RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Full Version)

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Thomas Whiteley -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 15:02:17)

quote:

Bernabe de Moron


That brings back some great memories. I have a CD of him playing with two Americans from the Air Force Base in Morón de la frontera. Great guitarist!!!



Miguel de Maria -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 15:24:16)

Nigel,
the only artist I think is like Manitas is Carlos Montoya, because of his great popularity, his loud and flashy style, and his lack of attention to compas. These are fairly signficant similarities. Firefingers, you will have to ask our patriarch Simon about, because they seem to be acquaintances and it was Simon who was first promoting Sr. Firefingers on this site. Esteban is a guitarist who played here in Scottsdale, AZ for 12 years; he was then "discovered" by the Home Shopping Network, where he sold his CDs and now inexpensive guitars. Esteban is known as a virtuoso guitarist who was mentored and taught by Andres Segovia. His playing style is somewhat of a mix between Ottmar Liebert and Mason Williams.

Although I have a hard time imagining why someone would listen to Manitas when there are people like Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, Serranito, Sabicas, Manolo Sanlucar, Gerardo Nunez, Vicente Amigo, etc. around, I know that this is the case! These are artists of substance and grand accomplishment, while Manitas was basically a fraud from the point of view of flamenco. I would give people who have devoted their lives to flamenco and excellence a chance before someone who merely rode a wave of celebrity and good fortune.

On the other hand, Tonino Balliardo, the lead guitarist of the Gipsy Kings, who of course are descended from Manitas' duo, is excellent, in my opinion. Although he does not play much traditional flamenco, but really fairly stylized rumbas, he is wonderful! A tuneful, exciting, proficient player with a wonderful feel for music and a knack for imparting flamenco feeling to a basically South American form.

If you are an American fan of flamenco guitar, it will be hard to escape Carlos Montoya if your friends and family know about it. I have gotten CM CDs several times,and I have made a good-faith effort to listen to them. But it's hard to listen to his version of flamenco, which breaks the rules of the flamenco I am used to, and played in such a frenetic, crude, and repetitious manner. There are a lot of precious treasures in the recorded history of flamenco, but Carlos and Manitas, whatever their personal qualities or kindness, are not of them.



Escribano -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 15:32:39)

quote:

Firefingers, you will have to ask our patriarch Simon about, because they seem to be acquaintances and it was Simon who was first promoting Sr. Firefingers on this site.


No way [:D] in truth, I was having a dig at him. Stupid hat!



flyeogh -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 18:42:50)

Miguel many thanks for that. Seriously I know your views are well founded and spoken with sincerity. I also know that you know your stuff and can analyse and explore in detail. One day possibly I will be able to do something of the same but in the meantime I will glean what I can - (and nowhere is better than this foro).

But you will appreciate that to find out for yourself and to compare is necessary. Despite the general opinion of those here close to the purity of flamenco that Carlos plays badly one can always find people at the opposite ends of opinion of almost anything. Tom offered "In defence of Carlos Montoya, his abilities as an accompanist for singers and dancers (Carmen Amaya, etc.) was superb! " Tom's opinion I value and it is not a bad accreditation even if he (Carlos not Tom[:)]) is not PDL!

I of course have plenty of recordings and DVDs of PDL and Paco Pena and Nunez and others. However as for help with my learning (not only playing but flamenco in general) quite often these offer little being too complex, advanced and at times esoteric - as good as they might be. I spend a lot of time with Juan Martin materials because I enjoy his music, I can experience it first hand, and I have many different forms (DVD, CD, tab, comments, etc) relating to the same piece (and I can also communicate with him and get a reply – not sure PDL would be so helpful). I have been told by so called Flamencos that he is C**p but that is not my view. But in addition I will listen to anyone and try to get something from it. I can listen to Carlos and study the compas and enjoy the experience even if he is not the best.

I saw the Gypsy Kings once. It was open air, the stage was packed with musicians (not just the glitter band but 4 or 5 session musicians as well), there were fireworks and plenty to eat and drink. It may not be PDL but it was a great evening and based on the encore and smiles many enjoyed what they did. Who knows how many went on to discover Flamenco for real!! Should I have not gone because they suffer from a lack of compas?

OK Plata sounds like a freak of the promotional industry and from a few mp3 recordings I have discovered on the net I think your opinion may well be spot on. I cannot however lump Carlos in with him.

Enjoy[:D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 19:24:12)

Juan Martin's DVD is great, as he starts from ground zero and doesn't skip any steps. I think he makes great educational material. Carlos was a known accompaniast, but it is his solo playing which is both available and of dubious quality. I highly suggest Ramon Montoya, his genius uncle for early era flamenco guitar.



Ricardo -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 24 2005 7:07:27)

A lot of flamencos and flamenco aficionados underestimate the rumba. The french gypsies like Manitas that specialized in it, are really great at it, especially guitarwise. There are details there that are easily overlooked by flamencos who spend more time on 12 count rhythms or tangos. But Manitas did choose to record bulerias, which he did not truely understand or feel. Why?

I have had the opportunity to jam w/ the Gypsy Kings a few times. It was great. They can do palmas por bulerias, and sing fandangos naturales and tangos/tanguillo ala Camaron. They don't know how to sing the main forms of flamenco, but they are BIG aficionados. They can "fake" it for fun. Tonino is the only one who IS a flamenco, and can play ALL the forms well. We jammed on bulerias, his style is PDL from the 70's. He has equal fun playing both bulerias and rumba, and so do I. Playing rumba is not just about making money, and it is not "South American", it is very Spanish. At least the rumba we are talking about.

I don't think less of Manitas and the Kings because they play lots of rumba, they are true masters of it. In Jerez they do bulerias all day and night. In the French Gypsy culture it is rumba. They do what they do, and at least they are big aficionados of flamenco, just like me. Not everyone inspired by Paco de Lucia can play as good as him, and learn that much being born outside of Spain.

The singers in the Kings don't know how to sing bulerias, that is for sure. But honestly, I don't understand why. They are so good at rumba/tangos, but that is all they like to sing, but it would not be hard for them if they WANTED to learn it. But even in Spain, not every singer is required to master ALL the palos. Anyway, I consider it a great honor to have jammed w/ them.

Ricardo



Escribano -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 24 2005 7:32:58)

quote:

Anyway, I consider it a great honor to have jammed w/ them.


So would I! I came across a fair bit of Rumba Catalan when I lived in the South of France, parts of which are also Catalan. It got me into flamenco and I am not complaining.

BTW - traditional Catalonian music is truly awful, lots of horns, drums and dancing the Sardinas in a big circle, yuk!



Miguel de Maria -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 24 2005 15:04:30)

When I visited Barcelona for a few days, I asked around and tried to get a listen to some rumba, but wasn't able to. Actually, they did have a rumbero come to a tablao I attended, but he only played a few songs. It seemed that he pretty much just kept playing the same rhythm, and the only interesting thing is that at breaks, he would do a big descending slide on the E string.

Ricardo, what are the great things about the GK guys as far as playing rumba? Is it just a matter of getting that groove going and "selling it" with the singing? Or are you talking about the leads? My question is because I really like rumbas. They are fun and seem to have a lot of potential for many things, one of them being a crossover appeal. Of course, the GK, but also Ottmar Liebert and even Paco's Entre Dos Aguas are all rumbas

When I listen to Paco Pena's rumbas, I think they have a very South American feel.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 25 2005 19:41:14)

Ricardo;

Without question the Gypsy Kings have great feeling for rumba flamenca. In fact I truly enjoy listening to them. It seems to me that different areas of flamenco (areas of Spain or southern France) take different interests as far as to what is "important".

There is a good deal of prejudice in Spain and it is always easy to look down upon someone else for whatever reason.

My preference is to enjoy myself. I remember many good guitarists in the early 1960’s in southern Spain (the days of Franco) who would do well in any flamenco setting. I would wonder why they did not make recordings and thereby be “discovered”! Things were different then and not too much opportunity existed even for those who could play well.

A few good flamenco guitarists I met had no interest in commercial flamenco. They would play for family or friends and that was it.



mousemat -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Aug. 15 2005 16:29:25)

quote:

"The Man with Silver Hands"


I believe that this was meant as a derisory term by the Spaniards. Something along the line of all show and no substance, though please correct me if I am wrong about this.

mousemat



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