When is it...not Flamenco?? (Full Version)

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larone -> When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 12:02:35)

Hey Crew, i just read Florian post about the good old days, and it got me thinkin....well when does this new flamenco /jazz become non flamenco?? So i'm not having a stab at anyone, i'm just curious. What do you think [8|][8|]
It's an interesting topic, me thinx.
BAH BAH
Larone



Skai -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 12:09:15)

When Juan Martin attempts Bossa Nova, it's a nightmare..



Escribano -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 12:26:18)

quote:

It's an interesting topic, me thinx


... and may produce quite a long thread.

For me, flamenco is a canteor/ora, guitar and palmas, in a small venue like a peña or parlour. I would add jaleos and the sweet smoke of Ducados.



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 13:24:08)

When "the man" u know the man ?? [:D][:)] he put up the borders between flamenco and non flamenco. He and he alone decides how far the guitar can go !!! not the Artist playing the piece , OH NO !! is "the man" does !![:D]

What happens is , the man reviews all the new music than he passes his opinions on to his (special group of belivers) pplle. His pple then go out into the world and spread the ideas around in the clubs and pubs and penas.
This is how a conversation might go : "
Beliver :"- Hey Antonio have you heard this new guitarist Canizares ?"
Antonio:"- Yes hes cool isnt he !"
Beliver: "- Yeah hes allright but I dont know Antonio he bends those notes too much'
Antonio:"- Yes I did notice that too, he does like to bend those notes a litlle"
Beliver:' - And why must i have to check the cover to see what palo hes playing ?"
Antonio:' Yeah that is anoying because if i know that is a farucca before, I will hear the music differently.
.......
After a silence Antonio says: "U know now that i think of it !! I dont like Canizares !! his stuff sucks ! is not flamenco he almost fulled me but thanks to you I saw him for what he really was ! thank you "beliver man".
Beliver :-"Dont thank me, thank "the man " !!

And that is how "the man" works hard day and night to protect us from non flamenco beeing passed as flamenco.

Thank you mr "the man" I love you ![:D][:D][:D][:D]


I think really thats what goes on behind the scenes, is unknown to most pple. [:)]



Ron.M -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 16:41:06)

I guess the man must have whispered that Paco and Tomatito etc are OK [;)]
My taste is with Simon's...I like fairly sparse stuff, just guitar, voice and some palmas on the more up-beat things.
If I had to choose between seeing Tomatito with a full band, Electric Bass with wa-wa pedal and a horn section...or just Tomatito playing with a singer and some great palmeros, then I'd definitely choose the latter.
Without a doubt.

cheers

Ron



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 17:35:14)

quote:

I guess the man must have whispered that Paco and Tomatito etc are OK


Yes the man wispered that they are ok unless ofcourse Tomatito wants to do something with a full band, Electric Bass with wa-wa pedal and a horn section... ...[:D]



gerundino63 -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 19:05:44)

In my oppinion, music has nothing to do with what is flamenco or not, only the rithm.

If an Eskimo who never have heared any music, taps a solea rithm on the ice with his seal - bone - stick, it is flamenco wheather he knows it or not.

Why put ourselves on boundaries?

Peter.



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 19:21:14)

I take it all back, what the hell do I know anyway [:D] everyone likes what they like. and thats it..

theres no right or wrong no need for justification of what one likes and dislikes.


flamenco guitar would be soo boring and predictable if we all liked exactly the same thing.



Ron.M -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 20:42:06)

quote:

theres no right or wrong no need for justification of what one likes and dislikes.


I agree entirely Flo' old chap.

I don't know why, say Robert Johnson sounds more bluesy than, say.. Leo Kottke, but to my ear Robbo just does LOL!

I'm not putting Leo down, I've paid good money in the past to see one of his concerts.
But it just didn't do it for me...

A lot of folk in the audience were cheering and hooting and thought he was the best Acoustic Blues player in America.

(Well it said that in the concert program anyway...so who am I to argue..[:D] )


Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 20:46:46)

It may be that you can sing the same letra over the same two chords for your whole career and be happy with it. I think John Lee Hooker did that... but then some people wouldn't be happy doing that. Luckily there's room for both types in this world. As for what it can no longer be classified as flamenco, that's purely a judgement call. You would have to ask a large cross section of flamencos and let the chips fall where they may. But then again...who qualifies as a flamenco? Probably it's best to avoid the question "When does it stop being flamenco?" I think the guy who asked that knows what sounds like flamenco for him. And that is the answer to his question.



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 11 2005 21:10:24)

"the best, the hottest, the sexiest, the most traditional, the biggest, the latest, the fastest, the purest, the realest, the coolest".

I dont buy into all that **** anymore, the printers will print anything you tell em if you pay em.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 12 2005 3:58:51)

quote:

when does this new flamenco /jazz become non flamenco??



Being from the school of traditional flamenco, I would say that when you have to be told what the palo was that you just heard then it is not flamenco - at least to me!

You can define flamenco anyway you like. To some it is what sells at the moment, while to others it is a way of life. Most people in Spain do not like flamenco – that is the vast majority do not like flamenco. But when Spaniards move to the United States they suddenly seem to like flamenco.

As for the rest of us, well we try to emulate what we think flamenco is. [:)]



Ricardo -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 12 2005 16:08:35)

I think it is 2 things, obviously, different for each individual.

1.)knowledge
2.)taste

There are lots of aficionados who think they know what is more or less "flamenco" about an artist/performance/recording, etc, they know how to "distinguish" all the palos, know the history of Gypsy Cante, etc, but they can't even do palmas. Then there are true masters of the art who don't really know the history of the gypsies, or the geneology of every cante. In the end there are 2 types of art, 1) to entertain people, and 2)for the artist to express himself.

If YOU don't find Canizares "flamenco" enough, then it is not. If I find it to be great flamenco, then it is. Simple. What Florian says is true, if some one that seems to have more knowleadge imposes his own taste onto others newer to it, then the "opinion" spreads. It has happened to me before, but luckily I was able to form my own tastes as I acquired more knowleadge.

"Diego del Gastor plays like a beginner...", "Nunez is all technique..." , "Paco is now a jazz guitarist...", "Juan Martin is not even Spanish...", "Moraito is the best accompanist...", "Gypsy kings can't play flamenco...", "Camaron is the greatest singer in history...", etc. Just keep an open mind.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 12 2005 20:31:17)

Hi Ricardo,
Keeping an open mind is great and very admirable.
But what of the folks who throw the legacies of Flamenco to the wind and "integrate" a smattering of Flamenco style into their own music?
My own pet theory here is this...
1. Person hears Flamenco for the first time and thinks "Hey..that is some really cool stuff...I wonder how he gets those effects?"
2. Person investigates further and finds some Albums of stuff which he loves and tries to learn same, thinking "I'll just learn the basic beat and a few chord changes... shouldn't be that much work..."
3. Person gets really involved, and spends most of his time on Flamenco technique and listening to same, thinking "This **** is more involved than I thought!"
4. Person after 5 years and still sounding like ****, say's "Man, this stuff is too hard... I'll just integrate what I've learned so far into my own Rock/Blues/Tamla/Bossa stuff.
5. Person appears on stage as a "Flamenco guitarist".

cheers

Ron



Mark2 -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 12 2005 22:26:37)

That's funny Ron. That's why the acid test will always be playing for singers, and to a slightly lessor extent, dancers-it can't be faked. Not to dis-respect solo players who can really do it, but solo playing can be faked, as your post points out.



larone -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 12 2005 23:24:45)

BINGO[;)][;)]



ToddK -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 13 2005 0:37:09)

Anything can be faked, if the audience doesnt understand
what they'r watching.



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 13 2005 2:07:33)

quote:

4. Person after 5 years and still sounding like ****, say's "Man, this stuff is too hard... I'll just integrate what I've learned so far into my own Rock/Blues/Tamla/Bossa stuff.
5. Person appears on stage as a "Flamenco guitarist".


..... so what ? where do you think that alot of the flamenco guitar ideas come from originaly ? [:D] it took alot from classical it took a bitt from here a bit from there and voila.
All you have done is named the foundation of how the flamenco technique came about.
Someone changing alot of the classical guitar technique to adapt it for flamenco.
U are fighting and arguing to keep something pure whos very existance and develompent is thanks to the fact that it was unpure and borowed from here and there to make it what it is today. Dare to look behind the obvious :-)

Whats more real to your opinionation, someone sitting at home by the cd player playing a Sabicas falseta over and over and over and copying the sound perfectly (woo woopy , youre a parrot) or someone actually trying to develop his knolodge trying to change the Sabicas falseta to his technique, taste etc.

quote from Thomas W. web..
quote:

Actual Flamenco frequently shows influences of other kinds of music, as Jazz, Salsa, Bossa Nova, etc


to be honest I am envious, i kind of wish I had some knolodge about Rock/Blues/Tamla/Bossa/jazz stuff, all I have ever playied is flamenco, it couldnt hurt, it could only make you a better guitarist, not to mention develop you compositional skills.



Ron.M -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 14 2005 20:37:44)

quote:

Anything can be faked


Todd...If I could do a great fake of Tomatito or Paco, then I reckon I could live with the crap I'd get! [:D][:D]

cheers amigo,

Ron



Ron.M -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 14 2005 20:48:37)

quote:

That's why the acid test will always be playing for singers, and to a slightly lessor extent, dancers


Yeah Mark...but that's impossible for a lot of Flamenco guitar enthusiasts around the world.
So in a way I don't think that's a fair benchmark for most amateurs who frequent the flamenco forums.
I think that (especially in solo style) one can, with a lot of work, acquire enough knowledge and technique to play a perfectly respectable and competent piece of music which would be judged as good by anyone from the flamenco community, even in Andalucia.

cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 14 2005 22:16:16)

Ron,
what does fair have to do with it? None of this talk about real or not real, or the ridiculous "puro" talk, is fair. It seems that people always want to place things into categories, usually as a way to justify their own taste or aggrandize their particular style or abilities.



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 2:34:13)

Well said Miguel



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 10:05:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
None of this talk about real or not real, or the ridiculous "puro" talk, is fair. It seems that people always want to place things into categories, usually as a way to justify their own taste or aggrandize their particular style or abilities.


Hmmm well I beg to differ , flamenco 'puro' needs all the help and respect it can get which is why talking about it and defining it should never be dismissed as ridiculous, at least not by aficionados and it pains me to see such a thing writen on this forum. Defining puro flamenco is not a matter of taste it is a matter of respect to the art and tha artists.

Kate



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 10:09:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

That's why the acid test will always be playing for singers, and to a slightly lessor extent, dancers


...but that's impossible for a lot of Flamenco guitar enthusiasts around the world.




Yes which is why it was so totally unbelieveable that Webster, author of Duende, claimed to learn to play flamenco guitar, accompany and join a professional flamenco oufit in a matter of months, and all why he was living in Valencia. At some point they will have to move that book from the Autobiography to the Fiction section.

Kate



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 11:37:42)

quote:

Defining puro flamenco is not a matter of taste it is a matter of respect to the art and tha artists.


Thats just the thing Kate, by defining Puro flamenco (witch means different things to different pple) we are alowing artists like :Paco, Emilio Maya, Canizares, Tomatito and his full band of Electric Bass with wa-wa pedal and a horn section the freedom to express themselfs how they see fit without puting limitations on it.

Paco has been rewriting the Hand manual for flamenco guitar for decaides now, why does it have to stop with him ?



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 12:19:20)

Maybe i have not got your point here. Are we agreeing ? I'm not so sure that Puro Flamenco means different things to different people, at least not to the flamencos I know, they all seem to know precisely what is Puro. They certainly do not need to define it, as they know it already inside and out. Jose Merce knows the difference between his puro flamenco albums and his flamenquito pop albums. Defining flamenco puro does not place limits on flamenco artists who wish to commercialise or experiment with other styles or to any artist who wishes to incorporate flamenco influences.

Kate



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 12:51:19)

quote:

Maybe i have not got your point here. Are we agreeing ?


Mybe not :-). And I am not sure but i dont think so :-)


Well all the flamencos you know must be different to all the flamencos i know including this ones here on the forum as you can see for yourself we all have different opinions of what flamenco is and where it stops beeing flamenco.



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 14:39:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
Well all the flamencos you know must be different to all the flamencos i know including this ones here on the forum as you can see for yourself we all have different opinions of what flamenco is and where it stops beeing flamenco.


je je je I'm sure the flamencos I know are different, perhaps we need to define what we mean by 'flamencos' and with no offense to the guitarists here on the forum I would call them guitarists who play flamenco and the people I refer to as flamencos are usually, but not necessarily, professionals brought up in the culture who live and breathe flamenco. They would not even entertain a discussion of OdB, for example, being flamenco, in fact they rarely sit around discussing flamenco as such. In the studio it is a different matter and there are many discussions of the puro way of playing or singing whatever palo. I have often heard the artists debating in the minutest detail what makes something 'puro' even down to the delivery. And for the record these are not discussions that I would dream of entering into with them so perhaps I should keep the same policy here. But I do know that Puro Flamenco can and perhaps should be defined by those with the experience to do so, so that it is not lost or dismissed among the experimental and commercial.

kate



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 14:48:58)

Well Kate :-)

I live and breathe flamenco, i practice 8 hours a day atlist, play for classes , shows, listen to it everysingle day and no offence to you but writing about it or beeing a spectator of it does not make you more of an expert on the subject then either me or alot of other pple here :-).

Unless you think that real flamenco only happens in Spain ?



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 15 2005 16:03:31)

No offence taken and hope I did not offend you. I've never claimed to be an expert and never will, the more I learn the more the less I know. But having had two grammy nominated and many other award winning flamenco albums recorded here in our studio and worked for many years for various flamenco artists, touring Europe and America, feel I am qualified to join in discussions and at least post comments giving my opinion based on my that experience. Particularly my experience in the flamenco and Gypsy culture has helped my understanding/appreciation of the art and my work gives me an insight into the problems and the importance of defining flamenco in todays market.

I remember many years back raving on a forum about a young Granadino singer who sang flamenco puro. I was told that his age made this impossible ( never mind the fact he was from Granada) as the young did not sing flamenco puro and my limited experience meant that I would not be able to differentiate. I was not offended as I felt they were right but am happy to report this young singer is now being recognised and is being hailed as a saviour of flamenco puro, a dying art which desperately needs the support of new generations. I had to smile when I was contacted because the President of a very important Peña wanted to hear him.

Look forward to seeing you out here in Granada some time and we can chew the fat ( literally with Jamon) over a copa.

Kate



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