online lessons; what's missing? (Full Version)

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ToddK -> online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 8:25:59)

Just wondering , those of you that have an interest in, or are taking
online lessons;

What are your likes and dislikes? Are there elements you wish there was
more focus on? If so, which aspects?

What would you like to see covered that you can't currently find?

Reason i ask is, I'm thinking about starting a new site, but there are so many
good ones already out there. So i'm trying to think of new angles on
video lessons.

Hope to get into some good discussions about this subject.

TK



Pawo -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 9:25:54)

I've used a few online sites ...here's a few things I think are important

Different camera angles to see technique up close.

Compass, technique and falsetta lessons broken down into shorter sections or
something like that so you don't have to wade through lengthy videos to find specific points.

Tabs AND notation to download....the choice is good to have if possible.


In general like most learning resources these days seem to do, I think a mulit media approach with small chunks of information rather than lengthy discourses etc is as good way forward.

Cheers



z6 -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 9:43:45)

Sorry if this is a double post... not sure if I lost it or not.

The angle I'd most like to see is lessons for ipad/iphone.

The format is perfect for the kind of chunking that can be used in flamenco.

The online format requires too much farting around for me. But I'd pay, and keep on paying, for little lessons that I could keep forever and use in hotels, on the train etc.

I think there are inherent problems with the online formats, in terms of the payment structures and time investments required.

This may not be what you were asking but I'd venture that the potential market is huge for such a thing.

I already put this to Jason McGuire when I bought his superb Dr. Compas.

There are almost no tools for non-programmers (yet) to build the kind of simple app required for such a thing. But there are websites out there where people will put the stuff together for you. And easier tools will almost certainly become available in time. Apple has such a tool already but it's used for advertisers. (It can handle video and the kind of simple navigation such a thing would require.)

It would mean that, instead of paying large amounts for lessons or DVDs one could buy a falsetta or compas lesson, for example, for a few dollars and build on that.

Again, apologies if you only wanted hear about specific technical issues but I would love to be able to build an app library that I can access any time I wish. And contributers would be able to fire out things as demand arose.

Maybe this is off your track but I am sure someone will do it some time and there is big money out there for the people that get it right. (Yes, dealing with apple is a hassle but the distribution potential is beyond belief.)

Maybe you guys could even get together to form something that you could then chop up existing materials for? I don't think there has ever been a better vehicle for teaching flamenco, and for users to organize their materials.

Anyway, my two cents.



Munin -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 10:02:26)

I don't think there's any more need for simple "falseta" lessons...there's tons of material there now, more than anyone could ever learn in a lifetime.

The big gaps are the things you can't learn unless you're in Spain or luckily involved in local scenes: Accompaniment, ways of playing compas, "theory" (as far as that is applicable in flamenco) etc.



El Kiko -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 10:15:46)

Online lessons are a lot to think about ...unless they are one to one skype things

Its difficult to please all of the people all of the time

You would need a good base of videos just to get started and then start using the feed back from students .....maybe a particular problem with something may occur so a new vid would be created to solve the problem , hopefully , for every one that may wonder about that....

I suppose a good thing would be instead of giving out falsetas and that would be to try to give them the tools to make their own stuff.....

Also people get a bit fed up with just falsetas and after study may want complete pieces ....to play for others maybe ...........
I know I try to learn complete pieces .......

Anyway you go to say... Flamenco Teacher .com ........see their lessons and have a look at SOLO PIECES ...none .....not one .........and its been like that for ever ........and yet its the one part of the site that would get a lot of movement .......


Strangly enough I was thinking of putting some pieces on here for beginners but in sections and joined up you would get the whole thing ...go out and play it .....
Stilll thinking about that ...time is my enemy though..

My 3 cents.....( Inflation)....
[:-]



rombsix -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 12:09:57)

Flamenco guitar hybrid technique (using a plectrum and the middle, ring, and pinky fingers). [8D]



Don Dionisio -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 13:54:14)

Todd,
I've been trying to get the flamenco-teacher folks to put some more videos
up. Is there anyway you could do some more lessons through their site
and work out the commissions, etc.?
Just an idea.



Ricardo -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 14:41:52)

quote:

Anyway you go to say... Flamenco Teacher .com ........see their lessons and have a look at SOLO PIECES ...none .....not one .........and its been like that for ever ........and yet its the one part of the site that would get a lot of movement ......


Well, this issue came up much in the past. I understand the attraction to "solo pieces" in flamenco. Marketing wise a great idea. Flamenco Teacher always wanted to do it, but it due to copywrite issues we avoid doing anything but original music that is more than a single falseta in length (fair use for educational purpose). Problem is, I am the main teacher, and I don't compose what would be considered "beginner intermediate" music honestly. Further, as a teacher I can't in good conscience give the impression that I am all for students learning "pieces", even if it is a popular and lucrative idea. The best idea we had was to make my rumba a lesson, as many people have ordered my transcription and been able to learn that piece.

But as things turned out over the years the project never panned out both myself and the site owner became very busy with other projects and personal issues. Im much more busy simply giving skype classes to be honest, much much more efficient way to convey knowledge and more lucrative as well. I have had students purchase transcriptions from my site and want to work on the compositions as solos which is fine, of course I always make it clear that flamenco guitar foundations need to be build on compas/falseta improvisations. Students already advanced enough to tackly my pieces already understand this concept in most cases.

Ricardo



ToddK -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 16:06:32)

Thanks so much for the thoughts everybody. I really appreciate it.


I particularly like the ideas mentioned about compas variations, theory ,
and covering smaller, shorter sections of falsetas with more detail, possibly
getting deeper into the musicality aspect as much as technique.

Also like the idea of better camera angles to help see more detail.

Thanks again for your thoughts everyone.
TK



athrane77 -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 16:12:45)

The only thing i can say, make some more videos like the explanation of the el tuto falseta. was simply great. first fast than really slow. with a nice feel of compás.
i'd pay for more stuff like this.



n85ae -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 17:02:59)

My opinion what is lacking, and I've been looking for years.

How to play various compas for extended periods of time, while
keeping it interesting. There is WAY too much falseta's in lessons, and not
near enough how to sit in the back and hold the groove. If there is any
compas in lessons now it's almost always just a couple cycles MAX, and
then falseta's.

Consequently you can learn falseta's but not how to play basic flamenco
properly

Regards,
Jeff



ToddK -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 17:13:13)

quote:

How to play various compas for extended periods of time, while
keeping it interesting. There is WAY too much falseta's in lessons, and not
near enough how to sit in the back and hold the groove. If there is any
compas in lessons now it's almost always just a couple cycles MAX, and
then falseta's.

Consequently you can learn falseta's but not how to play basic flamenco
properly


Excellent point. I totally agree! Thank you.
TK



ToddK -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 17:17:55)

quote:

The only thing i can say, make some more videos like the explanation of the el tuto falseta. was simply great. first fast than really slow. with a nice feel of compás.
i'd pay for more stuff like this.


Absolutely keeping that in mind! Thanks![:)]

TK



Don Dionisio -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 17:30:28)

I agree with many of the suggestions. I'm all about
technique, more ideas for picado, different rasgueados,
how to apply what you already know, and perhaps
the thing I see so often what chords should I
play here or there....
I hope you can make something happen.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 17:31:34)

Hey Todd,
personally, my biggest interest is the nuts and bolts of practicing. There is a lot of information out there, falsetas, pieces, patterns, etc., but not a great deal of explanation of how to turn that information into a useful skill. Ricardo's vid about how to learn a falseta in 8 min. was an example of what interests me. It seems to me that the good players have a knack for figuring out what they have to do to master material while the "eternal intermediate" player never does.

What about a few vids that show you actually setting up mics for a live show, and you talking about your thought process and what you are looking at while you do it? Or showing you going through the process while recording a falseta (to show the thought process of setting up mics, mixing, eq, etc)?



ToddK -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 17:58:20)

quote:

personally, my biggest interest is the nuts and bolts of practicing. There is a lot of information out there, falsetas, pieces, patterns, etc., but not a great deal of explanation of how to turn that information into a useful skill. Ricardo's vid about how to learn a falseta in 8 min. was an example of what interests me. It seems to me that the good players have a knack for figuring out what they have to do to master material while the "eternal intermediate" player never does.

What about a few vids that show you actually setting up mics for a live show, and you talking about your thought process and what you are looking at while you do it? Or showing you going through the process while recording a falseta (to show the thought process of setting up mics, mixing, eq, etc)?


Wow Miguel, those are some great ideas. I have thought about these things in the back of my mind.
The tough thing for me will be the pace of the videos. Video
segments for subjects like this would need to be very thought out. (as
opposed to turning on the camera and "ok, it goes like this"

I would want them to be super clear and concise. I see so many videos with
promising concepts but the narrator meanders on and on and on, and you hit stop cause you're not learning anything.
I want to try to make it all meat, no filler. :) Just from the posts so far, i am
really starting to see some new angles on this.

Thanks Miguel, i really appreciate your thoughts, you really inspired me.
TK



tri7/5 -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 18:02:23)

I think the ideas listed here have been great. I also think a fundamental theory approach to flamenco would be interesting. Just like jazz has the melodic minor (jazz minor) and II V I's which you basically have to know to play jazz, what is the theoretical foundation that makes flamenco... flamenco? I've not been to every lesson site out there but most of what I see are just snippets of scale/picado runs and chord progressions with little explanation.



rombsix -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 18:05:36)

Man, seriously. Consider doing bits about teaching your hybrid technique. It's quite controversial, I'm sure, but you would 100% be the first person on Earth to do this. I am sure you will stand out.

In the end - you're a great flamenco guitarist and all that, but Jason, Tanaka, Pedro Cortes, etc. are all great too. More camera angles are nice, but I don't know if they will make your website the "go-to-place" because it has something nobody else has. The bit about audio recording too is great, but that will target a narrow audience maybe. And theory - I don't know how many people who want to learn from online videos will be interested in going deep in that regard.

This is all just my opinion though, and you / others might consider it not very valid. But that is what I've gotten to understand over the years. Because I was the first person on the internet to make video tutorials of ARABIC pop songs (which are 99% nowhere to be found on the internet unlike English pop, etc.), I got a lot of hits. And I don't do this full-time or with very high quality.

Cheers my friend!



Ron.M -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 18:11:20)

quote:

you would 100% be the first person on Earth to do this. I am sure you will stand out.


I too think Todd should have stuck with his hybrid technique as well!

It was amazing and fascinating, unique, controversial and sounded brilliant!

Now Todd has joined the club of many and has to get in line with the rest....

Think he made a big mistake bowing to peer pressure IMO...


cheers,

Ron



ToddK -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 18:16:45)

quote:

I think the ideas listed here have been great. I also think a fundamental theory approach to flamenco would be interesting. Just like jazz has the melodic minor (jazz minor) and II V I's which you basically have to know to play jazz, what is the theoretical foundation that makes flamenco... flamenco? I've not been to every lesson site out there but most of what I see are just snippets of scale/picado runs and chord progressions with little explanation.


Very good idea. Flamenco harmony is alot less, for lack of a better word at the moment, predictable than
jazz harmony in my opinion. Its hard to nail it all the way down. Thats the compelling thing about flamenco harmony. Alot of times, it seems like anything goes and that its more about the presentation and execution that makes it sound "Flamenco".
So that would be a challenge, but it would make for some great lessons.

Great thoughts, thank you!!
TK



Florian -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 19:51:44)

quote:

Now Todd has joined the club of many and has to get in line with the rest....

Think he made a big mistake bowing to peer pressure


I respectfully disagree, the technique is just a tool...i am sure he wouldn't want people to have been fascinated by his music because of it or have other people dismiss its genuine flamenco validity because of it...and have that as the one thing that set him apart, kind of like a novelty, not in his case not with what he has to offer in a way of music imo...now at least he never has to worry about that ****...just the music....even if i am completely wrong and absolutely everyone else in the world would have not even mention the pick...at least now he never even has to think about or worry about that type of thing...playing wise i cant hear the difference between the pick and no pick

and in this case, for lessons...who who was serious about wanting to learn flamenco guitar the traditional way, and wanted to one day pursue playing for dancers, for singers, go to a dance school to accompany... would take online lessons from a teacher playing it with a pick when everything else of flamenco they heard or have seen, have seen in books, see other guitarists in their city do with hands...would they think "oh that's cool and original" or will they play it safe ? only Spanish Paco de Lucia's get to be cool and original...when someone outside spain does it ...is considered a mistake or lack of knowledge

I am sure it would be easier and nicer to be PC and say everyone would only judge him on the music ...but that's like telling a kid with the name "Homo" that the other kids at school are too mature to tease him about his name..



he still exactly the same guy...the pick might have gone but his style and everything else is exactly the same...the key element in his playing was him and his respect for detail...nothing to do with the pick...it was a piece of plastic

I wont lie, personally i am glad he threw it away, i still 100% believe is better for him.. and its still the single most inspiring thing i have ever seen here ( the way he completely switched right hand technique in the short amount of time)...and i am proud to be part of the peer pressure for him to throw it away..and hes absolutely fine without it...well that's what i think anyway.....only he can judge that

and about online lessons, aside from the regular stuff... i like the idea of different camera angles, the one about giving students the tools and ideas on how to practice and how to put a falseta together, rithm variations...your extra strengths, apart from the regular stuff imo are: your uncompromising attention to detail, musicality, respect for the tone and your discipline...use that, and build your lessons around that..

i think you will do great and get many students



Mark2 -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 19:53:54)

How about orchestration? Your Alegrias contained some cool bass things and I seem to remember the palmas were nicely matched tt the music. Also, a thing I think is very interesting is the different ways second guitar parts can enhance the main part-the way different harmonies can work and be "more flamenco" than others, also counterpoint, and unison. Nobody is doing that AFAIK.



Mark2 -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 20:11:11)

The way I developed that was playing for dancers. They don't care that much about falsetas, and it's the footwork itself that demands and inspires different ways to accenuate compas, not to mention the calls and breaks.

For example, when a dancer does a corte on 8 and, they might want you to stop as well. That may seem unatural, and the first time you ever do it, you may get lost. Odd place to stop, and something that you might not ever do in solo playing, but that kind of variation is their game. They do all these cool rhythmic things, some of which are designed in part to amuse and delight people who know compas-sometimes it seems like it designed to fake you out, then they bring it right back. In fact, it doesn't just seem like like it, it is.


The other thing is that classes go on for hours, and force you to develop different chord inversions and progressions to keep from going insane. I don't play much anymore, and it's sad how many great falsetas I've forgotten or can hardly play anymore, but because of those 5 years I spent playing for dancers I can play compas for a looooong time without boring myself.


quote:

ORIGINAL: n85ae

My opinion what is lacking, and I've been looking for years.

How to play various compas for extended periods of time, while
keeping it interesting. There is WAY too much falseta's in lessons, and not
near enough how to sit in the back and hold the groove. If there is any
compas in lessons now it's almost always just a couple cycles MAX, and
then falseta's.

Consequently you can learn falseta's but not how to play basic flamenco
properly

Regards,
Jeff



stratos13 -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 19 2012 23:43:41)

NO MORE FALSETAS...my god!
[:D]

I think teaching song accompaniment is very important. What I have never seen is an approach to accompaniment like the one used for pop songs.

The letra given as a text, then the chords and where the chord changes stick with the words of the letra, then a SIMPLE pattern or two to strumm those friggin chords![;)]

I would definately join that!!!![:)]



ToddK -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 20 2012 18:37:58)

quote:

I respectfully disagree, the technique is just a tool...i am sure he wouldn't want people to have been fascinated by his music because of it or have other people dismiss its genuine flamenco validity because of it...and have that as the one thing that set him apart, kind of like a novelty, not in his case not with what he has to offer in a way of music imo...now at least he never has to worry about that ****...just the music....even if i am completely wrong and absolutely everyone else in the world would have not even mention the pick...at least now he never even has to think about or worry about that type of thing...playing wise i cant hear the difference between the pick and no pick

and in this case, for lessons...who who was serious about wanting to learn flamenco guitar the traditional way, and wanted to one day pursue playing for dancers, for singers, go to a dance school to accompany... would take online lessons from a teacher playing it with a pick when everything else of flamenco they heard or have seen, have seen in books, see other guitarists in their city do with hands...would they think "oh that's cool and original" or will they play it safe ? only Spanish Paco de Lucia's get to be cool and original...when someone outside spain does it ...is considered a mistake or lack of knowledge

I am sure it would be easier and nicer to be PC and say everyone would only judge him on the music ...but that's like telling a kid with the name "Homo" that the other kids at school are too mature to tease him about his name..



he still exactly the same guy...the pick might have gone but his style and everything else is exactly the same...the key element in his playing was him and his respect for detail...nothing to do with the pick...it was a piece of plastic

I wont lie, personally i am glad he threw it away, i still 100% believe is better for him.. and its still the single most inspiring thing i have ever seen here ( the way he completely switched right hand technique in the short amount of time)...and i am proud to be part of the peer pressure for him to throw it away..and hes absolutely fine without it...well that's what i think anyway.....only he can judge that

and about online lessons, aside from the regular stuff... i like the idea of different camera angles, the one about giving students the tools and ideas on how to practice and how to put a falseta together, rithm variations...your extra strengths, apart from the regular stuff imo are: your uncompromising attention to detail, musicality, respect for the tone and your discipline...use that, and build your lessons around that..

i think you will do great and get many students


Wow Flo!! I could never have said it better myself. That really floored me.
Its like you took the thoughts straight out of my head!

That means alot to me Florian, thank you amigo.

TK



Florian -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 20 2012 18:58:04)

my absolute pleasure man...we might have not always seen eye to eye on everything , but your attention to detail, feel of compas..tone and your musicality has always been an inspiration

you absolutely have something special to offer and i am excited about what your future holds for you



akatune -> [Deleted] (Jun. 20 2012 22:36:09)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 4 2013 2:13:52



marduk -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 21 2012 7:54:59)

i would like to see more accompaniment lessons with practice videos for baile and cante



Ricardo -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 21 2012 17:36:05)

Intereting to me...most students I have are lower level getting the basics of compas, techniques, etc. Advanced students are more rare and specifics can be looked at. Couple of things that raise eyebrow for me with student requests:

NO falsestas, bored of falsetas....? Flamenco guitar is made of that. Even advanced students are looking for never ending more falsetas to add to the bag they carry around and pull form as needed.

More interesting variations on compas....well, not sure how just basic compas could be boring...most often as I look around compas is THE MAIN issue all students have and trying to develop. More than technique or speed just basic compas and having a good sound feel and tempo. If you are bored doing a basic compas something is wrong.

Compas variations become more interesting as you investigate what is really and truly involved with accompanyment, which saddly can't learn completely or efficiently with only a guitar teacher. But in small doses, you don't go from doing basic time keeper to tomatito over night. As Mark said, some hours in dance class gets you on track much quicker than a one on one lesson of a teacher trying to spend time breaking down and doing super slow repeat of a single compas variation. I comes much much easier once you are a good time keeper to begin with and can try new things on the fly without losing the beat. This ties in with why I don't recommend learning flamenco as "pieces" or complete guitar solos.

finally music theory as applied to flamenco is fun as analysis, but understand MOST maestros and composers of the best famenco have no clue about it at all. I see no need why lower level students struggling with compas would need to waste time learning theory as so much more important disciplines need to be focused on at that stage of learning. Totally different if you are talking advanced experienced accompanists that want understand more of the big picture about what they ALREADY can do. That is a very humble and appropriate approach....but a student learning this FIRST is missing out on the proper discpline required to actually get to a high level in flamenco.


Ok my 2 cents. I would want todd to show Soniquete by paco, nice and slow for me. [;)]



Florian -> RE: online lessons; what's missing? (Jun. 21 2012 19:15:28)

in light of the recent craziness on the forum, i was thinking we need an inspiring and educational post about flamenco playing..

was thinking todk as a taste for what people could expect from your lessons and since we on the topic of your lessons

why not do a thread on good practice and efficient practice techniques...or something on how to learn a falseta...the order, how do you begin, at what speed?...how do you make sure u get all the details (the phrasing, i know u tap the timing of a melody on the table when trying to learn it, id love more on that) etc...how long do you practice parts for ? how small do you brake parts into......just your approach, i would certainly be interested and i bet many others

something...anything to do with playing.....we need something to make this forum about playing again...at the moment i am starving for some inspiration

give people a taste of why i think many of us know you'd be a brilliant teacher



btw..

on your online lessons you cant say exactly what you are thinking all the time [:D][:D]

"That was absolutely awful, shocking! [:'(]...someone f*ing shoot me now...i wish i could get the last 5 minutes of my life back, why are you wasting my time ? you disgust me !!.....ok see you next week [:)]"

jk. ...kind of lol...or maybe it would work !! this could be the thing that makes you different not the pick thing

the other day i had a student who says he wants to do flamenco .. did one lesson with me, just started on technique and simple solea... before asking me if i can transcribe and teach him this ...[&:]....i wanted to speak like you for a sec...but i caved and said "Oh sorry mate, i have a lot on my plate atm"....but i did throw caution into the wind a little and said...that's guy is not doing either flamenco or classical ...its kind of nothing...and his "composition" in places feels like poorly taken ideas from Concierto de Aranjuez.....will be interesting to see if he comes back

should have said in youtube dont search for " best guitarist" "best flamenco guitarist" or "amazing flamenco playing" search for specific things like "solea" etc..




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