RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (Full Version)

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gj Michelob -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 14:27:53)

quote:

sing the rhythm...THE RHYTHM.... phrasing is how you memorize lots of material in meaningful long lasting easy to get back in the moment way, not slow motion repetition.


Bravo Ricardo, that is really an intelligent and most productive advice.

One should also add that the more one exercises mnemonics the more quickly one memorizes and more easily retains material. Hence the importance of such exercise.

People may have different ways to approach this process, some from general to detail, and some vice versa.

What Ricardo suggests applies even to [at least for me] memorizing lectures -say a one hour long speech. I visualize the concept and cuddle it with flow and intonation, until all details fall in place naturally. Time consuming as it may seem, when i practice, if I make a mistake in a song or speech, will not stop and repeat the phrase, but the entire material I need to memorize.

Yet, I know some speakers who [as Stephen suggests] learn by re-re-repeating the same line slowly, until it sinks in.
The danger of the second approach, however, is that if you forget a word, during performance, you may be lost, as if making the wrong turn; it is best to visualize a full picture of the map, not just a detailed, partial view.

Also, if one's memory is really weak, a way to jumpstart it is to write down the music, as you would shorthand notes of a lecture. That type of effort would engrave the material even more deeply. But -again- unlike computeres, our memory increases exponentially in quality and quantity the more you store in it.



guitarbuddha -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 14:30:40)

Nice explanation Ricardo, I was pretty sure thats what you meant.

Find example here.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=232908&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#232908


D.



Arash -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 14:54:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Sing it. Sing the rhythm of the falseta or phrase or strumming pattern or entire piece if you want. Beable


sing the rhythm...THE RHYTHM.... phrasing is how you memorize lots of material in meaningful long lasting easy to get back in the moment way, not slow motion repetition. Word by word does not even have meaning if you do it too slow talking about reciting or memorizing passages from books. You need the phrases to get the meaning and even the rhythm and flow and feeling of the thing. Epic poetry type stories were much easier to recite and memorize because they were songs and had a flow and rhythm.

About singing pitches, well complex falsetas jumping around are tough, but you can attempt to get some of the pitches accurate, the main point is the phrase or the melodic contour. Like imitate some speedy picado run of paco with the voice. You do some fast sound with the tongue (didle didle didle didle or trrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr etc) and the pitch just goes from medium, up high and down to lowest notes.... just the contour of the phrase is needed plus the accurate rhythm. If you get better over time you can eventually hit exact notes. But the important thing for memory is RHYTHM. Your fingers will find the notes because phrasing forces them to "remember".

I will go further and say that about myself singing like a song it's not fair what I suggest to players, you have the concept backwards. I can sing more in tune and do harmonies easier than some other singers (who search off track for a harmony part) because I visualize the notes on the guitar as I sing even a pop tune. Being able to play and phrase on guitar helps me hit pitches more accurate with my voice...but rhythms are a different thing than pitches. Try to sing some old cante like fandango de gloria or malagueña de mellizo and you find out that to get the right notes and rhythms it's even harder than most modern guitar falsetas to sing.


Ok thanks man. When i reread your first comment, seams like i didn't pay enough attention to some additional words which you used which didn't necessarily meant that i have to sing each falseta note for note correctly, but more the rythm and phrasing and the overall shape of the thing. With the additional explanation it makes more sence to me now, i have to try it and see if it works for me. My fear was/is that all this additional approaches will make it more complicated for me, but seams like this is a baseless fear (assuming that all brains function the same way ;). I will try it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The way you remember falsetas is to make more dings in your guitars top and not care. Seriously beat it up and mark the top from playing it. Even more seriously, the slower you play in deep practice, the more you retain. Everything else is just BS. SLOW careful practice for 20 minutes will help you keep more music than three hours at playing speed.

It's like reading a book, go over a passage slow many times and you can recite it aloud. Same in music.

The technique to memorize is to play a phrase and then play it again without looking at the music. The slower you play the phrase while not reading the music the better. That is the method soloists use to memorize lengthy concertos. I learned this a long time ago from my cello teachers. It works.


Thats more or less what i have always tried.
Then again sometimes i learn things faster and better when i practice them right away with the original speed (shorter parts, more repetition, but normal speed). For instance sometimes when you slow down certain parts, they totally lose the groove, feeling, rythm etc. and you are somehow lost and left with notes only and it all becomes "robotic" and for me sometimes this makes it more complicated and takes longer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy
I think its probably age-related, but I have no problem remembering all the twelve-digit numbers on several of my credit cards?


Thats because your life and existence depends on remembering and using those digits, but not on falsetas [:D]

@guitarbuddha, i am checking out the video you posted, thanks, will reply as soon as i checked it out in detail.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 16:37:25)

GJ,
a note on "Stephen's Method".

It's axiomatic in the memory field that you must NOTICE something before you can remember it. This applies to lecture listening, learning names, where you put the keys, and music. Playing something very slowly is a way of forcing yourself to notice the many small details that make up even the simplest musical phrase. It is those details, and the myriad connections between those details, that create the strongest and most secure form of musical memory.

Contrast the fluent sheet music reader who can play for hours and memorize nothing with the same person who plays at a snail's pace, but this time taking note of each interval, each scale degree, each dynamic marking, which finger he is using at all times, and even the particular sensation that each note gives to him. The slower player should also take the time to imagine the LH pattern and which finger is doing what before he plays.

The first player may well have successfully executed the phrase, but it has left as little impression on his mind as superficial small talk, as any other chore done on automatic. The second player has stored a wealth of information, any of which can be used to help him get on track and recall the phrase.

Ricardo's advice about playing in groove and at medium tempo attacks thing from a completely different, higher-order angle. It's just as important, of course! I think the slow way is somewhat like writing the music in your brain so you can "look at it" at wil. By doing both, one will be giving oneself the best chance.



gj Michelob -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 17:11:35)

quote:

By doing both, one will be giving oneself the best chance.



Fair enough... "In Media Virtus"
[incidentally, nicely written post, Miguel]



burnsbyrne -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 18:09:34)

I agree with Miguel completely. I played classical guitar for many years but I never learned to read music well. By the time I had learned Requerdos or Asturias, for example, I had also memorized them. I had to crawl, note by note, through the score and repeat so many times that by the time I could play a piece it was in my head and fingers. I guess that's one advantage of being a slow reader!



Paul Magnussen -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 19:05:27)

Yes indeed.

When you can read fast, the music goes straight from your eyes to your fingers, without passing through your brain.



Leñador -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 19:10:13)

quote:

When you can read fast, the music goes straight from your eyes to your fingers, without passing through your brain.


I don't read music great, is there some special guitar specific symbols to say whether your barring an A chord with the root on the E string or if it's an open A chord and things like this?



aeolus -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 19:26:55)

The problem with the guitar for me is deciding on the fingering as reading the notes is no problem it's playing them especially if their disposition is awkward that is to say requiring stretches or flexibility. As for Recuerdos, I noticed Bream in one video at measure 5 uses a bar at V!!! and holds the bar playing the last 2 beats bass line at Pos.X. while my score is Spanish and lists only Terraga so I assume it's his fingering which maintains an open G in the bass giving a distinctive sound. I recently watched Johannes Moller's video and he follows this pattern.

Edit: a barre chord is usually marked with a C and the fret in either Roman or Arabic numeral usually with a line that shows the extent. But it's not written in stone..



tele -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 19:47:52)

For me its somewhat easier to remember falsetas when they are part of a song, so learning complete solo pieces/songs instead of individual falsetas. Somehow automatically every part is remembered. In this manner its slightly faster to learn to remember many falsetas, when you play a song over and over again.



Leñador -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 19:51:57)

quote:

Edit: a barre chord is usually marked with a C and the fret in either Roman or Arabic numeral usually with a line that shows the extent. But it's not written in stone..


Thanks! I'd imagine there is still a little room for confusion for weird inverted chords and what not.

quote:

For me its somewhat easier to remember falsetas when they are part of a song, so learning complete solo pieces/songs instead of individual falsetas. Somehow automatically every part is remembered. In this manner its slightly faster to learn to remember many falsetas, when you play a song over and over again.


This would work fine if you are Grisha, not if you are Ricardo if you know what I mean. Not at all putting one way above the other btw!



aeolus -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 20:19:08)

I see the barre notation as just a convenience for the player. It has no musical significance. In fact a while ago some teachers at university level were agitating against fingering calling it tablature which it can be if one wants to use it. Segovia got so wound up when players used their own fingering because he saw it as an integral part of the composition and for the guitar that argument can be made.



Ricardo -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 16 2013 18:17:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

I see the barre notation as just a convenience for the player. It has no musical significance. In fact a while ago some teachers at university level were agitating against fingering calling it tablature which it can be if one wants to use it. Segovia got so wound up when players used their own fingering because he saw it as an integral part of the composition and for the guitar that argument can be made.


Because he is andaluz and the guitar is used to create "aire" or atmosphere by certain keys and positions. It is why the cejilla needs to be used in flamenco vs other music styles that use the guitar.

Ricardo



estebanana -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 17 2013 1:20:27)

Singing the melody is a good idea. Still, learning certain passages of a piece slow is super important. Going over the fingerings slow helps you get it off the page sooner and helps you practice without making mistakes. Why practice mistakes fast over and over when you can play it correctly three times slow and nail it?

For me singing comes in more as a way of understanding how you want the phrase to sound. If you can sing it you can play it. If it has the added benefit of imprinting the music further then great.

The problem came up of how to string phrases together when you have trouble with continuity. One strategy is to learn the difficult section by isolating it and going slow. When you think you have it slow, go back two or three bars before it and play into the isolated phrase and study the connection between what you isolated and what comes before it. Then play the phrase and add a few bars on the end of it. Do that a few times to reintegrate the isolated section back into the whole. That is where playing slowly ans singing at the same time will work.

I think the same thing works with compas in flamenco playing. If you learn a falseta set up a section of compas before it and play into the difficult falseta from a section of compas. Play close attention to how the basic compas flows into the falseta and back out. Even if that falseta is part of larger complex section of falsetas or a really long falseta isolating one compas at a time can really make it evident how it works. That said, yeah singing, metronome and playing slow all help.

So I have noticed playing slow helps you learn the fingering faster, once you have that established and part of your nervous system, then remembering it is much easier. And liek it was said on guitar the area on the fingerboard a passage is played on can also help you remember the section because the actually geography of the fret board will spur remembering.



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