Guitarrist's sound (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Guitarrist's sound: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=22272



Message


mentrida -> Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 2:32:06)

Just got a new cd, listened to it for the first time and ended up with a few questions. Thought the experience in this forum might help me figure some of it out.

So here I go. The cd is The Art of Flamenco, featuring Carlos Montoya (I only mention this in case someone has heard the cd, not to get into the actual player's reputation, etc.). After listening to all 19 tracks I was struck by how different the first 9 by Montoya sounded from the rest which were played by others. During the first 9, Montoya's talent is quite evident (wish I could play 1/10 as good) and he was quite aggressive, not holding back it seems. Yet I felt the playing harsh and two dimensional- meaning with the ability and style he has, I expected more depth or feeling? This was the case on the later songs which were performed for singers by other guitarrists. Left me wondering if I don't quite have the ear yet or am not educated enough in flamenco to appreciate his ability.

So here are my questions;
1) Has anyone heard the cd, and have felt the same?
2) could it be a case of the recording and not really the player?
3) Was his style more geared towards dancers/players and lost as a solo?
4) Is it possible to have such ability and yet not be able to express it?

The last is what really worried me. Could I end up learning some only to play without feeling....

What do you all think? and again, nothing to do with Montoya personally.

Si.




Miguel de Maria -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 4:50:30)

Mentrida,
your question is impossible to answer without talking about Montoya, since you are asking about Montoya. The playing probably seemed harsh and 2 dimensional because that's how he sounded. Your question was is it possible to have ability and not express it. I think that question implies an incorrect assumption--that emotional content or aire are separate from other parts of technique. Expression and aire IS the point of guitar, not making endless ligados or beating on the guitar and making a lot of noise. If you, yourself, make a point of practicing only picados and ligados and loud sounds on the instrument, you probably never will learn to how to play well. But if you start with musical sensitivity and taste, and it would help to listen to better musicians such as Sabicas or Paco de Lucia, not Carlos Montoya, and aspire to that as opposed to technical display, then you will...




duende -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 6:36:33)

why not go for RAMON MONTOYA. Im always amazed that everybodys listening to Carlos. Ramon was the mastero of that age so whats going on here?? Why is Carlos getting all the attention? I have a dubble cd set with Carlos. And it´s **** (compared to other pros)




Doitsujin -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 8:46:10)

Carlos was as Paco de Lucia very important for the development of the flamenco technic. He was the person who aded tremolo and many other technics to the flamenco. And he invented the Rondena-style on the solo guitar. He was a very impotatn part of flamenco. Romon Montoya wasnt so serious as Carlos. Many people say the Ramon played "show-flamenco" to get the money of unknownably foreigners. Thats what I read about the two.




gerundino63 -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 10:12:42)

Hi Doitsujin,

You mix up the names here, Ramon is the player who added the things you said, Carlos is his nepfew who is the lesser player.

-DUENDE-
Why Carlos is mentioned so often, is because he went to the States, and presented himself as the big flamenco guitarist from Spain.
Carlos played in all the big halls, and have many records, and was quite famouse over there ( USA) .

So, the old saying goes here too, " in the land of the blind, one eye is king..."[;)]

Peter




Doitsujin -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 11:57:11)

aah yes ... I allways mix them up.. Yes Ramon is the person I meant. And he aded arpegio-technics, too to the flamenco.




duende -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 16:41:52)

quote:

aah yes ... I allways mix them up..


i expect apologies and a case of whiskey in the mail pronto!![:D]




Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 18:16:41)

quote:

So here are my questions;
1) Has anyone heard the cd, and have felt the same?
2) could it be a case of the recording and not really the player?
3) Was his style more geared towards dancers/players and lost as a solo?
4) Is it possible to have such ability and yet not be able to express it?



I have the CD you mention plus many others as well as LP’s of Carlos Montoya.

Carlos was one of the best accompanists for singers and dancers. Just one person he accompanied was Carmen Amaya, and I have tapes I made of those events. I also have tapes of Carlos playing for many other singers and dancers and he was electrifying and at the same time never got in the way of the principal performer.

The story goes that Carlos lived in his famous uncle Ramon’s house, and Ramon refused to give Carlos any lessons or advice about flamenco. Carlos learned on his own and made a name for himself in Spain. He married an American who convinced Carlos to begin a career as a Concert Flamenco Guitarist, and he was the first to do so. So we owe something to Carlos regardless of how his solo playing may be compared to others.

We called Carlos, “the carpenter” (el carpintero), because of his style, and we refereed to Sabicas as, “the angel”, two very different styles. I knew Carlos and Sabicas and talked to them many times and received a great deal of advice and encouragement from both.

Carlos was a very humble person whom I consider a good friend and very talented.

As for how any performer approaches playing music is up to them. Some people can convey great emotion through their playing and others cannot. Flamenco happens to be a very emotional music form and you can either respect that or not.

I find that the vast majority of new flamenco guitarists think that flamenco is only about guitar and have no concept of compas, accent or feeling. Solo flamenco guitar is a music form that is enjoyed by many who know little or nothing about flamenco. It is as if some people have taken the preference from music which they grew up with from rock and roll and applied it to “flamenco”.

Over amplified music that includes fast picados and has no feeling is not my cup of tea. The term “licks” annoys me when applied to flamenco but it is commonly used by some all too often. Yet, others love flamenco in this form, so what can I say?




Ron.M -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 20:17:56)

Hi Tom,
I have similar kinds of feelings with respect to the newer Flamenco.
Some of it is very good and thoughtful, but some of it is very contrived and pseudo-cool just for it's own sake.
I can tell pseudo-cool within seconds of hearing it as I'm sure others here can too.
Not my cup of tea either, regardless of the speed of the picado.
I need the music to say something about the guy's personality or experiences.
Then I start to relate.
Playing music easily gives so much more away about yourself and your inner thoughts than you think.
Much more than folk can observe from things like your speech or body language IMO.
A psychiatrist could have a field day.
That's why it's one of the Arts...

cheers

Ron




duende -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 20:33:10)

i realy don´t like that disco flamenco..call me old school or what but "solo quiero caminar" is as modern as i go.. I like more modern cd´s or LP´s (Ron) But they take more listening before i get in to them.

subquestion.

Why does fast picado = Modern flamenco?? Just listen to Duquendes Samaruco. It´s just ****ing great. Modern chords? Yes. But it´s just 100% flamenco from start to finnish.
and i can´t recall one singel fast picado in the entire album


Ps. I had 5 Gunniess so i don´t know if it´s me or the stout....burp![8D]




Guest -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 21:21:54)

You have Guiness in Sweden??? Joder! They have it in Spain but I would'nt drink it here.

Sean




duende -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 21:23:42)

yea we got plenty!!!! and murphys are good tooo!!!




Doitsujin -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 21:41:04)

quote:

i expect apologies and a case of whiskey in the mail pronto!!

すみません すみません すみません。。 ヅエンデ は カルォス と ラモン が しります よ! ぼく は ちがう しました。。[;)]
I hope this tiny apology is ok. But I think the idea with the wiskey inst so good after 5 beer.^^




duende -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 21:46:50)

ok i forgive you[:D]
I just had my 6th gunniess but thats it it... after that it bed




Ricardo -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 22:02:19)

I like good players period, regardless of "style" or relative purity, traditional, modern, picado, no picado, whatever. I have several Carlos M. records I bought or inherited. I am always willing to give an artist a chance, but so far I have never been impressed. Sometimes I have been irritated by his playing. I would rather listen to Sabicas strumming two chords. He had style or whatever you want to call it. I would even rather listen to V Amigo's SMOOOOOTHEST jazzy stuff, or Nino de Pura's picado fest. Everyone has their own tastes. PDL grabs me with every note, and I know I am not the only one.

Ricardo




duende -> RE: Guitarrist's sound (Oct. 15 2005 22:05:01)

quote:

I am not the only one.

amen




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET