn't understand flamenco then and everything sounded the same, but I knew that that was going to be one of my main musical directions, all because of Juan Martin. I don't doubt his sincerity as a person and as a teacher, and I'm sure he'll probably be one of the great teachers around. But his albums just don't reflect all this.

As for PdL, I recognise his amazing creativity, musicality and technical skills. But I honestly don't enjoy his music, I can't even sit through his so-called 'greatest hits' CD called Anthologia. What I can really enjoy and listen almost without skipping is a Pena CD.

On the opinion on Misa Flamenca, I don't exactly consider it a good choice for beginners, neither is it actually bad. It's actually quite interesting to have a 'choir' accompanied by Pena's guitar in the background. Not traditional cante, neither solo guitar, it's just different.

Cheers,
Cheston



Miguel de Maria -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2005 14:58:00)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 5 2005 21:11:53



XXX -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 5 2005 15:22:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skai
As for PdL, I recognise his amazing creativity, musicality and technical skills. But I honestly don't enjoy his music, I can't even sit through his so-called 'greatest hits' CD called Anthologia.


Try Fabulosa Guitarra de PdL and Siroco.
Maybe it only takes a bit time to get used to it, as it is often the case that you dont like an album at first hearing but after months or years you hear it and like it.


Miguel, ive got nothing against a list of opinions.
Can you make a suggestion on how to improve this thread or was that also only an opinion.
Actually i AM curious to see who likes which album or not and why...



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 5 2005 17:38:15)

quote:

I think there are only a couple eternal truths: 1, Carlos Montoya records suck.


It would seem that even this is subjective... if I remember rightly some members (like Flyeogh) actually quite like Montoya. Although my own Flamenco teacher did warn me against buying his work.

Consider these "best of" and "worst of" posts a bit like an amature wine enthusiast asking a connoisseur which wines to try and avoid. I'm guessing any connoisseur could probably name a few from each catagory and give good reason. But if any amature enthusiasts are bold enough to have an opinion, then they are also free to express it, as Cheston has done.


Cheston,
I'm pleased that you are confident enough in your opinions to know that you don't like PDL's stuff. I think that there are many who would blindly call him God. Although personally, I think many of his songs are quite entertaining.

Perhaps some of this comes down to the whole "New Flamenco" versus "Old Flamenco" arguement. And obviously for those who like it pure, some of PDL, Amigo and Nunez' work will simply be too modern.


On the bright side, Manitas De Plata's name HASN'T been mentioned... so i think I'll go out and buy all of his records!!! [:D]



Miguel de Maria -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2005 19:47:52)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 5 2005 21:12:14



koella -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 5 2005 20:25:39)

Arrogance can put a lid on some discussions jbashorun/miguel.(you all must be very experienced in playing AND this forum [8|])
I bought sirocco when it just came out, must have been somewhere around 1990.
Played it a lot but imo it can't beat pdl's old stuff.
Recently bought cositas buenas. Same story. Too much Georghe Benson and Pat Metheny.( I don't mention pdl's singing! )
Don't get me wrong ! I like elevator music from time to time but not in flamenco.

Afterwards I listen to Quique Paredes or camaron with tomatito or pdl, or even pena And I like that much better.

Does that make me an amature and you a conaisseur ?

You go buy that box with the complete works of Manitas. Maybe there's even a Carlos Montoya bonus inside[;)]



JBASHORUN -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2005 20:52:38)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 11 2011 19:47:47



Miguel de Maria -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2005 20:57:00)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 5 2005 21:11:33



Ron.M -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 5 2005 21:02:23)

James,
To me you certainly don't come across as arrogant, but as a keen aficionado.
Listen to the Camaron/Tomatito/Paris album and let us know what you think!
If any album has singularly captured the spirit of Flamenco...then that has to be one of the all-time greats!

cheers

Ron



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 5 2005 21:11:23)

quote:

Listen to the Camaron/Tomatito/Paris album and let us know what you think!


Will do Ron, infact I'm looking forward to that album. I also read one of your old posts about Emilio Maya's album and now that its arrived I quite like it.


Thanks,


James



Skai -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 4:43:20)

I think that all these comments are really subjective, like mine on PdL. I've had the CD for almost a year already and certain tracks are horribly boring to me, it's like a bunch of incoherent notes and chords played by someone with amazing technique. There are of course superb tracks like Almoraima and Solo Queiro Caminar which top my list but tracks like Cancion de Amor, I feel are nonsensical, draggy and tuneless.

Again all this may not apply to others as I'm a melody oriented person, maybe due to my other main interest, classical. Rhythm is another thing I look out for and maybe that's why I enjoy PdL's bulerias, tangos, rumbas etc. ie. all those with relatively consistent rhythm. On that note, I must also add that I can't exactly stand his soleas. What I do worship is his rendition of Aranjuez. I can't find anything better, neither do I think it's possible to be any better. [;)]



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 9:41:12)

quote:

There are of course superb tracks like Almoraima and Solo Queiro Caminar which top my list but tracks like Cancion de Amor, I feel are nonsensical, draggy and tuneless.


I have to admit, Cancion De Amor is not a particular favorite of mine. But whilst we are expressing subjective opinions, what do you think of Paco's stuff with Camaron and Camaron's stuff with Tomatito? (that is, if you have heard any of it).


Thanks,


James



larone -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 9:49:13)

TOUGH CROWD!!!!!

Larone



PacoPaella -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 11:27:15)

I guess it all depends on what you expect from an album. I prefer one brillant song per album over 4 average ones personally. I found 2 very good ones on Ciudad de las ideas (title track and La Tarde Es Caramelo) which made this album one of my favorites. On "Un momento en el sonido" , "Silia Y el Tiempo" is absolutely fantastic and i dont get used to listenig to it. The rest of those albums i dont mind.
P.S.: oh yeah the original question: I hate Nunez. Hes just a showoff with brilliant technique and no inspiration and he would be better off playing classics imho. Remember: freedom of speech [;)]



duende -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 11:51:32)

simple.... Dont buy the bad ones.
[:D][:D]



XXX -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 12:04:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
I have to admit, Cancion De Amor is not a particular favorite of mine.


Dito. I also found the tracks with a violin orchestra totally off the road. In this case guitar and violin is the badest combination ive ever heard. They dont fit pure acoustically and also musically the long-notes of the violins dont match first to the rythmic accentuation and also to a sort of aggresiveness of the guitar.

Dont get me wrong! There are some violin conciertos i like very much, Mendelssohn for example and many others which i dont know their names.

I was on a jazzy flamenco concert where also has been a violin. That really matched! But only if the violin makes some solo while the guitar is accompaining. The other way is hard to make it sound good imo.



Doitsujin -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 12:20:42)

All a question of different tastes...

I like liftmusic.



Skai -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 12:27:40)

I'm in Singapore remember? Barely any non-mainstream CDs. So if anyone's looking for stuff like shred guitar, heavier stuff or obsure music, they'd have to search the whole damn island and maybe they'll find 1 or 2 shops which stock a few copies of the CD. [:D]

I bought a Pena CD once and the shop hasn't put it back there after more than a year. Thank goodness I bought it! That's the crappy part of Singapore. Flamenco and Singapore just don't mix. Not surprising, I've not many flamenco CDs and haven't heard any Paco/Camaron stuff. Now most of the flamenco I have come from you, James!

Besides I'm now out of cash, I really mean $0 till my pay comes in this Thursday and it isn't exactly enough to be called 'salary'. It's more like an allowance for your services. 1/3 goes to my classical lessons and I just spend the rest. [;)] Plus I sent my classical guitar for a repair. I wanted to install a Tusk saddle and nut only to find out from the repairman that the neck's warped! Another 1/3 of my pay gone.. [:(] All thanks to humidity here which can hit up to 80% and drop to almost 50% when I turn on the air-conditioning.

Cheston

PS. Come to think about it, most of my money went to ordering guitar books and my Red Hot Chili Peppers collection. I'm a broke but happy person cos I've got all their albums! [:)]



JBASHORUN -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 12:45:45)

quote:

I wanted to install a Tusk saddle and nut only to find out from the repairman that the neck's warped!


Wow, that sounds bad! On an electric guitar you can just adjust the "truss rod" inside the neck to try and straighten it out, but I'm not sure what the procedure is with acoustics as they don't usually have truss rods. Be careful though- and make sure the neck really is warped, as some unscrupulous luthiers sometimes try and "make up" problems to get more money.

I'm slowly getting into that Paco Y Camaron CD, and I'll try and email you an audio track when I get time to upload it. Its a Tangos called "Al Padre Santo De Roma". I find this is the most accessible track on the album, and quite entertaining if you don't mind cante.


Good luck with repairing the guitar!



James



Ryan002 -> RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (Nov. 6 2005 14:46:12)

Skai!!! It wasn't the CD at Gramaphone Records was it?! I had my eye on that! You beat me by about a week. [8D]

Anyway, I just want to know what's so bad about this Carlos Montoya person. I haven't heard any of his stuff but y'all seem to give him a fairly negative sort of review...two people already mention they don't like him...



Page: [1] 2 3    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET