RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Full Version)

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Richard Jernigan -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 3 2012 12:36:05)

I was in Spain in May, 2007. I attended two flamenco performances. The first was in Madrid at a very reputable restaurant/club. The dancers were energetic anid competent, the guitarists somewhat in the "modern" mode, and the singer pretty good. He sang one fairly jondo palo that I liked (I forget which one now), the rest was accompanying dancing.

We attended another performance in Ronda, in the basement of the museum in la Ciudad, near the end of the Puente Nuevo. It was traditional, well done. I enjoyed both performances, but mainly because my traveling companion, a non-aficionado definitely enjoyed them.

We were in Jerez in late May, 2007. The seemingly knowledgeable concierge at our nice hotel assured me that all the peñas were closed for the summer. I wondered whether she really knew, and also whether her response might have been conditioned by the supposition that we foreigners wouldn't like just a singer and a gitarist, without any stomping or sweating.

We had lots of fun with other activities.

I just returned to the USA from a six-week trip to Europe, ten days of it in Andalucia. I had hoped to meet up with some foro members, some living in Andalucia, and profit from their local knowledge, but our schedules didn't mesh, except for Estevan and his charming wife Desiree, who were staying in a tiny village in the Alpujarras, literally at the end of the road. Not even a cafe there, much less flamenco performances.

I didn't attend a single flamenco performance while I was in Andalucia. Several times I walked by a place advertising flamenco, stopped to listen through a door or window, and walked on, not attracted by what I heard. In Sevilla my hotel was in Triana. I fell into conversation with a talkative cab driver on the way to photograph the Alcazar. When flamenco came up, I said I preferred the cante. He sang the praises, at some length, of a place within walking distance of my hotel. When I mentioned in another casual conversation with a Triana resident that I might go, he said, "Oh, yes, they perform the true flamenco. Lots of sevillanas!"

I made other plans.

RNJ




fingerstyle -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 3 2012 14:43:26)

I take back my previous post to a degree - this thread is actually REALLY interesting for a newbie. It's nice to see where these things are coming from and why people feel so strongly about true Flamenco music.

I'm not ashamed to say that I doubt I have any experience of Flamenco in its 'pure' form, instead being attracted to it by the so-called 'fakemenco' or 'flamingo' styles; but from the sound of some of these posts, I'm looking forward to finding it!




Ricardo -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 3 2012 15:14:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

But as i dont understand the lyrics they only move me 1% of how other singing styles move me.

Now here you have a good point. And in general, the worst lyrics you find in Fandangos de Huelva.

I dont think Cante Jondo is disappearing. There´ll always be some nerds around and besides, on competition level, thats what counts the most. But generally speaking amongst the passive listener and the average "I want to learn to sing a bit of flamenco", Cante Jondo is not doing very well...


Many singers have personal styles, and even fandangos can be quite heavy duty...Paco Toronjo??? Bulerias have evolved from a light fun party music into a very sophisticated and jondo form IMO. Both the intensity of the rhythmic drive coupled with modern lyrics have evolved buleria IMO into a jondo form on par with other styles such as solea or siguiriyas. In fact, the "light" or "chico" concept of flamenco need not apply as a generalization when we take into account specific performers. Since camaron I would say calling bulerias "festero" is too simplistic a view.

Solea and Siguirya have not evolved new styles and the classics are still the only interpretations I hear now a days, although a limited number of styles compared to old days. I blame the baile for that, boxing in and structuring the compas in ways where other interpretions either dont' work, or singers are told wrongly they sing out of compas.

As far as commercialization of flamenco pop, obviously rumba as a form is the culprit as it works more internationally...singers in rito as old as Pepe de la Matrona were already complaing about it, as were Melchor and others. I dont' think that anything really has changed in that sense, rather Camaron influenced too many singers and the baile structured the heavy cante as I discussed above. That's why newer and newer generations are loosing roots IMO, not only because of the attractiveness of Pop flamenco.

Ricardo




akatune -> [Deleted] (Jul. 3 2012 15:52:43)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 4 2013 2:11:46




Anders Eliasson -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 3 2012 17:48:22)

Ricardo

I agree that a good bulerias and some good tientos tangos can be very deep and i realy enjoy when they are so.
But what I was talking about is when new singers only want to sing light palos and are not interested in the original flamenco palos and at the same time wont listen and wont work with older recordings.




Rmn -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 3 2012 19:22:48)

quote:

I was in Spain in May, 2007. I attended two flamenco performances. The first was in Madrid at a very reputable restaurant/club. The dancers were energetic anid competent, the guitarists somewhat in the "modern" mode, and the singer pretty good. He sang one fairly jondo palo that I liked (I forget which one now), the rest was accompanying dancing.

We attended another performance in Ronda, in the basement of the museum in la Ciudad, near the end of the Puente Nuevo. It was traditional, well done. I enjoyed both performances, but mainly because my traveling companion, a non-aficionado definitely enjoyed them.

We were in Jerez in late May, 2007. The seemingly knowledgeable concierge at our nice hotel assured me that all the peñas were closed for the summer. I wondered whether she really knew, and also whether her response might have been conditioned by the supposition that we foreigners wouldn't like just a singer and a gitarist, without any stomping or sweating.

We had lots of fun with other activities.

I just returned to the USA from a six-week trip to Europe, ten days of it in Andalucia. I had hoped to meet up with some foro members, some living in Andalucia, and profit from their local knowledge, but our schedules didn't mesh, except for Estevan and his charming wife Desiree, who were staying in a tiny village in the Alpujarras, literally at the end of the road. Not even a cafe there, much less flamenco performances.

I didn't attend a single flamenco performance while I was in Andalucia. Several times I walked by a place advertising flamenco, stopped to listen through a door or window, and walked on, not attracted by what I heard. In Sevilla my hotel was in Triana. I fell into conversation with a talkative cab driver on the way to photograph the Alcazar. When flamenco came up, I said I preferred the cante. He sang the praises, at some length, of a place within walking distance of my hotel. When I mentioned in another casual conversation with a Triana resident that I might go, he said, "Oh, yes, they perform the true flamenco. Lots of sevillanas!"

I made other plans.

RNJ


you really should have emailed me when you were in sevilla. there are very good flamenco concerts every day. but its all spread through sms, mail and facebook in between the the people that are in the flamenco scene. very very potential young artists play here every day in lots of places. 5 euros for a concert is usually a good indication here that its going to be good.




Ricardo -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 4 2012 16:23:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Ricardo

I agree that a good bulerias and some good tientos tangos can be very deep and i realy enjoy when they are so.
But what I was talking about is when new singers only want to sing light palos and are not interested in the original flamenco palos and at the same time wont listen and wont work with older recordings.


Part of the problem is to really do the old styles it must be taught orally not only studied from recording because the improvisational elements will be lost if only recordings are copied. Next the old recordings are so low quality it's hard to get inspired. And third, they are harder to sing or get a handle on technique wise and need to be learned very early age IMO. Young kids in spain probably don't get inspired by cante until they are older...too old to be great like the old masters. finally, as I said, it's confusing when you are told by a master of baile and given a chance to sing what you have learned and told it doesn't work or fit with the dance. Then you learn to structure the form and melody, and the essence of the original is lost. IMO.

quote:

I can't believe it gets this serious. People, this is an internet forum. How can anyone get so wrapped up .... in an internet forum.

Not sure of your involvment in the professional world of Flamenco, but all the arguments I have seen on foro are pretty tame compared to real life issues that go on in small clickish communities of pro and amature flamencos.




Rmn -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 4 2012 23:14:27)

when is the website going to be up?? I'm looking forward




Kevin -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 5 2012 0:11:44)

quote:

when is the website going to be up?? I'm looking forward


I hoped this week but it may take another two just to get a few basic lessons up. I am working with the designer and I also am creating PDFs and VID.

Lessons have changed a bit according to the first post but overall scheme is similar.
1) Scales/Modes/Basic Chords in 5 key families (F-A-C, C-G-E). These cover all the keys related to por medio and por arriba in la and mi positions. (Learn your fretboard first).
2) Constructing chords: From two different perspectives, the classical and jazz.
3) Expansion of basic chords in 3 systems with emphasis on the Andalusian cadence in the above five keys.

4) Form of Cante. This is geared towards those who do not have community or practice materials and can benefit from an analytical approach. THIS IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR GOING TO SPAIN OR OTHERWISE EXPERIENCING FLAMENCO. It is simply a way to prepare yourself so that when opportunity arises, you can make the most of it.

Also preparing a lesson on rhythm/cadence/llamada/remate.

DON'T FORGET THE TRANSCRPTION SERVICE.

See whoever is interested soon.




Rmn -> RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (Jul. 6 2012 8:02:16)

sounds good kevin. good job! : )




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