MANITAS DE PLATA (Full Version)

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JBASHORUN -> MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 11:24:44)

Hi, I am still adding to my Flamenco CD collection and came across the guitarist Manitas De Plata. I have heard good things about his work. I wanted to know if his music is good, and which of his albums is best to buy. Apparently his finest ones are not available on CD, which is a shame. But there is one, "Live at Carnegie Hall" which has very good reviews. Unfortunately, I can only find one copy available (through www.Amazon.com) and that costs $130 second hand!!! Is it really worth that much? If anyone happens to have a copy, I'd be interested to hear what its like. And if you are willing to make me a copy of it so I can hear for myself, that would be very much appreciated. thanks.



James



duende -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 11:31:18)

I can´t stand Manitas...and Carlos Montoya. But thats me.



Guest -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 12:18:18)

Hola James

Manitas is the most reviled flamenco guitarist of all time. Mostly because he had no compás and presented a skewed picture of flamenco. But also because he was enormously successful: he played a Reyes which had been signed by Dalí. He toured everywhere to enormous acclaim.

I do not like to criticize him too much, because he was the first "flamenco" guitarist I ever heard live. I did not know he was not flamenco and thought he was sensational, but thanks to him and his singer, José Ballardos, I became hooked on cante. Do not forget that these people are fathers of the Gipsy Kings, masters of rumba and perfectly capable of bulería, the most difficult palo of all. I still think he had arte.

I have his first solo LP, but it is in Ireland and I am not.

Suerte

Sean



JBASHORUN -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 15:25:05)

Wow... I had no idea he was so bad. It just goes to show that you shouldn't always believe the reviews that other people (such as Amazon.com members) give albums. But it makes you wonder.... if he was so bad, how come he was so popular?!


cheers,



James



Miguel de Maria -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 15:59:52)

James,
he was popular precisely because he WAS so bad!

Skip him and Carlos... when you compare him to other flamencos, you will find him lacking and it will be a waste of money. I have received 2 Carlos Montoya CDs for presents, and I couldn't get through either of them. They make decent frisbees.



Escribano -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 16:25:08)

quote:

But it makes you wonder.... if he was so bad, how come he was so popular?!


A showman and he knew the right people. Manitas de Plomo is a flamenco in-joke.



flyeogh -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 16:38:22)

Hey these guys aren't bad. They just are not what you find attractive within a limited specialist viewpoint. They earnt a living, they pleased a lot of people, and hopefully they enjoyed life. To entertain you do not need to be a purest. I'm listening to carlos montoya at the moment (interesting how people saying he is bad made me put him on[8|] if he is crap then i want to be crap to. I like raw crudeness[:D].

And as said above the popular guys introduce a lot more people to flamenco than your specialist barrier breaking guru's. For me the more popular flamenco the better whatever form; just look at how opera has sidelined itself with its elitist approach.

OK if your a purest there are others but "so bad" is a bit harsh [:D][:D][:D]



duende -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 16:47:39)

I haven´t got any problems with Paco de gastor or Diego del gastor.
They´re a bit rough as well. But they give me something i like.

Henrik



Ron.M -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 16:59:18)

James,
Manitas rose to fame in the mid '60s when ordinary people didn't travel abroad much on holidays and foreign lands were strange exotic places.
The legend went that once upon a time a French photographer was doing some work down in the South of France, when he suddenly came across this poor Gypsy guy playing guitar like he'd never heard before.
He then, through his contacts introduced him to a promoter etc and Manitas was launched on to the public as "The World's Greatest Living Gypsy Guitarist".
An undiscovered Wonder of the age.
He was photographed at parties given by the beautiful people.. Pablo Picasso, Briget Bardot etc.
He became a phenomenon and played to packed houses all over the World.

Like Sean...I fell for it all too and went to see him and thought he was great.

He was a great showman, great Gypsy looks and style...the genuine thing.
And he played (for that time) a quite amazing and flamboyant style of guitar, just at the time when about every kid in Europe and America etc had a guitar due to the Beatles phenomenon! LOL!

He never actually claimed to play Flamenco....just his own style.

But he would do things like start of with a bit of Tarantas, morph into a Soleares, then a bit of Granainas, and finish off with a blazing Rumba, bashing hell out of the guitar and bringing the audience to their feet cheering and applauding!

God knows what the folk in Andalucia must have been thinking!!

He was definitely unique though, and a great entertainer!

cheers

Ron



Kate -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 17:04:55)

Here's a great Bio about him, looks like Manitas career can be blamed on Picasso, Dali, and the Americans [:D]

http://www.esbb.net/biogra_en.htm

Its an interesting biography, particularly in that it does no mention flamenco at all.

Kate
( hey nearly 500 messages !!!!)



duende -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 17:12:18)

Not bad Kate. You just nead 2 more.[:)] When can we hear a sample of you singing or playing guitar in the upload section??[:)]



JBASHORUN -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 17:27:44)

thanks for the comments everyone... very interesting stuff! It seems "The Man with Silver Hands" was good at something, although strictly speaking, it may not have been "Flamenco" in its purest form. I'd agree that not keeping in compas must have confused the "real" Flamenco guitarristas. However, Nigel does have a point that there is a certain amount of snobbery involved too. And I think anything [8|] (well, almost anything!) that brings Flamenco to a wider audience cannot be all bad. As it seems that some of you guys were lured into this genre by guys like him! I have to admit that the sound clip that accompanied the link that Kate posted was kinda catchy! However, I don't think I will be splashing out the $130 for that CD though... but if any members are brave enough to admit owning it, I'd still be interested in checking it out just for the hell of it!



cheers for all your opinions!




James



Miguel de Maria -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 18:03:11)

I don't think it's snobbery not to like Manitas, it's just a matter of taste. If you like it, maybe you should check out Firefingers or Esteban (everyone see my post in the Off Topic section for more on Esteban).



duende -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 18:10:56)

I have 2 Manitas lp´s havent gotten past the first 2 songs on any of them.



Florian -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 18:40:03)

Damn snobs [:D] I see you up there looking down on Manitas !

.... serious I dont acctualy have an opinion about this I dont think i ever heard a full song of his, i just feel like jumping into the convo :)



Florian -> [Deleted] (Jun. 22 2005 18:51:34)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 22 2005 19:00:46



duende -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 19:05:27)

i demand to see your last post!![:D]



Florian -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 19:07:24)

allrighty than ... I feel that my work here is done , i am gonna go play with my dog........



Florian -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 19:09:06)

oh it was nothing nasty i was just trying to draw something funny that didnt work [8|]



flyeogh -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 19:16:19)

Florian I thought it worked very well. A picture of the statue of Liberty I think [:D]

As for Miguel I think he is a closited Plata fan. How come miguel you know so many artists of this style and quality??[:D]



Patrick -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 19:27:18)

quote:

They make decent frisbees


That exactly what I did with the one and only CD I had of his. It was one of my most enjoyable moments in flamenco, to see that baby sale into the trashcan, never to be heard from again!



Ron.M -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 20:05:06)

The thing is that Manitas was essentially an entertainer.
Do I feel "conned" that I parted with my money to buy a couple of LP's and go to see a show?
Of course not.
I got good entertainment at good value.

Thing is about Manitas, is that he really excelled in doing a 4 minute spot.
Anything more than that got a bit boring.

So his concerts were filled with his relations "Los Balliardos" to pad out the gig and Manitas would do say 4 solos in a 1 and a half hour concert.

And that is the essence of it all.
It was all style and no action, unlike say Sabicas, who had substance to his music, so you could enjoy a whole evening of Flamenco music.

But like any music, the listener has to come at least halfway.
The General Public were and are not interested in putting any effort into intellectually or spiritually venturing into music.
They wanted a 4 minute thrill after having dinner and a few drinks....
And Manitas supplied that, with a great deal of panache and style.
He didn't set out to be famous...things just happened around him.

A quote here from "The Eagle has Landed"...

"A wink from a pretty girl at a party may not necessarily result in climax...but a man would be a fool not to push the opportunity as far as it will go..."

LOL!

Ron



JBASHORUN -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 21:59:10)

Thanks again everyone.

Miguel, I have to admit that you may be right... "snobbery" might be slightly too strong a word to use. And it is not my position to use it, having never heard a single De Plata song. However, I have managed to track down the $130 CD for a mere $10, so I will be able to see for myself just how bad this dude is. If he is as bad as you say he is, I will use the CD as a coaster to prevent coffee mug marks on the kitchen table.

Ron, thanks for your balanced view of this guitarist.

Florian, thank you also for your constructive contributions [:D]




Cheers,


James



Florian -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 22:26:47)

dont mention it buddy, not knowing something about something never stoped me from jumping head first into the conversation in the past and it wont stop me in the future[:)]



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 22 2005 22:58:54)

James;

My wife’s family is fom Zaragoza, Spain, and my father in law told me, “No one is more prejudice than a Spaniard”! You may be hated because of the family you belong to, your place of residence or for whatever reason that seems appropriate.

Manitas de Plata, the worlds greatest flamenco guitarist! Wow! Yes, I remember the marketing. There are those that despise his work because he is a Gitano from Southern France and not Spain. There are those who hate him because he could not carry compas in a bucket let alone play it. And yes there are those who love him – I am sure his mother is in that category! [:D] You cannot hate anyone who has a mother!

Here is a true story. Manitas de Plata was giving a concert in the United States during the late 1960’s and Sabicas and his brother Diego went to see the concert. After a few minutes (or less) the two brothers from Pamplona, Spain left the theater. They thought it was all a joke! Flamenco? No!

Personally, I will not purchase any recordings made by MDP. That is my own decision.

In defense of Carlos Montoya, his abilities as an accompanist for singers and dancers (Carmen Amaya, etc.) was superb! He was the one who started flamenco guitar solos as a career, and at the insistence of his wife did so.

Carlos was a good human being and I enjoyed talking to him. He was kind enough to show me a few things about flamenco guitar that were very important as well as encourage me on many occasions. We called him the carpenter because of his right hand technique. When he played accompaniment his compas was like a clock!

Carlos was very introverted and extremely generous. He liked people and loved flamenco.

By the way many years ago I played accompaniment for his niece Rosa Montoya. Time flies! [:D]



flyeogh -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 6:46:12)

Tom thanks for a separation between Carlos the carpenter, of whom I have one CD which I like, and Plata of whom I know nothing. And now like James I will buy a Plata CD just so I can make up my own mind. (I’m afraid that the view of a Spaniard on a Frenchman, formulated in a couple of minutes, has no sway with me, no matter who he is).

OK if it is bad then as said it has a use. Mine, try getting lots of them (CDs) and making a dragon for the kids. Get the kids to paint them or dip them in old paint, create the dragon by overlapping them like scales, a minidisk makes a good eye, and then superglue. Then hang it on their bedroom wall. [:D]



el ted -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 8:42:47)

I remember Manitas de Plata appearing as a guest on the Des O'Connor show several times on TV in the 1960's. I also have to admit that it was Manitas, along with early package holidays to Spain as a kid that got me into Flamenco. His music was everywhere at the time! I do have several cassettes of him and Jose performing live at various juergas etc, they are mostly rumbas, and in one memorable piece, after having played for several minutes, he stops, then starts the piece again from the beginning!
There, confession over!



Kate -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 11:34:19)

quote:


When can we hear a sample of you singing or playing guitar in the upload section??[:)]


Je je je very funny, you should hear me sing a fandango ( NOT) The kids from Taller de Compás used to make me sing so they could have a good laugh. Once Remedios Amaya made me sing at a party, she's a hard woman to say no to. I did a Tom Jones song " Its not unusual" por bulería. Once was enough so dont expect me to record it and upload it. As for guitar, I can play quite a few Jonny Cash, Chuck Berry, Joni Mitchel, Dylan numbers, but dont think its appropiate here [;)]

And HEY I just hit my 500 da dah [:)]

Kate



frhout -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 11:58:53)

My first experience in flamenco came in 1977, a friend gave me a tape with Sabicas, Bernabe de Moron and Manitas de Plata. I thought Sabicas and Bernabe were brilliant, and I haven't changed my mind since then. I was more sceptical about Manitas. I got to France for the first time in the '80s and got some Manitas' LPs which were plentiful at the time, and even now. I noticed some rhythms were broken, missed notes which were so apparent even to the amateur ear, and we often hear things during a piece like "Manitas de Plata, que bueno, ole".

A few weeks ago, Chico and the Gypsies (Chico left the group Gypsy Kings) were invited on French telly on a Saturday, the very special guest was Manitas, who is now in his Eighties, with respectable long grey hair. There was an introduction of Manitas by Alain Delon, who said with a degree of solemnness and admiration that Manitas de Plata was the "patriarch". Chico added that without Manitas, they would have been nothing. The presenter mentioned, quite fittingly, that there would be no atmosphere without Chico (should I add, Gypsy Kings) in a discotheque [in Cote d'Azur].

I don't have a lot of his records, but I certainly won't buy anymore. Just leave Alain Delon and Brigitte Bardot to clear the stock.



duende -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Jun. 23 2005 13:42:02)

SO!! you play the guitar. Just record some flamenco struming then?
Congrats to the 500 posts ta DAAAAA!![:D][:D]

Henrik



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