RE: arpeggios (Full Version)

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Manitas de Lata -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 29 2023 15:08:39)

Thanks Ricardo ! Great stuff....

You re that guy from youtube , saw you some times about other subjects ;)

Will try again some fundamentals !



devilhand -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 29 2023 15:18:55)

quote:

can you repeat the question? didnt understand

What I asked was if you can sing a melody to yourself and play it on guitar simultaneously.
Another question can you sing a song without hitting off-key notes?



devilhand -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 29 2023 15:30:59)

quote:

you won’t be able to achieve what Vicente is doing by random creation alone, because that first step I mentioned (create your melody FIRST), is no small task.

People don't realize the prerequisite of creating any song or melody is to be able to sing very well. If you can't sing, you have no or little chance. Take Michael Jackson or Mariah Carey as an example. Obviously both can sing pretty well. They wrote world number one hits.
Mariah Carey had someone who harmonized on piano what she sang. They create or fine tune together both melody and chord progression simultaneously. But the main melody comes first.
I doubt Vicente Amigo or any other flamencos compose this way. They come up with chords first then play around with them and try to create melody. This works because flamenco compositions are not really melodic anyway.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 29 2023 16:14:19)

i think that i understood , in my case maybe more lack of chords vocabulary , music theory etc etc
know guys that cant sing nothing , well they can sing horribly like me , but can compose and play beatifully with feeling emotion (im workin on this too)
others (see my post about Javier Conde) cant .
well thats how i tried to play some stuff , i sing and try do reply on the guitar , sometimes i have to go to youtube .
For example , i compose my Gersh. Summertime main intro solo that way.

Vicente seems all about main chords that are catchy and beatifull , plus extensive chord vocabulary , flamenco and jazz
Also easy for al di meola



Mark2 -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 29 2023 16:32:23)

Nope. Antonio Rey said he starts with melody. I'd bet VA is the same. Not melodic? Listen harder.


quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

you won’t be able to achieve what Vicente is doing by random creation alone, because that first step I mentioned (create your melody FIRST), is no small task.

People don't realize the prerequisite of creating any song or melody is to be able to sing very well. If you can't sing, you have no or little chance. Take Michael Jackson or Mariah Carey as an example. Obviously both can sing pretty well. They wrote world number one hits.
Mariah Carey had someone who harmonized on piano what she sang. They create or fine tune together both melody and chord progression simultaneously. But the main melody comes first.
I doubt Vicente Amigo or any other flamencos compose this way. They come up with chords first then play around with them and try to create melody. This works because flamenco compositions are not really melodic anyway.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 29 2023 16:50:27)

Vicente is The flamenco Poet , and one of some overall musician in the world, Antonio is getting that way.

Thats why i like them..the melody , they re poets



Manitas de Lata -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 29 2023 22:10:53)

your falsetas arent easy , cant see your fingers , tried some but went horrible sounds like blues rithym ..

your solea lesson was much easier.... :)

im searching Flamenco for dummies right now



Ricardo -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 12:00:38)

quote:

I doubt Vicente Amigo or any other flamencos compose this way. They come up with chords first then play around with them and try to create melody. This works because flamenco compositions are not really melodic anyway.


Gosh here we go again. NO! First of all, you are wrong about the singing thing, at least singing perfectly on pitch etc. I agree that being able to vocalize to some degree is revealing musical understanding, but for sure not a pre-requisite. Second, Vicente actually does sing, and even has recorded his singing several times. To say flamenco compositions are “not melodic” without any example is also ludicrous. I would only agree some FALSETAS are not singable, or rather the melody has too many jumps and disconnects, and in certain cases I would agree are chord based creations. But at its core flamenco is song forms based on CANTE which is sung melody. While not all falsetas utilize the available cante melodies as a basis, they certainly use the cadential forms that the cante gave rise to in order to retain the “aire” of the palo.



Ricardo -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 12:06:06)

quote:

your falsetas arent easy , cant see your fingers , tried some but went horrible sounds like blues rithym ..

your solea lesson was much easier.... :)

im searching Flamenco for dummies right now


That video was a special request…I requested a falseta and the source was written down and on video for me to use. It is not meant to teach YOU the falseta, rather, how I learn MYSELF. Don’t look for “flamenco for dummies”, cuz there is no such thing. This is not algebra etc. You need to chose a SOURCE which is you feel is “correct”, such as a transcription or CLEAR VIDEO. Then tackle learning it at medium speed ONE PHRASE AT A TIME as I demonstrated. Should go very quickly. My point was something as complex as Tomatito that I was challenged with, took 8 minutes only. Again, chose ONE falseta only at a time.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 12:56:46)

yes , i think my fail falseta was duo to the hammer ons left hand , because it doesnt sound like a falseta but a blues bar , frustrated , but i will try to find very basic step by step with lef hand fingers position explanation , correct position and wich strings to be played (single or same time)

is there any kind of flamenco playing guide here , that shows the steps/goals to be made ?

like

first start with x , next y , and so on



Ricardo -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 15:23:55)

quote:

is there any kind of flamenco playing guide here , that shows the steps/goals to be made ?


Here you go…focus on Mark Indigo and my posts, sorry for the arguments along the way.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=348381&mpage=1&p=2&tmode=1&smode=1&key=



Manitas de Lata -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 15:28:53)

theres no reason to be sorry , i apreciate all the help that i can get , and its hard to get in touch to flamenco aficionados, very close and small comunity in my country.

Thank you for all the help and guidance



devilhand -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 16:59:02)

quote:

To say flamenco compositions are “not melodic” without any example is also ludicrous. I

Any link to flamenco composition that sounds melodic?



devilhand -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 17:01:44)

quote:

But at its core flamenco is song forms based on CANTE which is sung melody. While not all falsetas utilize the available cante melodies as a basis, they certainly use the cadential forms that the cante gave rise to in order to retain the “aire” of the palo.

To me flamenco cante is not as melodic as pop/rock songs we know. In flamenco cante it's difficult to play the correct harmony to melody. Sometimes only 2 chords I and V are enough. Rap songs can be accompanied like this.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 17:16:02)

i can remember now more than 10 songs from Vicente

Album :

Tierra

Memoria de los sentidos

this two are enough to start



Manitas de Lata -> RE: arpeggios (Nov. 30 2023 20:35:52)

José Manuel “ El Pelirrojo”

Funny , same name of my father




Ricardo -> RE: arpeggios (Dec. 1 2023 12:10:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

But at its core flamenco is song forms based on CANTE which is sung melody. While not all falsetas utilize the available cante melodies as a basis, they certainly use the cadential forms that the cante gave rise to in order to retain the “aire” of the palo.

To me flamenco cante is not as melodic as pop/rock songs we know. In flamenco cante it's difficult to play the correct harmony to melody. Sometimes only 2 chords I and V are enough. Rap songs can be accompanied like this.


Yes, I realize 2 chords are very difficult for you to handle.



Piwin -> RE: arpeggios (Dec. 2 2023 1:26:36)

quote:

Yes, I realize 2 chords are very difficult for you to handle.


lol



mark indigo -> RE: arpeggios (Dec. 4 2023 17:40:02)

quote:

Michael Jackson or Mariah Carey
You should just stick to Michael Jackson and Mariah Carey, and leave flamenco alone.... Michael Jackson and Mariah Carey[:D][:D][:D]

quote:

I doubt Vicente Amigo or any other flamencos compose this way. They come up with chords first then play around with them and try to create melody. This works because flamenco compositions are not really melodic anyway.
as usual you have no idea what you are talking about...[8|][8|][8|]

quote:

Any link to flamenco composition that sounds melodic?
pick any martinete, or any other cante a palo seco, it's pure melody and nothing else, i.e. no harmonic accompaniment from guitar...

quote:

To me flamenco cante is not as melodic as pop/rock songs we know. In flamenco cante
blah blah blah - you clearly have no idea what "melody" - as long as you have a single voice/line with variation in pitch, that's melody. Cante flamenco is melody. Solo guitarists like Vicente Amigo are HIGHLY melodic. Rap barely qualifies as melody as it's basically rhymic spoken word poetry.



devilhand -> RE: arpeggios (Dec. 4 2023 19:01:48)

quote:

Cante flamenco is melody.

The most melodic part of flamenco cante is that famous line tiriti tran tran tran tran...



Ricardo -> RE: arpeggios (Dec. 5 2023 11:45:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Cante flamenco is melody.

The most melodic part of flamenco cante is that famous line tiriti tran tran tran tran...


The Colatilla or Cantiñas is the most melodic part of flamenco cante??? WTF. You don’t even realize the part of Alegrias melody that is when the lyrics are used, do you?



mark indigo -> RE: arpeggios (Dec. 5 2023 12:55:48)

quote:

The most melodic part of flamenco cante is that famous line tiriti tran tran tran tran...


As I said, you don't seem to know what "melody" is...

So, ok, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are not a complete ignoranus, and try and explain this thing:

You are using "melodic" as an adjective, a descriptive word, and as such it is SO subjective as to be virtually meaningless, but what it means is "easy on the ear", "catchy", sweet, nice, but those things are all COMPLETELY relative and subjective.

I am using "melody" as a noun, a thing. In music we have melody, rhythm and harmony (also timbre, but keep it simple for now). Melody is a single voice or line with varying pitch, so any solo singer (as in my example of martinete or any other cante a palo seco) is, by definition MELODY. And any time a singer is singing, that is MELODY, and if a guitar is accompanying with chords then they are providing HARMONY. You might find it hard to hear or sing, but that doesn't stop it being melody. Same with hearing the right chords for accompanying, just because YOU find it hard, doesn't stop it being MELODY.

So you find michael jackson and mariah carey and tiriti tran in alegrias "melodic" because they are easy for you. What you really mean is that YOU think the tiriti tran is the nicest melody in flamenco. If you really want to "be a tocaor in 10 years" (10 years! [8|][:D]) then you really need to get over your aversion to flamenco melody. It may not seem "nice" or "sweet" or "easy" to you, but it is still MELODY.



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