RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=232591



Message

Arash -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 16:03:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash



The only "falsetas" i can sing are the simple ones like entre dos aguas or something and even there it totally sucks and sounds wrong and i think for me it would cause more damage than benefit . do you really sing the more "difficult" and complex falsetas?!?!





It doesn't matter how bad your singing is. It will never do any harm. Don't worry about pitching every note accurately unless you are transcribing.

If you were tone deaf it would still help to sing falsetas. Don't be hung up about the quality of your voice,that's not helpful.

D.


its not about the quality of my voice or that i am tone-deaf.
its just that i (and i am pretty sure many others) can't even sing many notes correctly. human voice is an "instrument" too and if you never used it for singing, you can't sing some notes (high ones, etc.) correctly. it must be trained just like guitar. and i don't mean to have a nice voice but at least "correct" voice and pitch.

so how can that help me if not confuse me and make things worse and even more complicated as remembering falsetas already is.

quote:

If you can't sing it you can't play it.


doesn't make sense to me.

i am pretty sure many players don't (or can't) sing their falsetas, but play them pretty good on their guitars.



Arash -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 16:23:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Play the falseta while you are accompanying a singer. If it fails, you go back home con tanta verguenza that you will learn it por cojones. The next time you play for a singer it will come out right. Or you admit that it is beyond your level. Then you simplify it or play something easier until you can accompany thinking only of the cante, then the guitar plays itself.


when you accompany a singer and he sings, you more or less just play chords and are "quite (with falsetas)" until the singer is "finished" or pauses and lets you play your "singing" (falseta). falsetas are "singing" , the singing of your guitar. you don't do it simultaniously with the singing of the singer most of the time.
if you are alone and no singer is around, you "sing" alone (with your guitar).
simple as that. no myth, no legends, and no "the guitar magically plays itself as soon as a singer appears on the horizon" stories.



Morante -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 16:40:53)

Have you ever accompanied a singer?? Falsetas are used to give the singer a rest. If they don´t work, it is a disaster for the guitarrist, even if he gives the right chords to the cante (which is only a part of accompaniment). The pressure of accompaniment is high and that is where you find out if you can play a falseta or not.



Arash -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 16:53:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Have you ever accompanied a singer?? Falsetas are used to give the singer a rest. If they don´t work, it is a disaster for the guitarrist, even if he gives the right chords to the cante (which is only a part of accompaniment). The pressure of accompaniment is high and that is where you find out if you can play a falseta or not.


i don't think todays guitarists just play to give the singer a rest. things have changed a bit, you know. but anyway, this discussion is old and don't want to restart it.
and yes i have accompanied (or attempted to accompany) a singer (though i have to admit in Germany i only heard two guys who could sing ;) a little difficult here.



guitarbuddha -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 17:46:36)

I've heard your argument from about eighty percent of the teenage boys I've taught.

At some point they became self conscious and decided to stop singing. Then when I say that they should they think I am oppressing them. They are oppressing themselves.

There is a big difference between can and won't. Sure there is stuff I can play but have never sang. But there is nothing I can play that I couldn't give a fair shot singing. Unless I objected to singing on principal and developed the delusion that I couldn't. If you have a tongue you can sing, even if you are tone deaf.

About the confusion ,if you hear confusion in your voice then it is there already, the singing just lets you know.

Be careful what you believe.

D.



flyhere -> [Deleted] (May 13 2013 17:56:17)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 21 2014 22:17:00



Arash -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 18:15:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

I've heard your argument from about eighty percent of the teenage boys I've taught.

At some point they became self conscious and decided to stop singing. Then when I say that they should they think I am oppressing them. They are oppressing themselves.

There is a big difference between can and won't. Sure there is stuff I can play but have never sang. But there is nothing I can play that I couldn't give a fair shot singing. Unless I objected to singing on principal and developed the delusion that I couldn't. If you have a tongue you can sing, even if you are tone deaf.

About the confusion ,if you hear confusion in your voice then it is there already, the singing just lets you know.

Be careful what you believe.

D.


:/ , its strange what you are interpreting in what i said.
i am not objected to singing in principal or anything like that.
and i still don't understand why i should draw parallels between my singing abilities to my playing abilities. "the singing just lets you know that you are generally and musically confused" is not convincing for me, sorry.
for me singing and playing guitar are two different animals.

we are talking about falsetas!, not just few simple notes. so many notes, often times really complex stuff. i wanne hear one or two examples of people here singing some falsetas i will give to them as examples (and no, i don't want to hear nice voices, i just want to be able to recognize the falseta, that would be more than enough) and then we can see if we are even talking about the same issue or are talking at cross purposes. maybe i am totally misunderstanding what you guys mean with "singing the falseta"



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 18:29:25)

quote:

This is the best book I have ever seen for learning to read music on guitar.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Learning-Classic-Guitar-Part-2/dp/0871668556/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368450034&sr=1-6&keywords=aaron+shearer


I might have to pick up a copy. Shearer taught at Duquesne University for many years. He died in 2008...



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 18:43:50)

Here's a way to stimulate stress: play the falseta a certain amount of times in a row (for example, 3, 5, or 7) perfectly. If you fail, then you have to start from the beginning. Not only is it a way to make yourself do more reps than you might want to, but you will feel more stress and your concentration will improve.



tele -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 19:58:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Here's a way to stimulate stress: play the falseta a certain amount of times in a row (for example, 3, 5, or 7) perfectly. If you fail, then you have to start from the beginning. Not only is it a way to make yourself do more reps than you might want to, but you will feel more stress and your concentration will improve.


Some falsetas will then make me die of thirst[8D]



guitarbuddha -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 21:34:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

and then we can see if we are even talking about the same issue or are talking at cross purposes. maybe i am totally misunderstanding what you guys mean with "singing the falseta"



We are clearly talking at cross purposes. The thing that is being suggested is something that I am sure you can do already. I am SURE of that.

It is not possible to sing every note, you just do what you can to suggest the direction and clarify the rhythm AND FREE YOURSELF FROM RELIANCE ON MUSCLE MEMORY. It sounds like poop so noone is likely to upload it.

And if you can't do something with your voice to evoke the falseta then either you are beeing way too critical of yourself (not the purpose of the exercise) or you have been relying on muscle memory and there is probably a problem somewhere.

And that last bit isn't really up for debate. Musicians in all fields have know this for thousands of years.

D.



guitarbuddha -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 22:04:58)

OK here is an illustration.


Guitar World or Guitar Techniques or something does a feature on Jimmy Hendrix in an issue and the next week I have to listen to a dozen guys butchering Purple Haze.

I say,'That's not quite right' because actually it is bloody awful, they have went straight to the TAB and haven't really listened to the original.
They say 'But it is right, look here is the TAB, I am playing all those numbers'. I say 'Well Kinda'.

Now what is being played sounds like purest hogwash, even if all the notes are right. So I ask them to sing it the way they think it goes.
They say 'But it's guitar music sir'
I then smash the guitar over their heads and jump out of the window screaming.

The reason is that we are now in a position where they have a vested interest in proving their point by completely missing mine. I wouldn't mind so much but I have to listen to them play half assed nonsense for a much longer time because they are stuck stuck stuck and willfully oblivious.

Until I know what they are hearing in their head I cannot help them. And if the wont try and let me know by singing we are stuck.

Now I doubt very much that this describes you Arash but this Forum is for everyone and I honestly believe that using the voice in the learning process would be beneficial to everyone.

Why are you trying to convince them otherwise ? You suspected that I was bringing some baggage into this conversation and boy did I just confirm it.

So how about some quid pro quo, why don't you wanna sing and have you genuinely never heard anyone vocalise an instrumental melody, never heard a human beatbox, never heard Louis Armstrong scat, never seen a conductor pause to give an orchestral section advice on phrasing. Singing is how musicians communicate, it is the root and soul of all music. It is the most honest and immediate instrument.

And if you can't approximate a musical idea with your voice you at least know that the problem is not in your fingers it is in your head.

But if you only practice with your fingers and some of the problems are in your head then it is easy to get stuck stuck stuck.

D.



Arash -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 22:26:19)

My main point was i wanted to understand what Ricardo meant with singing, since he was saying that he sings the falsetas and that helped him to memorize better, and since i couldn't imagine how that should work, i needed more clarification and explanation.

In none of my posts i tried to convince others that singing doesn't help.
I was just curious and i was talking about myself. This is something i have never done. For me it was something new when talking about "learning falsetas" (The Threads title!)

Actually i normally have no problem in learning falsetas and to memorize them (well up to a certain limit of course and if i play them regurarly), but since he said that this singing could help in some situations, i was curious. and in addition even worried after reading the comment in which he said "it is not good to memorize via fingering and repetition" , since this is exactly what i have always done.

always good to learn new things. but first i have to understand what exactly is meant.

Your last post is more about the necessary groove, feeling, etc. of a piece instead of "robotic" kind of copying the correct notes without the other necessary "ingredients" i guess?? thats a little different story and is not so much related to memorizing things (like falsetas) and the proposed benefits of singing in this regard i guess.



guitarbuddha -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 22:35:44)

I appreciate the help in clarifying my own point Arash.

I think Ricardo means something similar.

And I hope that it doesn't sound like I am trying to pass myself as some kind of glowing example. I made a bad mistake the other day by analysing that Japanese music wrongly after having failed to invest enough time listening.


About memory, it seems like the less you have to remember the easier things will be to remember. But actually the opposite is true, the more things you have to remember the easier it is to have an 'in' to let the rest come back. And singing is a great way of unlocking the memory. I have seen patients with advanced dementia burst into song during therapy sessions and afterwards tell a story, and later still sink back into catatonia.



D. [:)]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 13 2013 22:54:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Here's a way to stimulate stress: play the falseta a certain amount of times in a row (for example, 3, 5, or 7) perfectly. If you fail, then you have to start from the beginning. Not only is it a way to make yourself do more reps than you might want to, but you will feel more stress and your concentration will improve.


Some falsetas will then make me die of thirst[8D]


Tele, in that case, you must choose a smaller "chunk" to repeat and perfect. A lot of diffulties stem from biting off more than we can chew. It's often faster to break things down, even though it seems like it would take longer.



tele -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 10:56:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria


Tele, in that case, you must choose a smaller "chunk" to repeat and perfect. A lot of diffulties stem from biting off more than we can chew. It's often faster to break things down, even though it seems like it would take longer.


Yeah I agree, its not like we are competing in something.



horationelson -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 13:06:49)

Long-term Memory

Long-term memory is where most of the action happens regarding the brain actually remembering things. This starts with encoding. Encoding is where the details of a long-term memory such as smells, colors or information are stored in the hippocampus of the brain. The hippocampus and frontal cortex then take all of this information and turn it into electrical signals that can be distributed to different areas of the brain connected by nerve pathways and synapses. One part of the brain may store the smell involved with the memory, while another part of the brain may remember a color, number, or even emotion.
Snyapse

How strong a memory remains in your brain depends on the strength of the synapse between the nerve cells associated with the memory. The more you practice or think about a piece of information stored in your brain, the more that particular synapse is going to be used. As the synapse is used more frequently, it grows in strength. This allows the memory to be more vivid and clear in your mind. If you do not access the memory often, the synapse begins to weaken. This may cause you to forget, or have a hard time remembering a memory that has not been accessed in some time.



britguy -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 13:14:27)

quote:

. So I ask them to sing it the way they think it goes.


Not quite sure what you mean by 'singing' here, Buddha.

Do you mean humming the melody; singing 'tra-la-la' to the tune, etc. That might not be easy for some?

To me, 'singing' means singing words to music.

I can keep a tune in my head pretty good. In fact I sometimes wake up in the night hearing a falseta note-for-note in my head. But if I can't remember - or figure out - how to play it on the fingerboard, then I can't play it. . .

One likely reason may be that I don't have a very fluent command of the fingerboard. But I don't think that's the only reason. . .



Sr. Martins -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 13:18:06)

Iam doing this and it totally works.

I begin by playing some powerchords in a phrygian key, some harmonic minor and then on top I sing with a raspy voice:

"Falseta, yeah falseta! Kill kill die die falseta!"


Feel free to try it.



guitarbuddha -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 13:44:53)

Gosh darn it you are right. Not everyone who can sing can play the guitar.

Why didn't I think of that.

Thank goodness you were here.

Good save Britguy[:)]



britguy -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 13:57:12)

quote:

Thank goodness you were here.


Well, one has to do what one can. . . (HO HO HO)
[:)]



guitarbuddha -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 14:06:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Iam doing this and it totally works.

I begin by playing some powerchords in a phrygian key, some harmonic minor and then on top I sing with a raspy voice:

"Falseta, yeah falseta! Kill kill die die falseta!"


Feel free to try it.


Thanks I'm doing that just now, and already I feel the benefit.

Also you can stand slightly to the side of a jam and join in with a thin squeaky voice, intermittently.

D.[:)]



Arash -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 14:30:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: horationelson

Long-term Memory

Long-term memory is where most of the action happens regarding the brain actually remembering things. This starts with encoding. Encoding is where the details of a long-term memory such as smells, colors or information are stored in the hippocampus of the brain. The hippocampus and frontal cortex then take all of this information and turn it into electrical signals that can be distributed to different areas of the brain connected by nerve pathways and synapses. One part of the brain may store the smell involved with the memory, while another part of the brain may remember a color, number, or even emotion.
Snyapse

How strong a memory remains in your brain depends on the strength of the synapse between the nerve cells associated with the memory. The more you practice or think about a piece of information stored in your brain, the more that particular synapse is going to be used. As the synapse is used more frequently, it grows in strength. This allows the memory to be more vivid and clear in your mind. If you do not access the memory often, the synapse begins to weaken. This may cause you to forget, or have a hard time remembering a memory that has not been accessed in some time.


One other thing i observed as for myself is that things that i learned as a teenager/kid (even those things which i didn't practiced a lot, but just learned for a short period of time) seam to have been burnt and etched in my mind (kind of like those related synapses seam to have been made of iron at that time :).
One example: i learned "spanish romance":D around 20 years ago.
And i swear i haven't played it the last 20 years. And for many years i even didn't touched the guitar at all.
And just a few days ago i heard it in radio, grabbed my guitar, and i played it without mistakes. The interesting thing is that i couldn't remember (visualize!) the chords, etc. i just played without thinking and my hand moved to the right chords and notes without thinking.

This is NOT the case with newer stuff i learned during the last years.
It works totally different, i have to think, remember, visualise, prepare for the next chord, etc.



keith -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 14:40:32)

britguy--nino ricardo supposedly hummed/made vocal noises while playing--in essence, he did not sing along but hummed/made vocal noises along. i find myself doing that as well. the recommendation to video oneself makes sense if that is your preferred learning style.



Arash -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 21:30:52)

ok now i know why Ricardo suggests singing the falsetas.

simply because the man can sing !!, thats not fair [;)]




Sr. Martins -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 14 2013 21:54:42)

Thats funny, I can imagine Ricardo singing "baby baby baby oh".. I thought he had a voice like Tom Waits, not this but it was very nice to listen to [sm=kiss.gif]



estebanana -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 12:05:23)

The way you remember falsetas is to make more dings in your guitars top and not care. Seriously beat it up and mark the top from playing it. Even more seriously, the slower you play in deep practice, the more you retain. Everything else is just BS. SLOW careful practice for 20 minutes will help you keep more music than three hours at playing speed. [:D]

It's like reading a book, go over a passage slow many times and you can recite it aloud. Same in music.

The technique to memorize is to play a phrase and then play it again without looking at the music. The slower you play the phrase while not reading the music the better. That is the method soloists use to memorize lengthy concertos. I learned this a long time ago from my cello teachers. It works.



britguy -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 12:30:37)

quote:

The technique to memorize is to play a phrase and then play it again without looking at the music. The slower you play the phrase while not reading the music the better. That is the method soloists use to memorize lengthy concertos. I learned this a long time ago from my cello teachers. It works.


I agree completely. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner I can get rid of the (written) music, the better. And the S L O W approach also works very well for me.

Where I have problems is if I don't play a particular falseta for a month or so. Then having the frustrating experience of not being able to remember exactly how I fingered it.

I think its probably age-related, but I have no problem remembering all the twelve-digit numbers on several of my credit cards?

I think it must be my 'finger' memory that's the problem. . .



guitarbuddha -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 13:08:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The way you remember falsetas is to make more dings in your guitars top and not care. Seriously beat it up and mark the top from playing it. Even more seriously, the slower you play in deep practice, the more you retain. Everything else is just BS. SLOW careful practice for 20 minutes will help you keep more music than three hours at playing speed. [:D]

It's like reading a book, go over a passage slow many times and you can recite it aloud. Same in music.

The technique to memorize is to play a phrase and then play it again without looking at the music. The slower you play the phrase while not reading the music the better. That is the method soloists use to memorize lengthy concertos. I learned this a long time ago from my cello teachers. It works.


And THATS how they nail those complicated syncopations !!!!![8|]



Ricardo -> RE: What's the best way to remember falsetas? (May 15 2013 13:49:42)

quote:

Sing it. Sing the rhythm of the falseta or phrase or strumming pattern or entire piece if you want. Beable


sing the rhythm...THE RHYTHM.... phrasing is how you memorize lots of material in meaningful long lasting easy to get back in the moment way, not slow motion repetition. Word by word does not even have meaning if you do it too slow talking about reciting or memorizing passages from books. You need the phrases to get the meaning and even the rhythm and flow and feeling of the thing. Epic poetry type stories were much easier to recite and memorize because they were songs and had a flow and rhythm.

About singing pitches, well complex falsetas jumping around are tough, but you can attempt to get some of the pitches accurate, the main point is the phrase or the melodic contour. Like imitate some speedy picado run of paco with the voice. You do some fast sound with the tongue (didle didle didle didle or trrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr etc) and the pitch just goes from medium, up high and down to lowest notes.... just the contour of the phrase is needed plus the accurate rhythm. If you get better over time you can eventually hit exact notes. But the important thing for memory is RHYTHM. Your fingers will find the notes because phrasing forces them to "remember".

I will go further and say that about myself singing like a song it's not fair what I suggest to players, you have the concept backwards. I can sing more in tune and do harmonies easier than some other singers (who search off track for a harmony part) because I visualize the notes on the guitar as I sing even a pop tune. Being able to play and phrase on guitar helps me hit pitches more accurate with my voice...but rhythms are a different thing than pitches. Try to sing some old cante like fandango de gloria or malagueña de mellizo and you find out that to get the right notes and rhythms it's even harder than most modern guitar falsetas to sing.



Page: <<   <   1 [2] 3    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET