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Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 21 2013 12:52:41)

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BarkellWH -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 13:27:26)

quote:

No. You simply dont know it and thus shouldnt have an opinion on it.


Thank you for confirming my observation above, Deniz. Couldn't have come up with a better example myself.

Cheers,

Bill



Ruphus -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 13:40:40)

I got to part with Bill on this one, Deniz.

To allocate "complexity" to something so sans anything thelike makes no sense.

This genre was founded by four guys who were craving to be productive without any performing ability in the same time, thus using two cassette recorders for slicing off of the great rock music of that time, loop the slices and not even capable of singing, raping over it.

And the sheer lack of musical contents being preserved to this day by an all the same pattern through decades. ( Most songs from day one to today you can even layer and align over each other, such same is the bovine structure of simplicity.)

From there, "complexity" of what!? Like of a peanut with its two cores and two shells?
If rap is to be considered complex then there simultaneously remains nothing of simplicity.

Ruphus



BarkellWH -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 13:42:05)

quote:

Trying to insult me doesn't make your points any stronger.


Says the poster-boy who labels comments with which he disagrees as "100 percent ignorance."

Bill



XXX -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 14:19:07)

Im too old to fight the "young vs old generation" fight.
Go out and listen to some beatz or you have no right.
To say things about things that you really dont know.
Go home little Homie, go home, my bro!



Ruphus -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 14:29:36)

Trying to find demanding predicate for repetitive cacophonies makes so much less sense anyway than googling up that music box I mentioned above.

That one could actually enhance one´s musical life, by allowing to access your personal playlists with the push of a button.

Should I finally get it to run, I will certainly be listening much more often than with the routine of past years ( where I have been putting on records only rarely anymore).

Just turning on a couple of devices and grabbing a remote control to have music served to taste for hours must be great.

Ruphus



Leñador -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 16:17:22)

I agree rap is no bueno, but hip hop aint all bad. These dudes are from a group I was associated with in high school, there is some rhythmical complexities here............just outed myself damn.......[:D]




Flamencito -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 16:27:07)

I have to support Deniz on this topic. Making ANY statement about the value of a specific genre of music is stupid in my opinion, since that would imply that within a genre there is no difference.

In this case it seems that Bill & Shroomy consider rap as a static form of music.. Actually it just means using your voice in a rhytmical way isnt it? So that doesnt say anything about its complexity or quality of music. It can range from a pop tune with some cheesey lines of rap, to the infinite..

This weekend I was seeing a jazz group, and a girl joint the stage impovising with rap. It was amazing how she interacted with the lead saxophone in a question-answer series.



Leñador -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 16:32:02)

quote:

joint the stage impovising with rap.

Maybe it was hip hop [:D]



Flamencito -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 16:39:05)

quote:

maybe it was hip hop


Lol, only thing that seemed clear to me, is that it sounded like music.



Ricardo -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 17:46:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Castelat

No offense but.. Its hard for me to understand how someone who likes Chopin, Satie, Debussy or any good Classical/Flamenco player also likes rap or heavy metal


It is offensive. It's called not understanding why people have eclectic tastes. As we focus we also see some people confused how someone can both enjoy sabicas AND very modern "jazzy" Paco de lucia concert.

And here we are talking about favorite musics and peoples personal tastes getting challenged. "how can you like THAT...that's not music????"[&:]

I remember years back someone simply asked for a list of favorite flamenco guitar albums and my choice of "Tauromagia" was challenged because of the irritating orchestra interjections. Seems people love challenging others likes or dislikes rather than try to open up to something they simple didn't know much about before.



[:D]



estebanana -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 18:01:08)

I like about 20% of rap the other 80% is total crap.

The same goes for every Pop genre.

Flamenco, Jazz, Classical and other musics that are older and more complex I get about 50% and the other 50 % is crap. Classical has some really bad music, Meyerbeer's operas? Ever suffer though that horrid stuff?

Give me Tupac or a six pack rather than Meyerbeer!



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 21 2013 18:35:19)

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chester -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 18:45:56)

quote:

To have that mentality for a complete genre of music is closed-minded IMHO.


Ok shroomy, sorry for lumping you in with barkellh.

Anyway, seems like we agree on the above point.

Regarding the decline of music and your supposed 70s 'golden age' - the people listening to crappy music now would probably not have been listening to ELP if they were born back then.

The evolution of recording technology allows many more people to produce albums, but the privatization and monopolization of the entertainment industry forces most underground. Keep your ears open - there's a lot of good stuff still happening, you're just less likely see it on TV or hear it on the radio.



Leñador -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 20:10:20)

quote:

there's a lot of good stuff still happening, you're just less likely see it on TV or hear it on the radio.


This is very true.

More hip hop that doesn't make me want to stab myself in the ears, and a very cool dude.




BarkellWH -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 20:25:46)

quote:

It is offensive. It's called not understanding why people have eclectic tastes. As we focus we also see some people confused how someone can both enjoy sabicas AND very modern "jazzy" Paco de lucia concert.


I agree 100 percent, Ricardo. In my opinion, one should speak only for one's self when offering opinions and making judgments about music. And they should recognize that people do have eclectic tastes. On the issue of rap, I made it very clear that I do not like it, and that I consider it (as I stated in a post above) "vaguely syncopated noise." I spoke only for myself. I did not suggest that anyone else should agree with me, nor did I suggest, as one post did about my comment, that anyone who disagreed did so out of "100 percent ignorance." (So much for "tolerance" for diversity and eclectic tastes!)

Likewise with your example of Sabicas and Paco de Lucia. I have made it clear in the past that my favorite is Sabicas, and that Paco de Lucia's concert with harmonica and bass guitar was very good and interesting music (especially the harmonica), but it took flamenco to a point where I no longer appreciated it as flamenco. Nevertheless, I recognize that you and others very much appreciate Paco de Lucia's concert as flamenco. It's not that I don't "understand" flamenco (or rap, as the case may be); it's just that these opinions reflect my taste. One can understand something without necessarily liking it.

What I object to are those who disagree with one's opinion or judgment in a disagreeable manner, by suggesting that such opinion or judgment can only be the product of "100 percent ignorance" or "lack of knowledge." They completely dismiss the personal factors involving experience, attitude, and taste.

Cheers,

Bill



chester -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 20:39:03)

quote:

100 percent ignorance.

Jesus christ - get over it. You made a blanket statement out of ignorance. We all make mistakes.

quote:

vaguely syncopated noise.

I'd love to lock you in a room and play you some musique concrete.

quote:

More hip hop that doesn't make me want to stab myself in the ears, and a very cool dude.

As far as hip hop, I'm more into the 'sunny california' vibe. Not exactly sophistication, but makes me smile. [:D]


But this is what I've been into recently -



Leñador -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 20:43:14)

Pharcyde also good, I only ever listened to LA underground.



chester -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 20:45:58)

Yeah yea but what about the Ravel? That sh1t is sooo beautiful. Listen to it a few times, once you can hum the melodies it goes up a level.

Funny thing about Pharcyde - I discovered them because they collaborated with Korn. [8D]



Leñador -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 21:19:52)

quote:

Korn.


Now your losin me [:D]

The Ravel is indeed pretty.



mezzo -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 21 2013 21:28:05)

quote:

original: BarkellWH

It is a sign of how much "dumbing down" has occurred in labels today that rap is even considered music in some circles.

This is soo scornful [:'(]
I couldn't believe it when I first read it. Hopefully some peoples are still awake here and able to react to this kind of contemptuosity.

"In my opinion, one should speak only for one's self when offering opinions and making judgments about music". [8|] yeah sure! That's exactly what you've done btw...



Ruphus -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 0:11:13)

I am guilty of the exact same thought.
When the sun of culture stands low even midgets will cast long shadows.

C`mon guys, you won´t really compare rap to intelligently sonor, refined music, will you.
Sure, even in the trashiest genres there can be found a handful of pieces that present a demanding exception; yet not making trivial segments pendant to genres that burst of structurally rich, vital and versatile creations.

A hot dog can be really fine on occasion, but it won´t match the finesse of advanced cusine.

Nursery rhymes are no symphonies for several very obvious reasons.

Ruphus



Leñador -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 0:47:12)

quote:

A hot dog can be really fine on occasion, but it won´t match the finesse of advanced cusine.


I agree completely. It doesn't compare in complexity at all. I posted the videos I posted so you could see that it's not all the bullsh you hear on the radio. There is some out there that deserves to be called music. You probably wont catch me listening to it except around very specific friends or if I'm in a very strange mood.

I do think some metal holds it's weight against the greats however.



Castelat -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 1:03:43)

When we discuss the real art and value of music, we have to ask what the purpose of that genre of music is when they created it, the answer depends on the intent of the creator. And what is the purpose of today's music? well either lyrically or visually is mostly intended by their creators to gain money, pick girls, have sex, see boobs and asses.. take drugs, do violence, have cars, all these kinds of irrelevant things... take a look at those videos most people watch. For me that's not a good purpose, and therefore I don't think that's art.

But this...





this gives you Love, Feelings, Humanity, Culture, Knowledge, Art... MUSIC.

: )



BarkellWH -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 1:04:30)

So, once again we find Mezzo in a state of high dudgeon. If it's not one thing, it's another, but always we can count on Mezzo being in a state of high dudgeon. This time over my comments on rap.

Let me explain carefully, Mezzo. When I stated that It is a sign of how much "dumbing down" has occurred in labels today that rap is even considered music in some circles, I am speaking of the dumbing down of language, of labels, in this case of the definition of music. I would say that over the last 40 years, language has become far less precise in an attempt to accommodate the lowest common denominator. One sees this phenomenon in all spheres of activity. Here in the U.S., there are schools that give "trophies" to every kid in a high school sport, whether he has accomplished anything or not. This is an attempt to create a false sense of "self esteem," although in my opinion it just serves to give the kid a false sense of accomplishment that will later come back to bite him in real life.

The same thing occurs with language. We have dumbed down language to the point where anything goes. I fully recognize that you and others may very well consider rap a genre of music. That does not mean I think you and others of a like mind are dumb. I do think, however, that the definition of music has been watered down to the point where it is understandable that someone might think it is music, although I do not. But I emphasize, that is my opinion. I am not criticizing you for your opinion; it is as valid for you as mine is for me.

Cheers,

Bill



NenadK -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 2:49:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
I would say that over the last 40 years, language has become far less precise in an attempt to accommodate the lowest common denominator.


What you refer to as accommodating the lowest common denominator some of us think of as broadening the definition and ultimately expanding our horizons. Ultimately it is not necessary to "define" music. Who has the right to tell someone what is a legitimate way of expressing themselves? What is accepted varies greatly over time and from generation to generation. Over the last 100 years every younger generation's choice of music has been dismissed as noise, dangerous or both. Some of us have learned this lesson from history and have the humility to question our own definitions and wonder whether they maybe need to be broadened. This is quite a different approach from trying to distance your own monocle taste from that of the people with different ones as if they're lepers.

Oh and also:




kikkoman -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 4:00:12)

im reminded of this video from this conversation. dequende in the background is hilarious




but for serious i find much virtuosity in beatboxing which i think has some derivation from the hiphop/rap genre



I recommend fast forwarding to 3 minutes and 20 seconds

I also find scratch DJ rather exhilariting as well especially when this guy put together a bunch of unrelated samples to produce the imperial march theme




chester -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 5:16:06)

quote:

Ultimately it is not necessary to "define" music.

Music is defined as 'sound organized in time'.

No one is saying it has to be high art. Of course a hot dog is not on the same level as beef wellington, but it's still food.

On that note - a solea is no symphony either, but who's to say which one is better?



XXX -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 8:10:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
I am not criticizing you for your opinion; it is as valid for you as mine is for me.


There is a useful concept called "truth" aka "knowledge". Your opinion on rap doesnt become valid only because you wish so. It is in fact invalid, whether this allows a statement about your person is another question. Considering that you are a retired officer and taking into account your conservative attitude, i think it very well does allow the statement that in your social circles rap should be generally looked down upon and you probably had zero to none exposure to this form of music anyway, at least not without prejudices. Sorry but you have no competence to make *any* judgement on rap. You may dislike it, but any statement that goes further than that is out of your reach. Unless you back up your statement, but i certainly dont see that coming.



Ruphus -> RE: Your musical interest apart from Flamenco? (Feb. 22 2013 8:49:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

Ultimately it is not necessary to "define" music.

Music is defined as 'sound organized in time'.

No one is saying it has to be high art. Of course a hot dog is not on the same level as beef wellington, but it's still food.

On that note - a solea is no symphony either, but who's to say which one is better?


Cognition.

As you belong to a minority that is aware of gross imbalances in our messed up world, you will certainly have sensed how preconditions for the insanity must be bound to severe gaps in recognition.
We are having a fundamental cognitive issue.

And while I know that you, my friend, agree on this you might be wondering how such could be connected to levels of culture / culture products.

We are without free will, basically functioning like the learning robots that we have started building over past decades. Like robots / machines from there, in that being dependent on input quantity.
From there we are in the same time fully dependent on the quality of the quantity, as it will inevitably determine our ability to differenciate ( and thus how surrounding, environment and future will be effected).

Monotony means mental neglect. A downgrading element hence used with brain washing methods.

So, ways of consume matter.
Todays trash culture is yesterdays Ceasar´s bread & games and kings´ stem from god.

Culture / culture products are absolutely not irrelevant to cognitive being, but decisive.
The planet needs humans that grow up with demanding creation so that they may appreciate beauty and singularity.
Under an indifferent premisse of `all is art´ however the blindness of status quo will proceede to doomsday.

Ruphus



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