maple or cypress

maple or cypress (Full Version)

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ramon roman -> maple or cypress (Nov. 11 2012 0:04:16)
Hi all, I am looking to buy a flamenco guitar. I need info, as to what is better, a cypress back and sides, or a maple back and sides?? Also are there opinions as to a thin body vs standard depth. Any pros and cons on a cut away or no cut away? How about electronics, yea or nay? I know it is a lot of questions, but it would be very helpful. Thank you,

keith -> RE: maple or cypress (Nov. 11 2012 0:23:13)
personally i prefer real cypress--for the tone and definitely for the aroma.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: maple or cypress (Nov. 11 2012 9:00:07)
Do you prefer Bordeux or Bourgogne? Its a matter of taste. I clearly prefer cypress over maple on flamenco guitars. Maple can make some very nice lyrical classical and steelstring acoustic guitars.

jshelton5040 -> RE: maple or cypress (Nov. 11 2012 15:59:08)
quote: ORIGINAL: ramon roman I am looking to buy a flamenco guitar. I need info, as to what is better, a cypress back and sides, or a maple back and sides?? Many years ago I played Manuel a de la Chica with flame maple back and sides that I still remember as one of the best guitars I've ever held in my hands. The back and sides have minimal effect on the tone of the guitar. The topwood is where the sound is produced. Find the guitar that you enjoy playing and buy it.

ramon roman -> RE: maple or cypress (Nov. 11 2012 16:40:12)
Thank you Keith, Anders and John. Very informative, as I did not know that the back and sides have minimal effect. C.J.G.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: maple or cypress (Nov. 11 2012 21:51:26)
quote: I did not know that the back and sides have minimal effect. Well, thats Johns perception of the issue. I dont see it quite the same way. AND more than anything else, I FEEL a difference when I play and that makes me produce a different sound OR it makes me feel uncomfortable.

TANúñez -> RE: maple or cypress (Nov. 11 2012 22:54:50)
quote: Hi all, I am looking to buy a flamenco guitar. I need info, as to what is better, a cypress back and sides, or a maple back and sides?? Also are there opinions as to a thin body vs standard depth. Any pros and cons on a cut away or no cut away? How about electronics, yea or nay? I know it is a lot of questions, but it would be very helpful. Thank you, You should first ask yourself what your planning on playing with the guitar. If your playing strictly or mainly flamenco, go with cypress and a standard body depth. Basically a traditional flamenco guitar. Electronics if your a gigging musician but not necessary. You could always mic up which I prefer. If you play latin based music in general and you gig, then I can see going with a thin body cutaway with electronics as many musicians do and I'd probably go with maple. I personally feel there is a bit more than a minimal effect on the tone. Especially when comparing between cypress and a rosewood. Particularly in the basses. I like maple because to my ears, it's a nice mix between the two.

elias -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 3 2023 3:28:08)
What are the big differences tonally between cypress and maple? I don't think I could point out the difference between the two blindfolded but I don't have much experience with maple. Maybe more warmth and woodiness (oud sounding) to cypress? Maple more crystalline while retaining a strong fundamental?

estebanana -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 3 2023 5:43:40)
quote: ORIGINAL: elias What are the big differences tonally between cypress and maple? I don't think I could point out the difference between the two blindfolded but I don't have much experience with maple. Maybe more warmth and woodiness (oud sounding) to cypress? Maple more crystalline while retaining a strong fundamental? There’s hardly any difference.

constructordeguitarras -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 3 2023 15:50:18)
quote: more than anything else, I FEEL a difference I once made two flamenco guitars with maple back and sides. They were heavy and the heaviness bothered me so much that I gave them away. They sounded good, though. There are various kinds of maple, though. I had used "rock hard maple" which is denser than soft maple.

estebanana -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 3 2023 18:28:29)
quote: ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras quote: more than anything else, I FEEL a difference I once made two flamenco guitars with maple back and sides. They were heavy and the heaviness bothered me so much that I gave them away. They sounded good, though. There are various kinds of maple, though. I had used "rock hard maple" which is denser than soft maple. European maple is lighter than the North American heavy maple. Different species. But I think side by side cypress and European maple are more similar than cypress vs rosewood.

Ricardo -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 3 2023 19:31:03)
quote: ORIGINAL: elias What are the big differences tonally between cypress and maple? I don't think I could point out the difference between the two blindfolded but I don't have much experience with maple. Maybe more warmth and woodiness (oud sounding) to cypress? Maple more crystalline while retaining a strong fundamental? You have to qualify the differences somehow. I have a Sanchis Maple (Arce) and had the opportunity to compare it to the cypress and Indian Rosewood equivalents. So the main difference between cypress and Rosewood was the Rosewood guitar had more perceived bass, brightness, and sustain, the cypress has more mid range and rapid decay. In this regard the maple was right between the two….the bass was certainly there but it was not AS bassy, or bright, but not as midrangey and dry as cypress. I had similar experience with “Lawson cypress” aka port orford Cedar. I would say those two woods had more in common with each other than they did with either Mediterranean cypress or Rosewood. Weight is also “in the middle” so to speak, where cypress would be lighter weight and rosewood heavier. When I went to record myself and have a blind playback, the rosewood, cypress, port orford, and maple, all sounded exactly the damn same! [:D][:D] I could not tell which guitar was which despite having just played them moments before. Perception is key. Cypress smells the best BY FAR!

Joan Maher -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 4 2023 20:05:11)
Cypress

mark indigo -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 5 2023 13:05:41)
quote: What are the big differences tonally between cypress and maple? I don't think I could point out the difference between the two blindfolded but I don't have much experience with maple. Maybe more warmth and woodiness (oud sounding) to cypress? Maple more crystalline while retaining a strong fundamental? estebanana says maple is closer to cypress, Ricardo says maple is between cypress and rosewood. I read somewhere (can't remember if it was here on the foro or somewhere else) that maple was closer in sound to rosewood. Is there any way to "prove" it with some kind of data? Wood density? I also read somewhere (Bruné?) that maple was used for "premium" flamenco guitars in Spain before the civil war. I guess if that were true, and the sound was closer to rosewood than cypress you could have a "negra" sound from a "blanca" looking guitar... I have no evidence either way, so it's in "open-minded sceptic agnostic" folder currently waiting validation or proof either way...[:D]

Joan Maher -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 5 2023 13:18:54)
Torres built quite a few guitars with Maple and Romanillos was a big fan, here is a guitar of Romanillos with maple back and sides https://youtu.be/VzTLBro45JY?feature=shared

Manitas de Lata -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 5 2023 13:25:40)
And Framus and or Hofner , cant quit remember

elias -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 5 2023 23:03:15)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joan Maher Torres built quite a few guitars with Maple and Romanillos was a big fan, here is a guitar of Romanillos with maple back and sides https://youtu.be/VzTLBro45JY?feature=shared I still think I hear more glassiness from the maple and a woody character to cypress. They remain very similar otherwise. I love cypress for classical.

bftobin -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 23 2023 1:14:50)
There is a lot more to it than the color of the back and sides. There can be nigra and blanco classical guitars or flamenco guitars. Romanillos has a preference for Cypress in classical guitars. What is acceptable in a flamenco guitar (such as buzzing) is not acceptable in classical guitars. The construction of the flamenco guitar is different than the classical, such as the bridge and height of the strings over the top. As for 'Maple', iirc the European variety is called Sycamore in the Americas.

Firefrets -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 23 2023 17:57:09)
What about sycamore?

bftobin -> RE: maple or cypress (Dec. 25 2023 17:17:24)
Much of the European "maple', is a VARIETY of maple known as Acer Pseudoplatanus. This variety is known as Sycamore Maple in the UK and as Sycamore in America.While America has several types of Maple, such as Hard Maple, Sugar Maple, Silver Maple, Red Maple, Big Leaf Maple, but they do not list Sycamore as a Maple.

elias -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 2 2024 15:05:40)
With the differences being so subtle, why does anyone order a maple blanca rather than cypress? There's got to be a reason.

Manitas de Lata -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 2 2024 15:20:42)
thats a good question. i found myself the same issue when i was lookin for blancas. I think that should be even more bright the sound. another thing , i was thinkin for quite some time on why the And. guitars sound so bright , plastic etc , and i think the answer , or one of more , is that the Scales are in maple..

Ricardo -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 4 2024 20:37:55)
quote: ORIGINAL: elias With the differences being so subtle, why does anyone order a maple blanca rather than cypress? There's got to be a reason. The look is different. Maple looks really cool, cypress and rosewood are “plain” looking guitars. Lawson Cypress has a cool look like maple: Same make: Maple:

Echi -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 5 2024 12:29:25)
The differences I see between cypress and maple are about dampening and weight. I agree with the observations of Ricardo: maple flamenco guitars are midway between cypress and rosewood. The problem I have with soft maple is mainly with the dampening effect (same as Pau ferro) which does something at the note transient: generally speaking it adds a kind of soft touch and slightly less presence at the beginning of the note.

Ricardo -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 6 2024 19:20:43)
quote: ORIGINAL: Echi The differences I see between cypress and maple are about dampening and weight. I agree with the observations of Ricardo: maple flamenco guitars are midway between cypress and rosewood. The problem I have with soft maple is mainly with the dampening effect (same as Pau ferro) which does something at the note transient: generally speaking it adds a kind of soft touch and slightly less presence at the beginning of the note. Yes, I noticed this too, but I only had to compare pau ferro on Hermanos Sanchis lopez, but yes that was the effect. I will say though, the effect seems more from the payer’s perspective, because the recordings come out pretty normal. Everyone wants to purchase my maple sanchis for its tone. I travel with it, to keep my Condes safe. [:D] But truth is, I agree about that soft response thing when I am playing it. The Lawson Cypress (and port orford that Estebana built, which is the same wood apparently but a different cut makes it look different) had the same issue. However, as you can see in the middle video I posted above, when I put La Bella strings (820 red) it behaves a bit more immediately. Unfortunately my Sanchis does not like those 820s, sounds really bad with them. Luthiers sound good, but the soft response remains. My only regret was recording the Live in Fresno album with Jesus Montoya…I did not know it was gonna be recorded. I was accompanying and the guitar is great for chords, but if I had known we were going to record, I would have brought my Conde out there.

Echi -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 6 2024 23:02:58)
Yep. As you say, the public wouldn't notice that thing as much as the player. Eventually I think the main reason for that is the dampening of certain maple. Some woods (like the braz.) are glass like when you tap them with the result of a certain "zing" in the note transient ; Pau ferro (the wood of the Conde used by Paco) has basically the same properties and weight of Brazilian with the difference of a dead sound at the tap (which reveals a certain dampening) which usually brings to the same kind of softness. The Conde of Paco had the same thing to my ears. Anyway that Sanchis sounds nice, particularly in your hands.

Manitas de Lata -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 6 2024 23:30:22)
i think pacos was with "pau santo" do Rio (from Rio Brasil) , very rare nowadays, only old stock if i can recall theres one guy in Sevilha with that wood

Echi -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 7 2024 14:52:43)
If you refer to the main Conde guitar played by Paco, it’s definitely Pau ferro. Once I played for some hours many Sanchis 1F extra guitars made of different woods: the model called “Bulerias” which is made exactly as the others but made with pauferro was clearly distinguishable to my ears as the model made with maple. I for one am more a cypress guy.

Ricardo -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 7 2024 18:27:12)
quote: ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata i think pacos was with "pau santo" do Rio (from Rio Brasil) , very rare nowadays, only old stock if i can recall theres one guy in Sevilha with that wood Pau Ferro: https://www.mundo-flamenco.com/nc/en/box-special.html https://condehermanos.com/en/guitars/year-1975/ Looks a lot like cocobolo. My favorite two guitars paco used were the Indian or Rio negra (never saw clear enough pics) he used for San Francisco tour (also recorded Castro Marin and Solo Quiero Caminar), and his first negra he used for his first album and a few other projects (last seen on the Sevillanas movie with Manolo Sanlucar), probably Indian but again it is so dark I could never see it clear enough if it had figuring. He used to tune it sharp which I think means it was a soft action instrument. His personal favorite guitar was stolen from the car in 1979, I think a 1968 negra either Rio or Madegascar (Felipe conde seems to believe it was Madagascar, and offers a similar instrument as FC28).

Manitas de Lata -> RE: maple or cypress (Jan. 7 2024 21:09:12)
Cedro e Arce Cedar and Arce Sounds strange not very appealing to me , its funny that as time goes im getting more conservative for setups that arent one thing or other , cant really translate the feeling into english.

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