RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Full Version)

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Thomas Whiteley -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 0:02:50)

quote:

I'm not so sure that Puro Flamenco means different things to different people, at least not to the flamencos I know, they all seem to know precisely what is Puro.


Kate;

What is flamenco puro? Ask a Gitano who is trained in flamenco. It either is or is not flamenco. It is a heartbeat. It is emotional. It touches your soul. The combination of cante, baile and guitar is what I prefer, with palmas. I live in the past but I enjoy myself! [:D]



duende -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 7:24:25)

quote:

quote:

It's an evocation, a lifestyle, aspirations, hopes, dreams, love, loss, death. The song of the disposessed. It's romance, dammit! Oh, and compás. .



Sí,
.....and the Evil Thumb!

Ron


Hell yeaaa!!![:D][:D][:D]



larone -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 8:01:51)

WELL.......didn't i open up a huge can of worms with this discussion.......So, When is it....NOT a huge can of worms?!?!?!?

quote:

After I make love to a girl I find myself tapping buleria rythm on her naked ass


I'm gonna pee myself over that for quite a while. [:)][:)][:D][:D]
Maybe you've just given us a new idea for percussion in the flamenco scene. It would certainly get a few more people to the show. (food for thought) [:)]
Stay cool
Larone



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 8:25:28)

quote:

The thing is that I seem to hear bigger "olés" from a crowd (and fellow performers) when a guitarist suddenly plays a "primitive" falseta that makes everybody smile and cheer.
Why?



the same reason why when you see a 80 year old man dancing u think " Ohh how cute hes still at it, good on your grandpa !!"


just kidding , i tell you why for real because pple LOve ! to hear familiar stuff, they love melodies they allready know ! they love to hum and know how it goes.



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 8:38:44)

quote:

After I make love to a girl I find myself tapping buleria rythm on her naked ass


then I pay her and say good night [:D][:D] hehe


Thats a good idea about using it in a show, ofcourse you would need to find one with a bum big enough so that even the last row of seats can see, and secondly the bum has to be in tune and in the right key.

I would need to be on this for a long time [:D][:D][:D], auditioning, rehersing, working out choreographies that better show the beauty of this instrument.

then ofcourse theres the problem of where to position the microphone because as we all know theres no soundhole [8|]



el ted -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 9:32:18)

Good morning from sunny Hull,
Have a look at this website, and be amazed!!!! - www.flametal.com



Florian -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 10:31:40)

Hehe I like it , the electric and voice is a bitt loud for my taste but it sounds like fun if anything else :-)

Is different, way different !! but is not bad i love the bitt that starts at 03:04 on THE ELDER to 03:15 is very catchy. I am not sure what this cd is but whatever it is , is original and fun to listen too :-)

I was wondering where Benjamin desapeared to.



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 15:02:29)

Hi Ricardo,

Just to explain what I was referring to in my post. The thread started off about 'flamenco or not' and then 'flamenco puro' entered the equation and I jumped in ( yes like a cat among the pigeons) when Miguel said it was ridiculous to try and define Flamenco puro, and I replied I thought it was a necessary distinction. This is from my perspective as a manager/agent not a guitarist.

So my first comment you quote was saying it was necessary to define ' flamenco puro'. The second quote was talking about how flamenco artists in the studio when recording 'flamenco puro' take great pains to get every aspect right. I'm not sure what the contradicition was. I dont claim to understand this but my conclusion has been that we should respect this aspect of flamenco and not dismiss 'Puro' as old stuff, it still exists and if anything it is even more relevant today when groups like OdB claim ' flamenco is dead' while claiming they are now flamenco.

Just like Paco said, it is possible to compose new flamenco puro. For example Emilio on his album had composed amost all of the tracks and his focus was on keeping it Puro, and yes he had bass and cajon on there but the consenus was that it was still puro.

As you quite rightly say, flamenco is meant to change, it is spontaneaous, of the moment, adapted to each player, singer or performance.

My definition of 'puro' would be the source, the heartbeat, the soul of flamenco. Its roots but also its blossoms and seeds.

That does not make it more or less than any other flamenco style, modern, jazz, pop, but it does mean it should be cherished and recognised and not dismissed.

I think among the flamencologists there has been a general consensus that Flamenco puro is being lost as the older singers go to the great juerga in the sky and the young have their eye on bigger rewards than paying their dues in Peñas. Foreign promotors want flamenco with a modern twist, lots of rythmn and little cante, less Gypsy and more ballet. Luckily I can be quite persuasive about the delights of a 'puro' performance and manage to persuade the promoters to take the risk on flamenco artists who may not have big names, big stage shows and massive record sales.

I enjoy all flamenco, it is a very wide church after all, and just because we refer to 'puro flamenco' does not mean that the rest of flamenco is somehow dirty, or debased.

Kate



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? A SPECIAL OFFER FOR FLORIAN (Sep. 16 2005 15:14:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

I couldnt possibly accept that Simon first of all id have to wait till Kate forghets about this so that i dont get a slap as soon as i get off the plane..



Je je Florian, now I would never do that my friend. And dont worry about getting something for nothing, if you took up Simon's offer he would work you quite hard ;) painting his house, walking the dog, guitar practice, shopping, cooking.

You sure sound like a dedicated flamenco to me. So dont take it personally when discussing 'puro' it is the music not the performer, and while I jumped into to proclaim the importance of flamenco 'puro' I would have no idea how to define what makes one version of cante or guitar accompaniement 'puro' or not. I just hear the flamencos doing it.

Kate



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 15:15:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Wow!,
Trust Kate to throw a log on the burning embers!! [:D][:D][:D]



That's me, just cant keep out of trouble [&:]

Kate



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 16:02:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas Whiteley
What is flamenco puro? Ask a Gitano who is trained in flamenco. It either is or is not flamenco.


That's my policy, when in doubt ask some-one who knows. I love hearing them discussing the various aspects of the palos and why an aspect of playing may or may not be 'puro'. My friend Victor the singer has an amazing knowledge of the palos and their history and development. The other day I was at a lecture given by Mario Maya at the Peña where Victor sang to show the singing styles Mario was referring to, from the Concurso de Cante Jondo 1922. He brought the old songs alive for me.

Kate



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 16:15:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Kate,
I can understand how all the people in your community would agree on the style of music they have grown up loving and performing. It seems to me that when they say "puro" they are talking about a specific way of performing the music which is open to gypsies and people who were born in Granada (or Jerez, or whatever). Those who are from this area and follow the traditions are puro. Anyone else is a pretender.


HI Mike,

Sorry but mine was not a racist comment, I was not saying that anyone who is not Spanish/Gypsy is a pretender and cannot play 'puro' I have met many players from outside of Spain : France, the US, UK, Russia who play 'puro' flamenco.

I was simply saying that it is important to acknowledge that Flamenco Puro exists and, as you rightly say, not be pushed out and left by the wayside by people who have moved on to develop flamenco in other directions. That would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Unfortunately Flamenco Puro does suffer from being labelled old, out of date, irrelevant and I think that is not only a shame but a great loss.

Initially I reacted to your comment that discussing flamenco puro was ridiculous. But hey look at the thread, its been a good discussion.

Kate



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 16:20:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

those who decry its commercialization don't seem to know or acknowledge that the professionals have created most of its features.



The problem in Spain is the reverse, it is not the aficionados of Puro flamenco who decry the commercialization of flamenco, but those who have commercialized flamenco frequently condemn flamenco puro as old and irrelevent.

Kate



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 16:27:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
I don't like the new forms of flamenco half as much as older stuff, but I wouldn't insult the artists of a livign art for their experimentations and innovations by telling them that their art is not pure.


This is the problem as this what happens whenever one talks about 'flamenco puro', ie the people who prefer or play a more modern, innovative or jazz flamenco, for example, start getting insulted. No-one suggested that flamenco puro was somehow above or better than any other sort, or that if you were not a 'puro' player you were somehow less of a player.

Kate



Kate -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 16 2005 16:36:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Disagreement aside, surely you know that I applaud your work in this area and hope you can continue it as long as you wish.


I apreciate that Miguel, and enjoy the discussion. We also hope to continue recording flamenco not just puro but it is the 'puro' that needs the most support as it is being overshadowed totally by the more commercial flamenco and it is almost impossible to get the recordings distributed and out in the market place. I've spent the last year talking with record companies, distributors and artists who feel totally compromised by them. The bottom line is if it aint commercial then no deal.

Kate



larone -> RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (Sep. 19 2005 12:44:45)

I may need to come and crash on your couch while these auditions are going ahead. It sounds like a big job. You'll need the help![:D][:D]
Larone



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