Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Full Version)

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britguy -> Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 25 2013 15:33:36)

This may sound like a dumb question for the techies in here, but is there any kind of method or programme available that will convert notation to TAB?

A coupler of years ago, the late Ron Purcell sent me a copy - from the IGFA library - of the music score that Vicente Gomez played in the movie "Snows of Kilimanjaro", and I'm having trouble getting it just right. One reason being the notation is difficult to follow (for me), and the other being that Vicente actually wrote this piece for two guitars, which he overdubbed for the sound track.

Ron told me I could probably figure out how to play it on one guitar, but after a couple of years trying, I'm still not sure exactly what notes to play.

If anybody can offer any help I'd certainly appreciate it. I've been trying to learn this piece since I first saw the movie in 1958. That's a long time to be trying to learn a piece. . .



Leñador -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 25 2013 16:00:56)

I don't think there is a direct translator that just spits it out, though not impossible. The program would have to pick which place to play that note, for example there's 2 places to play a C3 on a fretboard so the trying to tell the program what fingerings would be comfortable for a human hand might be tough but not impossible.

With Guitar Pro you could manually enter everything and it would spit out tabs but I think you run into that fingering issue again so you'd have to adjust a little for that. Or, you could pay someone to do it for you. If it's a short diddy(2 pages or so) I'd do it for free.



Doitsujin -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 25 2013 16:22:21)

See it from the following perspective. People who wrote flamenco only in notation are in 99% of the cases not skilled at all in flamenco...and they did it completely wrong. Dumb the notation and learn by ear. Its more accurate and quicker than decipher the ideas of some classical nerds who did it wrong anyways. cheeeers =)



britguy -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 25 2013 21:00:09)

quote:

Or, you could pay someone to do it for you. If it's a short diddy(2 pages or so) I'd do it for free.


Well, I'd be quite willing to pay someone for their time and expertise. And I appreciate your offer of doing a freebie. It is actually only a couple of pages that I need. The rest I can figure out by ear.

How about if I have Strings by Mail send you a couple of sets of your favourite strings, and I'll cover the cost? Would that be O.K.?



Leñador -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 25 2013 21:16:51)

That'd be more then fair, you have access to a scanner? Also, It'd be ideal if I could hear the song if it's up on youtube or something.....



bernd -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 1:19:17)

The best solution for transcribing TAB by my opinion is Finale. It compatible to SmartScore which is a scan software reading score sheets in standard notation. This software shows what it has not recognized, so it can be corrected. After the correction is done, the scanned sheet is being transfered into Finale. In Finale you can set up the layout, adding TAB lines and generate a rhythm tablature automatically. In the older version I have, fingerings, barre symbols and specific guitar signs must be added manually. If this is done, you can hide the standard notation and replace the TAB lines for its final layout.

While generating the tablature automatically, only the lowest possible fret is used. If some passages are played in an absolute position, this range can be selected. For such parts mostly the correct strings are chosen automatically and you save a lot of time in the follow-up. The follow-up of correting tones from a specific string to another is being done fast and easy by clicking the fretnumber und pull it onto another string. The correct fretnumber appears automatically.

As I had offered scoring service in the 1990th years, I made some classical TAB-only transkriptions complete with fingerings and all what you see in a standard notation sheet. Although later Finale versions produce a more comfortable processing and a more eye-friendly sheet, my versions look very good, too. Especially they doesn´t look that lousy like GuitarPro. For classical Tabs I´ve come over to do it by hand. If desired, I´ll post a sample page of Asturias (Albéniz) as PDF, that was printed out in Finale from the 90th (then scanned as a picture and generated as pdf) - just see what a good result can look like, not to grab an order [;)]

Saludos
Bernd



Elie -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 6:59:01)

you can write the notation to GuitarPro and it will give you the corresponding TAB I think same applies to power-tab and finale

the problem is who will write it for you?
Today's generation is so good at those stuff



guitarbuddha -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 13:57:11)

I honestly think that the best solution would be to work on the piece with a teacher who understands and plays flamenco but can also read, they will be able to go through the score with you and help with fingerings.

If it was me here's what I would tell you to do. Work out the tune by ear to the best of your abilities so you can sing it along with a recording. As you do this tap your foot on the beat along with the recording, it has to be rock steady. Actually look at your foot and see that it is not speeding up and slowing down as this is a sure sign of confusion This will REALLY help with understanding the rhythm.

Quite seperately work on a chord chart which represents the chord progression, play this along with the recording making sure it sounds right. It doesnt have to be the same as the recording at all but it mustn't clash with the recording. It is a good idea to play simple chords like triads and sevenths, if possible in open position and easy to finger.

When you have done this to your own satisfaction learn to play the tune on the guitar simplifying where necessary to suit your current technique. Then begin starting to incorporating the harmony. Start by adding just a bass note where the chords change. Play real slowly and look at your hand and try and find where you can grab a few more notes of the chord where they lie under your fingers as you play the bass and melody.

Be prepared to take your time and let the arrangement grow organically with your understanding. In the end it will be worth it as you will be playing material which you completely understand and which is based on what you actually can do.

Another tip is to work really hard on fingering just the first four bars. Often what you learn doing this will carry you a good way through the piece.

Good luck.

D.

PS if you post the score and a recording I can at least tell you if the score is right.



bernd -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 14:00:15)

quote:

Today's generation is so good at those stuff

I consider this a rumor. If you take a serious look to the free transcriptions made with cheap software, 90% is not playable. They are incomplete and full of mistakes. Quality has its price, no matter which tool was used.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 14:01:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bernd

quote:

Today's generation is so good at those stuff

I consider this a rumor. If you take a serious look to the free transcriptions made with cheap software, 90% is not playable. They are incomplete and full of mistakes. Quality has its price.

Agreed.



britguy -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 15:01:03)

quote:

the best solution would be to work on the piece with a teacher who understands and plays flamenco but can also read


Yes, I completely agree. That would be ideal. And I do know a teacher who could probably do that, but he's away out of town for an extended period.

Actually this piece is not really flamenco at all. It is based on Vicente Gomez' earlier composition; "Granada Arabe" (Zambra Mora) - which he modified somewhat to fit the (pseudo-flamenco?) dancing scene in the movie.

But its very hard to follow the guitar in the soundtrack, due to the intense dialogue between Gregory Peck and Ava Gardner. That's why I went to so much trouble to get a copy of the score. Also the score is written for two guitars, which makes it even harder to pick out the exact notes.

The only sound recording I've been able to locate is the actual movie, which is available here:

http://archive.org/details/Kilimanjaro?start=1319.5

The dancing scene starts at 48:30, right after the bullfight. Lasts only a few minutes. . .

If anyone has any comments, I'd be interested.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 16:12:09)

Try this sequence for the intro. Capo seventh fret. Dm Am E7 Am. Its called minor blues, happens a lot in farucca. He throws in lots of solea moves

Practice playing scales in tenths in the key of C (capo seventh fret) for the 'two guitar' sound.

Pretty sure this is improvised based on loads of cliches and stock moves and whatever he felt like on the day.

Good luck.



NormanKliman -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 19:29:59)

quote:

If anyone has any comments, I'd be interested.


I respectfully suggest that by focusing on this bit of music...you're setting yourself up for frustration. There are two guitars, there's no indication as to the accuracy of the transcription and, most importantly, there isn't a clear recording of your targeted music. Furthermore, it's not a style you already have under your belt, is it? One of the premises of teaching/learning is to use familar material to learn new forms.

I suggest you choose something similar of which there are better quality recordings and/or reliable transcriptions. The Vicente Gómez recording you mentioned seems to me to be a more logical choice (I've just had a quick listen to "Granada Árabe" and the sixth string is tuned to D).

I think it would be best to spend some time working out your favorite bits and pieces of this style (zambra, danza mora, there are several names) from different guitarists. After a year at the most (and what's one year after waiting for 55 years?[:)]) you should be able to play the style perfectly well, and it'd be a much more flamenco way of learning than studying an entire piece. I'm sure that if you upload to this forum your targeted bits and pieces, you'll get more feedback than you really want or need. I for one will lend a hand with something like that. But I wouldn't touch that soundtrack/transcription with a 10-foot pole.[:)]



britguy -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 20:56:01)

quote:

by focusing on this bit of music...you're setting yourself up for frustration.


Of course, you are absolutely right.

Since about 1958 (on and off ) I've been farting around with this piece, trying to get it just the way it sounded in the movie.

I actually have the basic theme off pretty close right now; from the music I got from Ron Purcell. But not exactly as I'd like it to sound. As you point out; it's two guitars playing, and I'm certainly not (and never will be ) a Vicente Gomez! But I thought I'd try getting a TAB to see if I could improve my interpretation of the score notation. Maybe it's just a waste of time and energy, better spent elsewhere. . .

I think your advice it well taken. Maybe I should just be content with it the way I have it now, and move on.

Incidentally, I am suprized you mentioned that the "Granada Arabe" recording you heard has a dropped D tuning? Was this just from listening to the recording? The music I have shows the original "Granada Arabe" (copyright 1940 American Academy of Music Inc. )to be in the key of E minor, the same as the movie score. No mention on the copy of tuning the 6th to D.

Curious. . .



NormanKliman -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 21:16:33)

quote:

Incidentally, I am suprized you mentioned that the "Granada Arabe" recording you heard has a dropped D tuning? Was this just from listening to the recording? The music I have shows the original "Granada Arabe" (copyright 1940 American Academy of Music Inc. )to be in the key of E minor, the same as the movie score. No mention on the copy of tuning the 6th to D.


Yeah, just from listening. It's very obvious, but sometimes track titles get changed. This one's a zambra/danza mora, though, definitely. Anyway, the file's too large to upload here. If you indicate an e-mail address, I'll send it to you as an attachment. I've got a bunch of recordings of Manuel Bonet, as well, so let me know if you're interested.



Ricardo -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 22:39:40)

i recommend you do it YOURSELF...by hand...with pencil and staff paper with the 6 lines. Learn how to do it note by note....erase when it is wrong or sounds wrong after you play one line at a time. That way you both learn how to play it AND learn something about transcriptions both at once. It will take a little time but what you gain in the long run will be invaluable.

I did this as a kid in high school with some Bach passages I enjoyed and really learned tons both about notation, and technique...finding the best way to play something to make it sound right.

Ricardo



britguy -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 23:04:50)

quote:

I've got a bunch of recordings of Manuel Bonet, as well, so let me know if you're interested.


WHAT!!! you have recordings of my old teacher, Manolo Bonet!!! Where on earth did you get those?

I had my very first lessons from Manolo when he lived on Calle de Tribulete in Madrid in 1958. He taught me basic Soleares and Alegrias rasguedos and falsetas; with lots of : "NO Hombre, NO NO NO!!! and would bang his stick on the floor. But when you got it right it was : "Eso, Eso, Eso," and kissed his fingertips. With Manolo you always knew when you got it right. . . and he had a beautifull old Santos Hernandez.

I'd love to have some of those recordings. I'll PM you.



bernd -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 23:43:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

i recommend you do it YOURSELF...by hand...with pencil and staff paper with the 6 lines. Learn how to do it note by note....erase when it is wrong or sounds wrong after you play one line at a time. That way you both learn how to play it AND learn something about transcriptions both at once. It will take a little time but what you gain in the long run will be invaluable.

I did this as a kid in high school with some Bach passages I enjoyed and really learned tons both about notation, and technique...finding the best way to play something to make it sound right.


I agree. But there´s a common problem that guitarists who can´t read standard notation can´t write properly TABs, because they can´t read rhythm.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 26 2013 23:57:57)

i'm not sure what you mean, can you point to an example?
i can't read notation well but i've done many tabs, and i want to learn from others' mistakes...



El Kiko -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 27 2013 1:09:34)

Totally agree , do it your self , it will be a labour of love and you will learn so much by doing it , so many people are so lazy if they had a computer that would actually reach out and move your fingers in to the right positions , they would use it , and then say ... why doesnt it sound right , ? like I thought it would ...
?
Notation is MUCH MUCH better than TAB , thats why it was developed .. TAb i s only a step backward .. it gives you where to put your fingers but not when to do it ,.. i.e ..there is no rhythmn ...so you have to have heard the piece first ....etc etc ...

my best advice would be to not have TAb and just work through notation that you have bit by bit ...if it is well notated then it will be more useful and accurate than any TAB you would get ...

you gotta do some work to get some result ...sheesh [8|]



bernd -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 27 2013 2:42:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

i'm not sure what you mean, can you point to an example?
i can't read notation well but i've done many tabs, and i want to learn from others' mistakes...

I think you mean, you´ve transformed music notation into tab. For this case, of course the rhythm is given and you just copy it including the stems to the fret numbers. But when you write down you own composition in tab and cannot read music very well, I´m very sure will get problems to make the rhythmical structures correctly. This is also one specific reason why lots of free tabs are useless.
An example: you transcribe a guitar piece with funky rhythm passages into tab just by ear, from that you don´t have a music sheet. The rhythm structure won´t be correct, because you have too less practice in writing and checking rhythmical structures correctly. So the result cannot be correct.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 27 2013 7:04:10)

i see what kind of tabs you're referring to, but i wouldn't even call those proper tabs...in my eyes proper tabs have also notation, so i read 5+6 lines simultaneously, the notation for rhythm, the tab for the notes...that's how i prefer to make my own...one of course can get rid of the notation line and still get good results, it just doesn't look too "elegant"...



NormanKliman -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 27 2013 7:32:36)

quote:

WHAT!!! you have recordings of my old teacher, Manolo Bonet!!! Where on earth did you get those?

[:D] I thought you might enjoy hearing that. Just to be clear, they're not solo guitar but his accompaniment of several singers in MP3 copies of 78-rpm recordings from the early 1920s to the early 1950s. There are 43 of them, so there are several different styles (no zambra/danza mora, though).

quote:

So the result cannot be correct.

bernd: I think it is naturally easier for some people because of the way their brains work. Maybe it would be better to say the opposite: that it seems to be difficult or impossible for a few people. I have met talented musicians who have read music (pentagram) all their lives but are not able to write even a simple tab.



bernd -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 27 2013 14:51:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

quote:

So the result cannot be correct.

bernd: I think it is naturally easier for some people because of the way their brains work. Maybe it would be better to say the opposite: that it seems to be difficult or impossible for a few people. I have met talented musicians who have read music (pentagram) all their lives but are not able to write even a simple tab.

Norman: Such people seem to be an exception due to incomplete apprenticeship in music theory. Early classical guitar tab notation is based on the french tablature system. It´s almost the same as the common tabsystem as we know it today. The difference is the arrangement of the bass strings being placed above the trebles, so the 6th E strings is the first line.

For me it´s easier to read music notation. Whether a particular transcription is available in tab, I prefer a tab-only version. It saves paper and has less information that is not needed or even wanted. For an example see the demo jpg below (the pdf looks much more tidy).



NormanKliman -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 27 2013 16:36:00)

quote:

Such people seem to be an exception due to incomplete apprenticeship in music theory.


Are you saying that most people need a formal education in theory to be able to understand time values? I'm pretty sure that's not true. It's about as simple as understanding fractions and a scale on a ruler. On an even more basic level, very few flamenco guitarists know about time values but they understand the distinction (the feeling) between eighths, triplets, sixteenths, etc. and combinations of these values. I have taught near-illiterate gypsies who learned the basics in just a few minutes.

Thanks for the information and the example. I prefer the simplicity of tab, too. If you're interested, see my site for more information:

http://www.canteytoque.es/jacara.htm



bernd -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 27 2013 20:55:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

Are you saying that most people need a formal education in theory to be able to understand time values? I'm pretty sure that's not true. It's about as simple as understanding fractions and a scale on a ruler.

I´m saying it not generally but for those who made the useless transcriptions offered for free, not for guitarists who just want to play. If you put all the free stuff of tabs together, flamenco music is just a very small part. People who know their music will always have a distinction on how to play music values. But I´m neither a gitano nor a Spainard. As I was lucky having found lots of free flamenco tabs roundabout 15 years ago, I was so happy. Having started and taken some serious looks on these "transcriptions" I was disappointed and threw it all away.

I made the same experience on classical tabs as well. I´m speaking of tab-only versions scored by ear, not including a standard notation. Listening to the CD track and following such transcription is a horror! I state that most of people providing free tabs for classical or flamenco produce too much trash for being taken seriously. The prime example were so called "transcriptions" by Paco de Lucía and other famous tocaores with a title in the headline and countless fretnumbers all written in the same distance, no fingerings and nothing else. - Wow! You will never learn anything from such useless stuff. Imho these authors want to profile theirselves to be of importance.

Thx for the link. I like the music of Gaspar Sanz and have a lot here (although I´ve played very less). If I can read music, then I won´t need tab. As I was still teaching, I made an experiment. One group of pupils received music sheets with tab below like your Sanz transcriptions while the others received standard music notation for about 6 month. In the beginning the first group learnt faster, but after 3 month they clearly learnt slower with many mistakes superficially and forgot a lot of knowledge on reading music notation.

I know there are many very skilled guitarists who can´t read music notation. Such people are the reason for my work on tabs. I want to provide them a serious transcription as tab-only versions beyond the beginners level but complete and ready to go.



britguy -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Jan. 27 2013 21:24:45)

quote:

they're not solo guitar but his accompaniment of several singers in MP3 copies of 78-rpm recordings from the early 1920s to the early 1950s. There are 43 of them, so there are several different styles (no zambra/danza mora, though).


That's fine. I never knew Manolo had recorded, but would love to have a few of those in my files. I have such fond memories of that gritty old guy with the stick. He went with me to pick up my first flamenco guitar - a blanca from the old Ramirez shop on Conception Jeronima, where we chatted with Jose 111 and his wife - (who spoke perfect English). Seems like another lifetime.

But after more than 55 years, I still have Manolo's calling card: (see pic attached).

Can you select a few (maybe half-dozen or so) good examples of Manolo playing Soleares, Alegrias and Fandangos de Huelva and email them to me? I'll be happy to cover any costs.

Thanks Norm. You're such a valuable resource. . Too bad you weren't around when I was first learning. . .

I'll P.M. my email.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Mar. 2 2013 0:45:12)

quote:

Early classical guitar tab notation is based on the french tablature system. It´s almost the same as the common tabsystem as we know it today. The difference is the arrangement of the bass strings being placed above the trebles, so the 6th E strings is the first line.


That’s Italian tablature: French tablature has the bass-string at the bottom and uses alphabetics for the frets.

I second what Ricardo said about doing it yourself, except that it’s easier to write it using notation software (such as Finale). Then you can play it back at the proper speed and see if it sound right.



bernd -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Mar. 2 2013 8:56:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

That’s Italian tablature: French tablature has the bass-string at the bottom and uses alphabetics for the frets.

This is a new info to me. I thought it was another french version. Thx for this correction.



gerundino63 -> RE: Transcribing notation to TAB??? (Mar. 2 2013 9:39:21)

I go with Ricardo here, it is very usefull to do it yourself.

Here is an "instrument" that I always use....[:D]



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